Mikel John Obi

[Phil Driver 503]

According to Jose's press conference ,not injured and not in the team tomorrow? Without Rammy as well.

[robsblubot 3,262]

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples.

Really? How do those stats even relate to the player himself? And so you think we should have benched Drogba from 2008 to 2011? Should Rooney be a bench-warmer for united? And Barcelona should have gotten rid of Messi a couple of seasons ago?

Why did we play better and won far more games without Drogba vs with him or it was the other way around? Did Barcelona play better without Messi than with him or has it always been the other way around? I am not saying the player is the sole responsible for the teams performance, but at some point you need to assess whether the SYSTEM, the TEAM, does better with or without him.

And you've been tying his short-passing completion (a completely useless stat) for the past 50 pages or so to quality. That's precisely where we completely disagree; you find his contribution adequate while I find it completely inadequate based on his embarrassing contribution in attack (if you go by individual numbers alone).

again, we will find out soon enough how important a player Mikel is for Mourinho.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Why did we play better and won far more games without Drogba vs with him or it was the other way around? Did Barcelona play better without Messi than with him or has it always been the other way around? I am not saying the player is the sole responsible for the teams performance, but at some point you need to assess whether the SYSTEM, the TEAM, does better with or without him.

And you've been tying his short-passing completion (a completely useless stat) for the past 50 pages or so to quality. That's precisely where we completely disagree; you find his contribution adequate while I find it completely inadequate based on his embarrassing contribution in attack (if you go by individual numbers alone).

again, we will find out soon enough how important a player Mikel is for Mourinho.

Well, if you read last page, you would have seen that we had a 0% loss without Drogba for about three seasons, and that was when he was at his peak. United had a better win percentage without Rooney last season and Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi a couple of seasons ago. So the win/loss percentage with and without a player, which you said is the only one that mattered would have suggested that those players are causing their teams to lose when in fact they are the key players.

How can you deny that it is due to quality when he plays the most passes (and the most forward passes among our midfielders) at the highest accuracy in the whole team? And how can pass completion be useless? How do you score if you can't pass and how do you not concede if you keep giving the ball away with missed passes?

You might not like this style of football, but our system requires a holding midfielder and we have been playing with a holding midfielder who sits deep and makes the easy passes whether it be Ramires or Mikel.

[robsblubot 3,262]

Well, if you read last page, you would have seen that we had a 0% loss without Drogba for about three seasons, and that was when he was at his peak. United had a better win percentage without Rooney last season and Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi a couple of seasons ago. So the win/loss percentage with and without a player, which you said is the only one that mattered would have suggested that those players are causing their teams to lose when in fact they are the key players.

How can you deny that it is due to quality when he plays the most passes (and the most forward passes among our midfielders) at the highest accuracy in the whole team? And how can pass completion be useless? How do you score if you can't pass and how do you not concede if you keep giving the ball away with missed passes?

You might not like this style of football, but our system requires a holding midfielder and we have been playing with a holding midfielder who sits deep and makes the easy passes whether it be Ramires or Mikel.

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

[Phil Driver 503]

None of those stats relate to Drogba's ,Messi's,Rooney's contribution when they were in the team ,they will be very positive

.When these players play you win more than you lose,another red herring like the "Action areas" I am afraid . To suggest that when these players play they could end up with play/win stats like Mikel or Dave is obscene.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

It simply comes down to what you expect/want out of a defensive midfielder. Citing goal and assist totals from a true defensive midfielder is ridiculous because that's not their job at all. According to you, Makalele was useless because he contributed almost nothing offensively. Same with "being creative". Teams don't have 11 creative players. You don't need your defensive midfielder to be creative. It's just not his job. Mikel is certainly not an elite player but he's a very decent defensive midfielder and he does his job (staying in his lanes, tackling, not turning the ball over) very well unfortunately for him, Mikel does things that people don't appreciate. To me, he is a more valuable offensive player than Luiz whose sum contributions are a massive negative to the team. Yes, he can score a couple of goals, but if it takes 60 shots to get them, it hurts the team. Yes, he can make a great pass, but if it takes 5 turnovers to get it, it hurts the team. There is incredible value in keeping possession as there is in covering for defenders who are out of position. You could also see against Everton, the way Mikel covered for players all over the pitch when Cole and Luiz especially were out of position. I can appreciate wanting to upgrade, but the hatred of Mikel is so completely insane and hard to understand.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The quote you mentioned from last page is incomplete: how many games? what are they? Where were they played? The list you've been given for Mikel had all those! Once again, I'd be extremely worried if the team I was part performed better without me.

