Closed Chelsea 5-4 Manchester United (AET)

[Henrique 9,133]

Watch it again and you will see Cahill was in his position while Mikel was going back to cover Luiz, but Luiz lost the ball before Mikel could even get back, so Hernandez just ran through - if Luiz was back there, it would not have happened.

I watched it many times, and Cahill was too wide for his position, and he should be be closer to the box.

Well, people now are saying Cahill is our best defender in the squad, and one of the most outrageous things I have read in this forum is that he is the best option for the next captain, and we are talking about a player is a Chelsea's player for less than a year.

While Cahill doesnt make the "silly" mistakes that Luiz do, he never o anything special. Tell me one game that Cahill put a good striker in his pocket. Luiz in most part of the game is making the opponents job harder, and that Manchester's match aside, back in 2011, I dont remember one single match that we lost because of Luiz. We lost 3 times this season, and in none of these defeats Luiz was the one to blame.

Now I read some people saying Luiz cant defend, and his singning was a disaster, or that he is not good enough. These comments are stupid.

[Rmpr 8,977]

no way. we had 4 cleansheets but against Wigan (where we were battered for 75 minutes), QPR, Stoke and Newcastle (only performance to take credit for) apart from that we have been shocking

but i agree with the other part. its a team-issue. we are not recovering our defensive shape quickly enough.

Notice how the fullbacks are rushing to get back to the defensive line and how the midfield is distorted leaving wide empty spaces

http://www.carefreec...uiz-og-and.html - credit to carefree chronicles

I meant number wise, we were the best defense until Spurs game, Arsenal came second...

I totally agree with the recovery issue, it is due because the ball gets passed our attacking players too quickly though. It makes really hard for the team to recover back from an attack/corner. It is hard to ask our full and center backs to rush 60 meters in seconds (they are not the fastest players) without our attack retarding the opposition a little bit.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Mate, I did not like that. It is some kind of prejudice.

Me being a brazilian does not effect my judgement. I will judge what I see on the pitch, no matter nationality. Does it mean you are biased when you speak about english players?

This, 'you are brazilian and all that' is fucking stupid. Sorry...

Mate i get what you mean but in all fairness if you read Henrique's post you'd see that he was being overprotective of Luiz and trying to shift the blame towards Cahill while it was very clear that Luiz was at fault not Cahill.

James was questioning Henrique's motives for protecting Luiz and implying that he was biased because he was Brazilian. James didn't accuse all Brazilians of being biased. He accused Henrique of being biased and imho he was right.

[bababoom 4,478]

Mate, I did not like that. It is some kind of prejudice.

Me being a brazilian does not effect my judgement. I will judge what I see on the pitch, no matter nationality. Does it mean you are biased when you speak about english players?

This, 'you are brazilian and all that' is fucking stupid. Sorry...

I apologise if it offended you.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Mate i get what you mean but in all fairness if you read Henrique's post you'd see that he was being overprotective of Luiz and trying to shift the blame towards Cahill while it was very clear that Luiz was at fault not Cahill.

James was questioning Henrique's motives for protecting Luiz and implying that he was biased because he was Brazilian. James didn't accuse all Brazilians of being biased. He accused Henrique of being biased and imho he was right.

Well, if you want it to be fair...

Henrique was protecting Luiz, wrongly imo. You cant claim (or acuse) him of doing this because of his nationality though. Cant it be because he likes Luiz, because he hates Cahill, because he is blind and sees stupid things, etc? Why it has to be an overrating because of Brazil?

[Henrique 9,133]

http://www.carefreechronicles.com/2012/10/pointing-fingers-goals-from-luiz-og-and.html

I really dont know how can someone say Cahill was in a good position. Just look where Hazard was with the ball, and where our CB was. It is clear that if Hazard lose the ball there, Ashley Young will have an open gate to enter in our defence.

In this sequence its clear that that Cahill was the one marking RVP, but somehow he just left the guy alone to score the goal and went to mark Young, while Ivanovic was the one marking Young, left to mark no one.

[Strike 6,977]

I watched it many times, and Cahill was too wide for his position, and he should be be closer to the box.

Well, people now are saying Cahill is our best defender in the squad, and one of the most outrageous things I have read in this forum is that he is the best option for the next captain, and we are talking about a player is a Chelsea's player for less than a year.

While Cahill doesnt make the "silly" mistakes that Luiz do, he never o anything special. Tell me one game that Cahill put a good striker in his pocket. Luiz in most part of the game is making the opponents job harder, and that Manchester's match aside, back in 2011, I dont remember one single match that we lost because of Luiz. We lost 3 times this season, and in none of these defeats Luiz was the one to blame.

Now I read some people saying Luiz cant defend, and his singning was a disaster, or that he is not good enough. These comments are stupid.

your argument lacks substance. your criticism of cahill is his positioning and he does nothing "special". ridiculous. cahill was not to blame in the 2nd united goal or any of united's goals yesterday while luiz was clearly to blame for the 2nd and 3rd goals. you accuse us of branding luiz when you do the same to Cahill. you are ignoring the many aspects where cahill is better than Luiz - decision making, tackling etc and focussing on few points and calling luiz a better defender than cahill. makes no sense to me

[Rmpr 8,977]

I apologise if it offended you.

