Oscar

[Stingray 9,441]

@ theskipper

"Let me tell you why Oscar isn't overrated at all. Gotze, Hazard and Reus have all started their careers in Europe, so it's natural you'd think they've shown (according to you) their talent more because you've been exposed by such more.. . Again, I wouldn't really expect anyone to know the aforementioned without doing a bit of research because the Brazilian league is not covered here at all. "

Firstly I used the reference he hasn't shown anything at club level in regards to his performances both at internacional and Chelsea and secondly, ease up on the assumption that I never knew Oscar and how he performed before joining Chelsea because you know absolutely nothing about me. if we are going to have a civilized debate. it 's best easing up on the assumption and conjecture games.

"Your claim that Oscar hasn't ever done anything to be mentioned in the same breath as those aforementioned is just ignorant to me, sorry. You act like playing number 10 for Brazil is not a big thing, fine, let's put that aside. What you can't put aside regarding his international appearances is that he, alongside with Neymar, is one of Brazil's best performers on a regular basis. Neymar and Oscar carry Brazil's attack. Yeah, Ronaldinho, Kaka etc. are on the wane and aren't as good as they were before but to say he was practically handed the role as Brazil's playmaker is plain ignorant. He cemented the role at a time when Ganso was considered a great talent, Kaka and Ronaldinho were still doing okay (especially the latter in Brazil), Robinho was still a very valid option, all very decent players. Even the likes of Lucas Moura and Coutinho if you're looking at people his age could not secure that spot in the team despite them all being great talents. He's Brazil's playmaker because he produces excellent performances for them, time and time again, and outshone all of the players mentioned before at the mere age of 20/21. If that doesn't make you acknowledge that he's a great talent then pity for you. You can't just discredit this argument because it's very valid."

You just made my point. Let's see, so firstly you agreed when Oscar busted unto the scene Ronaldinho and Kaka were on a downward spiral by the time and Ganso who was hotly tipped to succeed those two and already a starter for the salecao at the time, lost form terribly and never recovered costing him his place and position in the team. His arrival also coincided with a time Brazil launched a rebuilding campaign ahead of the world cup in 2014 and with the scarcity of top class playmakers, Oscar haven't performed well at the junior level for the national team was the beneficiary of that rebuilding phase.

Out of the other players you mentione, only countinho qualifies as a no 10 but he was mismanaged by inter and lost motivation and his reputation to a major hit as a result which didn't help his case at the time.

"However, if you couldn't see why he's on his way to become a top talent during his time here then you should go re-watch a couple of games, starting with his first start against Juventus where he played as a number 10, grabbed two goals against a world class keeper in Buffon (especially his 2nd goal which was our goal of the season), whilst effectively keeping one of the best midfielders in the game, Andrea Pirlo, marked out of the game. You have to be an extraordinary talent to be able to do that, especially if you are merely 21 years of age. If that game didn't make you realise what a great talent Oscar and why he's rated as one of the best talents in the world then nothing will. Again, incase you didn't see that game, here is the video (again, please do remember that this was his first ever start for Chelsea):"

So he had ONE decent game against Juve and this proves what exactly? that it's sufficient proof of his "high ceiling potential and world class talent"?

Fabregas, Rooney,Messi, Ronaldo, Owen to name a few were tearing teams to shred and performing at a far higher level on a CONSISTENT basis at similar age and some of those names were already in the reckoning for the ballon dor at Oscar's age. so forgive me if I'm not impressed by this massive achievement of "our £20m rated, high ceiling prospect"oscar you just highlighted.

"Oscar has such a high ceiling - he's still a bit raw (he's come on a lot since last season mind) but technically very astute, has very good vision, can dribble the ball effectively, his movement and intelligence on and off the ball is fantastic, technique is top notch"

This can't be the same Oscar I saw last season constantly waste possession with very sloppy first touch and wayward passing.

I do get where you are coming from like @choulo19 does and I have said similar things during the season (especially when the Hazard versus Oscar thing was going on).

For me he is a guy with very high potential, but he hasnt put his foot down yet for Chelsea to merit the label of world class talent. It is possible we are biased because we dont see enough of the Brazilian league - the reverse however is also true. There can be a bias just because he is Brazilian and a 10. If I see @barbara calling him her 'BB' ... No offense Barbara, but that screams bias just as much as when I go overboard on KDB because I am belgian and from Ghent like KDB is.

Also, some of the Oscar defenders on here also think in the same breath Mata doesnt deliver enough - see the Mata thread for that. I simply cannot get my head around this double standard. I know this is an impossible comparison, and it is one I am not willing to make. But just ...... How can anyone downplay Mata's performance while 'upplaying' Oscar's. I just don't get that.

