The Mourinho Thread

[Barbara 15,149]

Did I say that? Nope. I said losing 6 of those 8 is a bad record for Jose's standards and there is, in my opinion at least, a clear reason why he consistent fails at that stage apart from the excuse of 'oh there's lots of good teams at that stage and Jose always has the worse team'.

I edited my post and am waiting for your analysis about the best manager in the world's work on those two matches...

the excuse isn't that the other teams are better, but that at this stage anything can happen like Chelsea beating Barcelona in the Camp Nou managed by Roberto bloody di Matteo - tactics experts.

[The Chels 2,502]

Btw, I haven't read how Barcelona completely outplayed Atletico a couple of weeks ago and how they scrapped a win this weekend against a team near the relegation zone in SPAIN with a robbed penalty. could you analyze those and Simeone's job on both occasions please, or link me to where you already wrote your thoughts about it if you already did?

Barcelona at the Nou Camp when at their best are unplayable (yet didn't defeat Atletico the whole of last season). Jose would of course know all about that. Liverpool and Tottenham, who we made to look like world beaters, are nowhere near that standard and would never dominate Atletico like they did us. You're going to moan about Atletico's playing style after they had the core of their squad ripped out? The fact they're still competing is unbelievable. I'd like (not) to see us cope with losing 3 of our best players and having to rely on the likes of Torres! If you expect Simeone to be playing brilliant football every week while competing on that budget with Barca/Real then there's not much to say. Is it unreasonable to expect Jose to have this side not be so defensively vulnerable and offensively poor against big teams? I don't think so.

the excuse isn't that the other teams are better, but that at this stage anything can happen like Chelsea beating Barcelona in the Camp Nou managed by Roberto bloody di Matteo - tactics experts.

We were clearly outplayed in that tie. Could you let me know of an example when Mourinho's side clearly dominated the tie, missed chance after chance and were extremely unlucky not to go through to the final? At least that way we can say Mourinho's poor CL SFs record is down to bad luck rather than poor tactics. Any idea?

[kellzfresh 7,229]

@thechels

What makes athletico better is because they also hold possession under pressure in big games, that's our real weakness and not pressing like you think. If we improve our possession play to conserve energy and relieve pressure we would be even better in the big games. The time they tried to sit back totally, they lost the Champions League final. So their defense isn't as impenetrable as you think.

[The Chels 2,502]

@thechels

What makes athletico better is because they also hold possession under pressure in big games, that's our real weakness and not pressing like you think. If we improve our possession play to conserve energy and relieve pressure we would be even better in the big games. The time they tried to sit back totally, they lost the Champions League final. So their defense isn't as impenetrable as you think.

The end of the CL final is not a good example to use of Atletico defending. How often do they defend so deep with no pressing? Hardly ever. They had absolutely no outlet with their 2 best offensive players, Turan and Costa, injured. Luis was also just taken off injured, they only had 2 subs to use after the early Costa one, and they were obviously tired from a long season and a title-decider against Barcelona the week before while Real Madrid were able to rest all their best players.

To play like that was not their intention. Their final La Liga game with Barca - they could have played for the draw but went out to attack even at 1-1. Against us at HT it was 1-1 and they could have just sat back but they went for the kill. You cannot accuse them of actively choosing to sit back at the complete expense of attack like you can with Jose. Also where do you think their clever 1-2s and ability to hold the ball against the big teams (e.g. against us at Stamford Bridge or their last game against Real) comes from? Simeone of course. Those players are not better footballers than the ones in our team.

[LAM09 7,100]

Some of the decisions he has made this season have baffled me.

[Barbara 15,149]

Barcelona at the Nou Camp when at their best are unplayable (yet didn't defeat Atletico the whole of last season). Jose would of course know all about that. Liverpool and Tottenham, who we made to look like world beaters, are nowhere near that standard and would never dominate Atletico like they did us. You're going to moan about Atletico's playing style after they had the core of their squad ripped out? The fact they're still competing is unbelievable. I'd like (not) to see us cope with losing 3 of our best players and having to rely on the likes of Torres! If you expect Simeone to be playing brilliant football every week while competing on that budget with Barca/Real then there's not much to say. Is it unreasonable to expect Jose to have this side not be so defensively vulnerable and offensively poor against big teams? I don't think so.