It has not offended me, I very much did not like it though. I really apreciate your appology, thank you.

[Henrique 9,133]

Well, if you want it to be fair...

Henrique was protecting Luiz, wrongly imo. You cant claim (or acuse) him of doing this because of his nationality though. Cant it be because he likes Luiz, because he hates Cahill, because he is blind and sees stupid things, etc? Why it has to be an overrating because of Brazil?

James was the guy saying Cahill is our best option for being our next captain, and it was clear he was saying it because Cahill was born in UK. This is enough to prove he is biased. He want Cahill playing and Luiz on the bench.

Deep down inside he knows Luiz is a better option.

[Rmpr 8,977]

@Henrique: 2am, time to sleep...

[Strike 6,977]

http://www.carefreec...uiz-og-and.html

I really dont know how can someone say Cahill was in a good position. Just look where Hazard was with the ball, and where our CB was. It is clear that if Hazard lose the ball there, Ashley Young will have an open gate to enter in our defence.

In this sequence its clear that that Cahill was the one marking RVP, but somehow he just left the guy alone to score the goal and went to mark Young, while Ivanovic was the one marking Young, left to mark no one.

true. agree abt the positioning part. cahill gets his positioning wrong here and other times in the match but this is just 2 stills in the game. luiz was equally palpable in the weekend defeat. notice luiz's position here for example. he is standing wider than cahill is. and when the midfield is bypassed we are cut open. cahill should have marked rvp no doubt but there is another instance in the game in the weekend AND yesterday where Luiz goes into a very deep "shot-Blocking" position. that is just nonsense imo. we are not in the Nou Camp anymore to make a line and block the shots. sorry, but i find your criticism of Cahill and your defense of Luiz lacking in reason

[Henrique 9,133]

your argument lacks substance. your criticism of cahill is his positioning and he does nothing "special". ridiculous. cahill was not to blame in the 2nd united goal or any of united's goals yesterday while luiz was clearly to blame for the 2nd and 3rd goals. you accuse us of branding luiz when you do the same to Cahill. you are ignoring the many aspects where cahill is better than Luiz - decision making, tackling etc and focussing on few points and calling luiz a better defender than cahill. makes no sense to me

So the discussion ends here, because I also believe your arguments regarding this subject lacks substance and are ridiculous. Focussing in few points and calling Cahill a better defender makes no sense to me, and you are ignoring the many aspects where Luiz is better than Cahill, and your opinon that Cahill is better in decision making, tackling and focussing are far from being facts, are just your opnion.

Not the first time you try to make your opnion look like a fact. The only fact we have right now is that Luiz is RDM's first choice, and also a starting eleven for Brazilian NT. I'm happy the things will stay as they are.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Well, if you want it to be fair...

Henrique was protecting Luiz, wrongly imo. You cant claim (or acuse) him of doing this because of his nationality though. Cant it be because he likes Luiz, because he hates Cahill, because he is blind and sees stupid things, etc? Why it has to be an overrating because of Brazil?

Well you have a point but the thing is it's very common for people to like a player of the same nationality. It happens a lot and makes perfect sense. So James accusing Henrique of being biased because of his nationality can be true. Only Henrique or someone who knows Henrique personally can say for certain if it's true or not.

Can we drop this argument? James apologised, you accepted it.The situation has been cleared up. I don't feel there 's any need to continue this discussion as it feels kinda pointless.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Well you have a point but the thing is it's very common for people to like a player of the same nationality. It happens a lot and makes perfect sense. So James accusing Henrique of being biased because of his nationality can be true. Only Henrique or someone who knows Henrique personally can say for certain if it's true or not.

Can we drop this argument? James apologised, you accepted it.The situation has been cleared up. I don't feel there 's any need to continue this discussion as it feels kinda pointless.

LOL, you did not even need to reply. I have already droped.

[Henrique 9,133]

true. agree abt the positioning part. cahill gets his positioning wrong here and other times in the match but this is just 2 stills in the game. luiz was equally palpable in the weekend defeat. notice luiz's position here for example. he is standing wider than cahill is. and when the midfield is bypassed we are cut open. cahill should have marked rvp no doubt but there is another instance in the game in the weekend AND yesterday where Luiz goes into a very deep "shot-Blocking" position. that is just nonsense imo. we are not in the Nou Camp anymore to make a line and block the shots. sorry, but i find your criticism of Cahill and your defense of Luiz lacking in reason

You should read the article, our problem is not the quality of our CB, because Terry and Luiz are very good, and Cahill is decent enough to start a UCL final match.

[Strike 6,977]

So the discussion ends here, because I also believe your arguments regarding this subject lacks substance and are ridiculous. Focussing in few points and calling Cahill a better defender makes no sense to me, and you are ignoring the many aspects where Luiz is better than Cahill, and your opinon that Cahill is better in decision making, tackling and focussing are far from being facts, are just your opnion.