So, while we can safely assume he is an amazing talent, he still has a lot to prove here. We will see when and if he delivers. All the rest is speculation and sophistry. Or as some say .... The proof of the pudding is in the eating (the same applies to Hazard and KDB, mind you ....)

[The Skipper 20,593]

^ Stingray, I'm an Oscar, Mata, KDB and Hazard defender. Is that allowed?

For real though, to me it's clear Oscar is one of the top talents in the world right about now simply because he's one of Brazil's best players whenever he does pull on that yellow shirt and because for his first season in Europe he managed to be on the way of establishing himself at a huge club like ourselves with some eye catching performances.

Oscar is definitely in my top 10 for young under 23 talents across the world.

[lucio 5,403]

oliver twist was expecting a youngster to come from brazil into a top European team and score 600+ goals in his first season?

what a mug

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

oliver twist was expecting a youngster to come from brazil into a top European team and score 600+ goals in his first season?

what a mug

Yes, but he scored 4 goals in 34 Premier League games one of which was a penalty so the people talking about him as if he's one of the best player in the world are being ridiculous..He shows excellent potential but the finished product simply was not there for Chelsea last season. He's young, he played a lot of games last season, he does other things than score, and he was making a big jump up in leagues so his so-so season was to be expected, but he's far from being a world-class talent at this point. His 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 games, his 3 goals on 59 shots from open play are feeble for an attacking player (To put in comparison, Jordan Henderson had a better offensive output while taking almost half the number of shots) .

[The Skipper 20,593]

Yes, but he scored 4 goals in 34 Premier League games one of which was a penalty so the people talking about him as if he's one of the best player in the world are being ridiculous..He shows excellent potential but the finished product simply was not there for Chelsea last season. He's young, he played a lot of games last season, he does other things than score, and he was making a big jump up in leagues so his so-so season was to be expected, but he's far from being a world-class talent at this point. His 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 games, his 3 goals on 59 shots from open play are feeble for an attacking player (To put in comparison, Jordan Henderson had a better offensive output while taking almost half the number of shots) .

I don't think anyone is saying he's one of the best players in the world. What we are saying though is that he is one of the best young talents out there. No one is saying he's the finished product at all - what we're discussing about here is whether Oscar deserves to be mentioned as one of the better prospects in the world, and I think he definitely is.

Yeah, okay, he only scored 4 in the PL but he scored 5 in 6 appearances in the CL.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I don't think anyone is saying he's one of the best players in the world. What we are saying though is that he is one of the best young talents out there. No one is saying he's the finished product at all - what we're discussing about here is whether Oscar deserves to be mentioned as one of the better prospects in the world, and I think he definitely is.

Yeah, okay, he only scored 4 in the PL but he scored 5 in 6 appearances in the CL.

There are many many great young talents out there and yes Oscar is one of them. Go back and look at the pages and pages of people gushing over his class. Yes, he could get there but when you break it down, he is someone who had about 5 or 6 excellent games all of last season and had many many games where he was invisible. The person who was on before (forget their username maybe "bite" or something) who was always talking about Oscar being crap was way off base, but as for Oscar being overrated, yes, right now he is vastly overrated compared to what he's accomplished. I think he's likely to have a very good season under Mourinho mind you.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Yes, but he scored 4 goals in 34 Premier League games one of which was a penalty so the people talking about him as if he's one of the best player in the world are being ridiculous..He shows excellent potential but the finished product simply was not there for Chelsea last season. He's young, he played a lot of games last season, he does other things than score, and he was making a big jump up in leagues so his so-so season was to be expected, but he's far from being a world-class talent at this point. His 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 games, his 3 goals on 59 shots from open play are feeble for an attacking player (To put in comparison, Jordan Henderson had a better offensive output while taking almost half the number of shots) .

Xavi has 53 goals in 444 games for Barcelona (which is around the same as Oscar's 4/34), so I guess Henderson is a better player (or goal scorer if you will) because of that...

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Xavi has 53 goals in 444 games for Barcelona (which is around the same as Oscar's 4/34), so I guess Henderson is a better player (or goal scorer if you will) because of that...

Xavi is a central midfielder. His primary function is to move the ball and set up the attack score and he's been one of the best in the world in doing that for year. Xavi had a 95% passing rate. Oscar's was 83% Oscar is an attacking midfielder. If an attacking midfielder isn't scoring, he might be useful, but he certainly can't be considered anything special. (I will also add that Oscar didn't even get many assists. You can be a great midfielder if you're setting up goals left and right, it's different of course. You can't be a great attacking midfielder and have 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 matches. It's just not possible. )

[Stingray 9,441]

^ Stingray, I'm an Oscar, Mata, KDB and Hazard defender. Is that allowed?