Because short passes are easy! Have you even played semi-professionally? I am NOT a good player and still always had an easy time with short passing, especially without pressure - even my long ones weren't too bad.

You keep saying that about our system, but Mikel has never become more than a rotation player and we don't even have a sub for the DM position with Romeu on loan. Also, I look at the other top sides and they all play without one pure holding mid like Mikel. They play with players who can create and score on occasion. Who are far more involved in the attacking process than Mikel can ever be.

It's not about style, it's a bout quality or lack thereof. I don't think Mikel has good technique because he can't shoot for his life, can't dribble, can't play long balls. Isn't creative, as his 0 assists will showcase. He just has a hard time in tight spaces.

Rooney missed 11 matches from 38 last season for united including two games against liverpool. Drogba missed a whole lot of games in those three seasons because there were two AFCON's in there and that's not counting his injuries. Winning or losing cannot be attributed to one player and it does not necessarily mean the team played better. We were terrible against Villa but still won while we were much better against Everton but lost. But then you make the conclusion from that stat that the team played better without Mikel even though he was MOTM!

Just for the record, Mikel does not only play short passes, last season, he had the longest average pass length between anyone who played in the pivot (joint highest with Lampard IIRC). But short passes are not easy. If they are then why do top players even like Lampard miss some in every game. One or two short passes are easy, but getting 55 out of 60 in a game correct is not. That consistency is where the quality is.

Most top teams play with a holding midfielder. United have carrick who plays the exact same game of Mikel. Tottenham currently have Paulinho who is no where near as good as Mikel. Arsenal have Arteta who is good on the ball but can't defend and occupy spaces like Mikel. City play with three in midfield so it's different, but the used to have Barry for the job and now he's doing it at Everton. Even Barcelona would not be half as effective as they are now without the best holding midfielder currently in the world that is Busquets.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Mikel does things that people don't appreciate.

Is that all people, or just Chelsea supporters?

How are you able to 'appreciate' these gifts when others can't?

[robsblubot 3,262]

It simply comes down to what you expect/want out of a defensive midfielder. Citing goal and assist totals from a true defensive midfielder is ridiculous because that's not their job at all. According to you, Makalele was useless because he contributed almost nothing offensively. Same with "being creative". Teams don't have 11 creative players. You don't need your defensive midfielder to be creative. It's just not his job. Mikel is certainly not an elite player but he's a very decent defensive midfielder and he does his job (staying in his lanes, tackling, not turning the ball over) very well unfortunately for him, Mikel does things that people don't appreciate. To me, he is a more valuable offensive player than Luiz whose sum contributions are a massive negative to the team. Yes, he can score a couple of goals, but if it takes 60 shots to get them, it hurts the team. Yes, he can make a great pass, but if it takes 5 turnovers to get it, it hurts the team. There is incredible value in keeping possession as there is in covering for defenders who are out of position. You could also see against Everton, the way Mikel covered for players all over the pitch when Cole and Luiz especially were out of position. I can appreciate wanting to upgrade, but the hatred of Mikel is so completely insane and hard to understand.

Makelele *was* because it was a different time where those type of players were indeed used. Their "job" has changed. Where is Munich's pure DM? How about Real? Or Barca? makelele had a lot more aggression and pace than Mikel btw.

Please notice the terms you've used to describe Mikel: decent, not elite... well pardon me for wanting better than "decent" and "not elite."

And yet, David, the player you dislike, is a sure starter for one of the top Nationals Teams in the world, is sought after by a number of top managers and teams, including Barca and Munich. The same can't be said of Mikel. Sorry, but I will stick with the evidence here.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Is that all people, or just Chelsea supporters?

How are you able to 'appreciate' these gifts when others can't?

That "many" people don't appreciate.