We were clearly outplayed in that tie. Could you let me know of an example when Mourinho's side clearly dominated the tie, missed chance after chance and were extremely unlucky not to go through to the final? At least that way we can say Mourinho's poor CL SFs record is down to bad luck rather than poor tactics. Any idea?

You didn't analyze anything - exactly as I expected.

You made excuses - it's been a long time this Barcelona have been unplayable. Simeone could have turned this around in the break if he's this wonder, but he couldn't.

If three players leave the team and they can't beat a relegation zone side without a robbed penalty maybe they should sell the rest as well as there isn't much they can aim in a season.

My point isn't to discredit Simeone or Atleti is to make you realize sometimes managers don't have all the answers, players have bad days and some things just don't work out

We - the father of all wasteful teams - have in many occasions dominated and didn't win - regardless if in a tie or not. That's the point, for others - where the grass is always greener - there are tons of excuses and José became the one trick pony that can't get passed SF because he's a coward.

And that's coming from someone that is far from happy with José lately, but as usual, this forum is overly harsh in the criticism. There isn't middle ground or common sense. It's either the best thing since sliced bread or the player(s), manager aren't good enough.

Maybe instead of signing new players and managers, some people should sign a new club and go support Bayern, Barça, Atletico... it's not like they're English teams, so I don't even consider it cheating or betrayal.

[The Chels 2,502]

You didn't analyze anything - exactly as I expected. You made excuses - it's been a long time this Barcelona have been unplayable. Simeone could have turned this around in the break if he's this wonder, but he couldn't. If three players leave the team and they can't beat a relegation zone side without a robbed penalty maybe they should sell the rest as well as there isn't much they can aim in a season. My point isn't to discredit Simeone or Atleti is to make you realize sometimes managers don't have all the answers, players have bad days and some things just don't work out

My analysis is that they didn't have their best game going forward but made sure they would not concede and inevitably won. Granada has 5 shots on goal, 2 on target. On the same weekend we were completely dominated by Newcastle in the first half while also having a poor game going forward. We conceded 11 shots, 5 on target and they hit the woodwork a couple of times too. With regard to the bolded bit, need need I remind you of the game against QPR and how we couldn't beat them but for a penalty - should we too sell our entire team then considering QPR have an atrocious away record? We don't even have the excuse of not having WC players or losing our best players.

And believe me Simeone turns bad Atletico performances around at half time a hell of a lot. The number of goals they score at the start of the second half is amazing. Just see their recent second half performances away to Athletic Bilbao or Real Madrid miweek. They were also being completely dominated by Barcelona until the second half where they were very close to 2-2 if Mandzukic could actually pass. How often does Mourinho change things significantly at half time when we're playing poorly away from home? Cty away? Nope. Newcastle/Sunderland away? Nope. Tottenham away? Nope. Liverpool yesterday? Nope.

Managers don't have all the answers, obviously. I accept that Mourinho will make mistakes but when it's repeated and avoidable ones (requires more courage and better tactical work on pressing) then it does get very frustrating. And I don't know why you feel the need to slate Simeone in any way you can when the point is that he uses more balanced and proactive defensive tactics than Mourinho. If you think Atletico having a bad first-half away to a Barcelona side with Messi, Suarez and Neymar all playing brilliantly is comparable to Chelsea being dominated by Tottenham and Pool then we should probably end this discussion here.

[Tomo 21,754]

He's won 2 out of 8 CL SFs in his career. Yes there are plenty of good teams in the latter stages of the CL but he's had some brilliant sides himself and that's a fairly awful record for someone who is often descirbed as one of the greatest (big game) managers ever. I posted on here when the draw against Liverpool was announced about how we'd struggle if Jose did his usual SF approach - an extreme fear of conceding that results in a lack of attacking ambition and ironically less defensive stability. I didn't actually think he would do that against this Liverpool side in the Capital One Cup but I really shouldn't be shocked by his tactics anymore.

SAF has also got 8 semi finals with two wins (both a lot more fortunate than Mous).

Sorry Fergie the knighthood was a mistake, it was suppose to be McLeish.

[The Chels 2,502]

SAF has also got 8 semi finals with two wins (both a lot more fortunate than Mous).

Sorry Fergie the knighthood was a mistake, it was suppose to be McLeish.