Not the first time you try to make your opnion look like a fact. The only fact we have right now is that Luiz is RDM's first choice, and also a starting eleven for Brazilian NT. I'm happy the things will stay as they are.

nah. i am not saying cahill is very good either. but there is no excuse to criticising cahill AND defending luiz. and just to clarify, decision making is pretty obvious but tackling - my basic criteria is the large number of mistimed tackles by luiz. also, if u looked at the game last night, cahill was excellent in tackling while luiz conceded lot of fouls and got a yellow card as well late on.

"Not the first time you try to make your opinion look like a fact" - let's just say its the kettle calling the pot black. anyway, agree to disagree.

edit - Fouls this season - Luiz - 10; Cahill - 2

no. of times dribbled by opposing player - Luiz - 5; Cahill - 1

but luiz interceptions are much higher - 16 to cahill's 5. that shows the difference b/w the two

Luiz has played 8 games while Cahill has played 6

[Jase 43,479]

Well, that was one hell of a game. Seen some great attacking football once again and if we were a bit more clinical with our chances, we could have scored more than 5. Some of the misses by Sturridge, Moses and Azpilicueta was rather ridiculous! However, we once again committed suicide in defence. We just love to give goals away don't we recently? Romeu getting caught on the ball was just like what happened with Mikel & Cech against Liverpool last season and then Luiz decided to over elaborate, ventured forward and played one of his silly forward passes! We REALLY need to stop giving away cheap goals like that. We have now conceded 11 goals in our last 4 games compared to just 2 in the 4 prior to that!

On the players, thought Moses and Azpilicueta did well. The former did very well, was lively all game and made a nuisance of himself going forward especially against Buttner. And his that pass for Sturridge in the opening minutes was just exquisite. Inch perfect and delivered to perfection. Only downside was he couldn't convert his chances when it came! As for Azpilicueta, thought he did very well. Solid offensively and defensively, apart from giving away the penalty that is. Delivered some really good and dangerous crosses and he too should have scored with the header at the far post!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I think our defense system has to improve. We were the best defense in England early on. Since then, we conceded 2 vs Juve, 2 vs Spuds, 2 vs Shak, 3 vs Utd and 4 vs Utd. At the beginning of the season, the double pivot was not working, now I think the problem lies on the back 4 and on high pressure with our attacking players. Each game people try to pin-point and blame one specific player. However, I honestly think it is a team issue.

I agree that our center backs have to step up a bit. Neither JT, Luiz nor Cahill are at their best. I dont believe we should buy a new cb though. They are certainly not crap and they will improve. We still have some 2-3 years left in Terry, we also have some promessing young talents and a new player will only make our Captain retire sooner and retard the development of the Academy. If, and only if, Terry says he will retire next season or so (which I dont believe), we should buy a replacement.

Ivanovic and Cole havent look sharp lately. I am 100% sure they will get their form back. Not a problem at all.

The double pivot has impressed me a lot. Mikel and Rambo doing an excellent job, Romeu did not have a good game but we all know he has quality and Oscar proved he can deliver. I am worried what will Lampard's role be, I am concerned we are witnessing his last year.

I agree that our defensive problems are more systemic than talent-based. Here are what I think are the issues.

1) Our lack of width.

Problem 1) If the opposition has any width, they will always outnumber us on the wings, leaving Cole or Ivanovic in odd-man situations

Problem 2). Because we have no width in attack, Cole and Ivanovich have to get up the field to attack. This leaves us incredibly vulnerable to counter-attacks

2) Our attackers don't track back enough.

3) What style do we play defensively? Are we a pressing team? We have some players that press and others that play positional defense. Oscar and Ramires seem to be pressing all the time but they also get beaten more than any of our other players (because they are so aggressive, they also tackle more than any of our players) and some of that is because you need to press as a team to creature pressure on their ball-handlers.Otherwise, you get dribbled past too often (in the last 4 games, we;ve been outdribbled in every one for a total of 43-28). To press effectively, you can't just have one or two players pressing.

4) A defensive general. Even though Terry is not an elite defender anymore, he provides vocal leadership that the back line seems to need. He is always communicating with the other defenders. Without Terry, there have been a number of plays where Chelsea defenders don't communicate properly.

5) Mental mistakes. Made a lot of these recently.

As for the double-pivot, I disagree. It's not that I think that Ramires and Mikel aren't playing well at all. It's just that we're not getting what we should be getting out of the double pivot. Ramires is a very good player, he's not the right kind of player for that position. We need someone who will be able to open up play with incisive passes. Who will be able to switch play from side to side. What Oscar did tonight when he came on, setting up attacks with long passes, with through-balls , with vision, while being solid defensively, that is what a pivot should do. Ramires either gets the ball and he makes a short pass to Oscar or Mata who then set up the play or he runs the ball up to an attacking player and hands it off. He's never going to be able to control the temp of the game. He's never going to hit the long ball over the top or the perfect sideline pass. That's just something we need long-term either from Oscar or from a central midfielder we buy..