Of course ... I had him in my sig myself for almost a year. Still ... I think he should bring more next year (so does Hazard imo) but it seems a touchy subject for some to debate on.

Plus: you said it correctly 'when he puts that yellow shirt on'. This is Chelsea for me - not the brazilian NT - no offense to the brazilian guys on here

Meanwhile it seems ok now to doubt Mata - in spite of his performances this season - for some. Double standards at least here!

That is all i am saying.

[Hutcho 8,443]

He has got a lot to prove this season and really try and establish a spot in this team long term. Hazard is expected to push on after a great first season, and Mata has obviously been phenomenel the past 2 seasons. And with the likes of KDB and Schurrle here, it is important for oscar that he really steps up and makes his mark. So much potential and talent, and this season could be the season he really shows it in a chelsea shirt.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Xavi is a central midfielder. His primary function is to move the ball and set up the attack score and he's been one of the best in the world in doing that for year. Xavi had a 95% passing rate. Oscar's was 83% Oscar is an attacking midfielder. If an attacking midfielder isn't scoring, he might be useful, but he certainly can't be considered anything special. (I will also add that Oscar didn't even get many assists. You can be a great midfielder if you're setting up goals left and right, it's different of course. You can't be a great attacking midfielder and have 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 matches. It's just not possible.

You are ignoring all important facts about Oscar, just throwing some deceiving stats to make a flawed case...

[Weckerz 3,781]

I like him, even though he didn't always play well.. He oozes class imo. Hopefully the addition of KDB and Schurrle will bring out the best in all of our attacking talent.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

The sole reason for this debate is simple - Oscar plays like a world-class talent for Brazil but hasn't shown that form in a Chelsea shirt yet, apart from a game here or there. So people who mainly watch Chelsea will def criticize him whereas those who have seen him perform for Brazil will defend him because regardless of competition for his place, he gets in that Brazil team because he really is one of their best players.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

You are ignoring all important facts about Oscar, just throwing some deceiving stats to make a flawed case...

It's not deceiving stats at all. He's an attacking midfielder. His primary job is to create goals. If he is not creating goals, he can still be useful, but he's not a top player. You cannot be a top attacking player and not produce goals. I don't care how well you track back or dribble. As I said, I think he will get there but he's not there yet.

[lucio 5,403]

Yes, but he scored 4 goals in 34 Premier League games one of which was a penalty so the people talking about him as if he's one of the best player in the world are being ridiculous..He shows excellent potential but the finished product simply was not there for Chelsea last season. He's young, he played a lot of games last season, he does other things than score, and he was making a big jump up in leagues so his so-so season was to be expected, but he's far from being a world-class talent at this point. His 4 goals and 5 assists in 34 games, his 3 goals on 59 shots from open play are feeble for an attacking player (To put in comparison, Jordan Henderson had a better offensive output while taking almost half the number of shots) .

7 assists

[lucio 5,403]

It's not deceiving stats at all. He's an attacking midfielder. His primary job is to create goals. If he is not creating goals, he can still be useful, but he's not a top player. You cannot be a top attacking player and not produce goals. I don't care how well you track back or dribble. As I said, I think he will get there but he's not there yet.

Same amount of assists as david Silva last season in all comps. And with our vastly shitter strikers

[Dion 2,476]

I'm really looking forward to see his performances this season under Mourinho and better fitness. I'm still a bit disappointed with his performances thus far. Having seen his performances for youth teams, his debut for Sao Paulo's main team, some of Internacional's matches and most of his NT appearances, I expected more in a blue shirt, even considering his long streak of games and first EPL season. I expected him to have improved more than what I saw. I'm hoping it has to do with fatigue and playing out of position, because some years ago I would bet money that Oscar would be already making a huge impact against the best teams in the world by now.

[lucio 5,403]

I'm really looking forward to see his performances this season under Mourinho and better fitness. I'm still a bit disappointed with his performances thus far. Having seen his performances for youth teams, his debut for Sao Paulo's main team, some of Internacional's matches and most of his NT appearances, I expected more in a blue shirt, even considering his long streak of games and first EPL season. I expected him to have improved more than what I saw. I'm hoping it has to do with fatigue and playing out of position, because some years ago I would bet money that Oscar would be already making a huge impact against the best teams in the world by now.

He did make impact in the big matches , goals vs juve and shaktar , assists vs United