He's won 3/7 CL SFs. I'm not at all saying that Mourinho is a bad manager. I'm saying that he has an overly negative approach towards certain big games, particularly SFs (and also that he hasn't sorted out our issues with pressing and compactness). Can a manager's flaws not be pointed out without his apologists resorting to patronising and sarcastic posts?

[DH1988 1,356]

Its not about being negative towards Jose he is open to constructive criticism as is anyone, nobody is perfect at all, but he's damn close.

I don't like the setup in big games, I said it here last season and this season again and I do not like his subs, again not the first time I'm saying that.

It seems to be waiting for a dire situation before making a change when the pressure was ON yesterday and we couldnt trap the ball it was a game for Drog to come on, be a focal point, hold the ball, take up two players and draw fouls rather than Costa.

It was a matter of time before we conceded last night unfortunately but the aim was to get a draw and bring it back to the bridge, same old tactics with two legged games I'm afraid, barely worked against PSG, didn't work against Atletico.

If he doesn't change it then honestly we are looking at another year of disappointment in the CL especially.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

I would also be of this attitude if it was a one off but it is clearly not. I've lost count of the number of SFs Jose has lost because of the type of tactics we saw today.

But by the same token think how many has he won...

[Muzchap 8,966]

I was really annoyed last night with him, but today I'm like meh!

I should have expected this - I think that was my biggest problem, I expected us to exploit their shit defence and roll them over.

To then watch 90 minutes, 80 mins of that with us not being able to string 2 passes together - it just infuriated me beyond all reason.

I guess I need to stop watching these games and posting in the match day thread

[manpe 10,861]

There's seriously something wrong when it comes to playing Liverpool in the cup and the league under Mourinho. Almost a huge difference in the performance.

This is what I think:

In the league he has to get all the points no matter what, hence take more risks to grab the goals. In knock-out competitions it seems we revert to "there's still the second leg" attitude and in the second leg we go "penalties are better than losing", thus both games are normally very cagey under Mourinho unless we really need to go for it when losing. We usually just look to nick a goal and hold it for our lives to avoid all the ET and peno bullshit. In the league we actually look to improve our goal difference, which isn't important in cups.

Yesterday my point was highlighted by the fact that he brought on Azpi for Willian with quite a lot of time left, that was the moment when I realized that Jose just wanted to take the away goal and run with it until we have the home advantage. Playing it safe, but the accompanying performance was horrible for some reason, not a hint of defensive control over the game. Shit needs to improve next game or we're in trouble. This kind of mentality can of course backfire when we play like crap, but it can actually turn out good more often than not imo.

Despite yesterday, I'm still confident, because I think there's no way the home leg will be a repeat of what we saw. We're a different animal at home and taking an away goal from Anfield isn't that bad - dont forget, we're still leading. Also, we must remember that cups are the only title hopes Liverpool have and they have extra motivation now for Gerrard to leave with some final silverware. So combine that logic with their habit of raising their game against us, and you get a Liverpool different from what we encounter in the league.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

This is what I think:

In the league he has to get all the points no matter what, hence take more risks to grab the goals. In knock-out competitions it seems we revert to "there's still the second leg" attitude and in the second leg we go "penalties are better than losing", thus both games are normally very cagey under Mourinho unless we really need to go for it when losing. We usually just look to nick a goal and hold it for our lives to avoid all the ET and peno bullshit. In the league we actually look to improve our goal difference, which isn't important in cups.

Yesterday my point was highlighted by the fact that he brought on Azpi for Willian with quite a lot of time left, that was the moment when I realized that Jose just wanted to take the away goal and run with it until we have the home advantage. Playing it safe, but the accompanying performance was horrible for some reason, not a hint of defensive control over the game. Shit needs to improve next game or we're in trouble. This kind of mentality can of course backfire when we play like crap, but it can actually turn out good more often than not imo.

Despite yesterday, I'm still confident, because I think there's no way the home leg will be a repeat of what we saw. We're a different animal at home and taking an away goal from Anfield isn't that bad - dont forget, we're still leading. Also, we must remember that cups are the only title hopes Liverpool have and they have extra motivation now for Gerrard to leave with some final silverware. So combine that logic with their habit of raising their game against us, and you get a Liverpool different from what we encounter in the league.

Spot on.

But to be honest, that performance gives me no confidence in the Champions League against big teams. We just can't defend as well as we did last season.