[robsblubot 3,262]

Rooney missed 11 matches from 38 last season for united including two games against liverpool. Drogba missed a whole lot of games in those three seasons because there were two AFCON's in there and that's not counting his injuries. Winning or losing cannot be attributed to one player and it does not necessarily mean the team played better. We were terrible against Villa but still won while we were much better against Everton but lost. But then you make the conclusion from that stat that the team played better without Mikel even though he was MOTM!

Just for the record, Mikel does not only play short passes, last season, he had the longest average pass length between anyone who played in the pivot (joint highest with Lampard IIRC). But short passes are not easy. If they are then why do top players even like Lampard miss some in every game. One or two short passes are easy, but getting 55 out of 60 in a game correct is not. That consistency is where the quality is.

Most top teams play with a holding midfielder. United have carrick who plays the exact same game of Mikel. Tottenham currently have Paulinho who is no where near as good as Mikel. Arsenal have Arteta who is good on the ball but can't defend and occupy spaces like Mikel. City play with three in midfield so it's different, but the used to have Barry for the job and now he's doing it at Everton. Even Barcelona would not be half as effective as they are now without the best holding midfielder currently in the world that is Busquets.

I don't think Rooney is very interesting because he is on the bench and has been second option to RVP for quite some time...

No, the difficulty in short passing is ALL about pressure! The deeper you are, the easier it is to complete them.

Without pressure a player will not miss a single short pass...

[Phil Driver 503]

Makelele was useless going forward ,his shooting was almost as bad as Mikel's ,what a DM though .

Anyone who suggests we should compare Messi's/Drogba's win/play stats with Mikel's is clearly not of sane mind.

Lets have a look at Mikel's stats even further great pass/completion figure high 80's % .

Very good . If that is so brilliant why does that not translate into Chelsea winning more games when he plays ,bearing in mind he is excellent? This very valuable contribution must feed through to the aim ,Chelsea winning matches ,it does not and that is because slow,negative passing and not being a good defensive midfielder aka Maka does not help Chelsea win more matches than they win/draw despite us being a very succesful club ,his stats are more in line with a relegation team.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Makelele *was* because it was a different time where those type of players were indeed used. Their "job" has changed. Where is Munich's pure DM? How about Real? Or Barca?

Please notice the terms you used to describe Mikel: decent, not elite... well pardon me to want better than "decent" and "not elite."

And yet, David, the player you dislike, is a sure starter for one of the top Nationals Teams in the world, is sought after by a number of top managers and teams, including Barca and Munich. The same can't be said of Mikel. Sorry, but I will stick with the evidence here.

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

[robsblubot 3,262]

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

I don't completely disagree with what you said, except of course about the stuff I did not say (about Luiz). Luiz is a great CB, but too old to move to a DM position. I have no doubt if he played as a DM since 20yo he'd be a lot better than Mikel, just because he is a better natural footballer.

I just think that all players you listed are indeed better than Mikel in passing, pace (his main weakness in defense) even not mentioning attacking which is a bonus. Also remember Mikel has zero assists, which is pretty rare specially in combination with a zero goal tally.

[OneMoSalah 8,619]

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

This....

[Ainsley Harriott 2,732]

Makelele was useless going forward ,his shooting was almost as bad as Mikel's ,what a DM though .

Anyone who suggests we should compare Messi's/Drogba's win/play stats with Mikel's is clearly not of sane mind.

Lets have a look at Mikel's stats even further great pass/completion figure high 80's % .

Very good . If that is so brilliant why does that not translate into Chelsea winning more games when he plays ,bearing in mind he is excellent? This very valuable contribution must feed through to the aim ,Chelsea winning matches ,it does not and that is because slow,negative passing and not being a good defensive midfielder aka Maka does not help Chelsea win more matches than they win/draw despite us being a very succesful club ,his stats are more in line with a relegation team.

Bla bla bla bla, give it a fucking rest

[The only place to be 11,313]

That "many" people don't appreciate.

That's not what you said.

Either way, Chelsea supporters (and supporters in general) were able to 'appreciate' exactly what Claude Makelele did in the team. They knew just how important he was, yet apparently they can't do the same with Mikel.

Why is that? Maybe your premise is just wrong. Maybe you and a select few aren't blessed with a gift of being able to appreciate things 'many people' don't.

Just a thought.

[Phil Driver 503]

Bla bla bla bla, give it a fucking rest

You can do better than that ,put up that picture of your mother again,