I am blaming this on the fact that a midfield of Matic-mikel-fabregas is too slow. If we try to defend any lead against any big champs lge team, we'll be in trouble unless ramires comes in for mikel or even Matic-ramires-oscar with two Brazilians providing proper energy we can recover and easily track fast runners.

If Mourinho wants to defend with a very slow midfield like we did against Liverpool, we won't even make it to the semi-final of the champs lge.

[lionsden 4,689]

If we continue this way there's no way we are ever going to win the UCL and compete with the big biys unless we have another run of luck of historical proportions ala 2012. Play like that against better teams like bayern, Madrid, Barca,Atleti and they will fecking batter us.

I cannot recall a single game we have managed to control under Jose when the opposition have pressed us aggressively and higher up the pitch. We get shell shocked and panick whenever this happens and automatically turn to defensive tactics and completely surrender posession as a way of dealing with our inability to keep the ball well which more often than not ususally backfires against quality teams.

based on my observation our problem is largely due to our tendency to never build from the back against high pressing teams. Its extremely difficult to control the game and maintain posession when the GK excessively pumps long balls and your defenders hoof it all the time, all it does is give the ball back to the opposition. But I do understand why we don't because our GK's are not confident in their own ability and JT is the only ball playing CB we have and even his first instinct is to play it safe by hoofing it and such tactics will be suicidal with players like cahill and Zouma.

So how do we solve this problem without buying players?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

More shots fired at Frank

[Fernando 6,743]

Let's see how we play city before we start saying that we will get batter by teams like Bayern,real and such.

What I do agree is that mourinho ain't as fast with his sub like he used to be in the past.

He would spot the rising danger and will act fast.

I think it can be to two things. Either he's getting old and therefore that instinct of being precise and fast has slowed down.

Or our subs are not as good....

[The Chels 2,502]

If we continue this way there's no way we are ever going to win the UCL and compete with the big biys unless we have another run of luck of historical proportions ala 2012. Play like that against better teams like bayern, Madrid, Barca,Atleti and they will fecking batter us.

I cannot recall a single game we have managed to control under Jose when the opposition have pressed us aggressively and higher up the pitch. We get shell shocked and panick whenever this happens and automatically turn to defensive tactics and completely surrender posession as a way of dealing with our inability to keep the ball well which more often than not ususally backfires against quality teams.

based on my observation our problem is largely due to our tendency to never build from the back against high pressing teams. Its extremely difficult to control the game and maintain posession when the GK excessively pumps long balls and your defenders hoof it all the time, all it does is give the ball back to the opposition. But I do understand why we don't because our GK's are not confident in their own ability and JT is the only ball playing CB we have and even his first instinct is to play it safe by hoofing it and such tactics will be suicidal with players like cahill and Zouma.

So how do we solve this problem without buying players?

When pressed we tend to kick it anywhere, randomly. If you watch other top teams' transitions from defence to attack their clearances very often reach a teammate in a good position and that's by design. We don't seem to have anything planned except for lump it anywhere and invite more pressure.

But by the same token think how many has he won...

2/8 in the CL which is the most important cup competition and where Jose's weaknesses comes into play most. It was absolutely tragic that we couldn't beat Liverpool in 05 with the side we had but even more tragic in 07 after going into the away leg with a 1-0 lead. I have no idea why he played for a 0-0 when one away goal would have ended the tie ffs. This is why I'm such a big fan of Simeone even though he has several detractors on here. He is very similar to Mourinho in that he is an excellent motivator and top class defensive manager (imo he is currently better because his side remains amazingly compact while still pressing brilliantly) but he is a lot braver than Jose in the biggest games. The way they dominated us at the Bridge was unreal. Lack of courage in the biggest games has been the one significant flaw in Jose's managerial career and Simeone doesn't appear to have that drawback.

[CeleryFC 373]

Yesterday my point was highlighted by the fact that he brought on Azpi for Willian with quite a lot of time left,

What, a whole minute, not allowing for the extra 2?

[kellzfresh 7,229]

When pressed we tend to kick it anywhere, randomly. If you watch other top teams' transitions from defence to attack their clearances very often reach a teammate in a good position and that's by design. We don't seem to have anything planned except for lump it anywhere and invite more pressure.

This is exactly what I was telling you before. Mourinho's weakness is we don't pass under pressure. Not that he doesn't know how to press, he's a master at that.