Oscar

[LDN Blue 7,903]

How could you say that when for the most part his contributions have been good? We've been playing 4-3-3 in our big away games not 4-2-3-1. Against City we started with Willian, Ramires and Cesc with willian coming inside and allowing Ramires to leak out in a box to box role.

Willian is the better counter attacker because of his pace not because of his quality.

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

[Barbara 15,149]

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

I guess you misunderstood his post. He said Willian is used NOT because of his quality (therefore lack of it), but because of his pace - which is more suitable to counter-attack (which we tend to play in big matches away from home)

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

In my opinion Oscar is at his best when as a team we move the ball quickly, he is probably one of our better players when it comes to passing the ball around with pace. In games where the tempo is slow and we can't play one touch football he struggles to get a foothold in the game but at the same time we all love it when the team plays at a faster tempo.

For me he is integral to a team that want to play possession based football, not because he is brilliant on the ball but because his tactical nous make it possible for us to play fluidly.

He hasn't had to be as effective in winning the ball back because Matic has been nothing short of the best in the world, winning close to 4 tackles a game! So he's not needed defensively other than in the press(which he is fantastic at when not tired) the aspects of his game that get exposed are the slower games where we need him to be a functioning conduit between Costa, Hazard and Cesc.

I love Oscar's game and know he can still grow as a player but some of the shtick he gets from game to game is unwarranted for a player who is 23 and performing a variety of tasks well. You put Isco, Mata, Eriksen, Coutinho, Ozil, Nasri(players I put in a similar bracket to Oscar) in our team and ask them to win 2 tackles a game, test the keeper 3 times a game, score goals and assist goals, press the opposition when out of possession AND do it week in and week out I think A LOT of you here would seriously be disappointed at how poorly they fair.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

You clearly have misread my post. Read it again.

Its hard to say that, I think it comes down to tactics. Who can do the job Mou needs for the team... Lets be honest here Jose thinks defense first before offense. Our most effective set up last year was with Luiz, Matic and Ramires in the midfield and with Willian and Hazard on the flank for pace.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

I guess you misunderstood his post. He said Willian is used NOT because of his quality (therefore lack of it), but because of his pace - which is more suitable to counter-attack (which we tend to play in big matches away from home)

You clearly have misread my post. Read it again.

Its hard to say that, I think it comes down to tactics. Who can do the job Mou needs for the team... Lets be honest here Jose thinks defense first before offense. Our most effective set up last year was with Luiz, Matic and Ramires in the midfield and with Willian and Hazard on the flank for pace.

Apologies, I re-read and understood what you intended

But yeah I agree with you on your premise on that post. I do have to reiterate, I do like Oscar.. At the age of 23 he still has a while to go before we can say he's at his peak. It's the consistency that I have the most frustrations with him.

In Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Oscar and Willian we do have a formidable attack. As you said Chelsea Legend 11, it depends on Mourinho's tactics. Though I do find it hard to look past Mourinho overlooking Oscar in the 'big games'. The good thing, it doesn't look like Oscar has frustrated Mourinho, which means he must be responding to Mou's instructions in training.

I don't think it's long before we see Oscar step it up to the level we'd expect from a player occupying the position he plays. I still think we did right by selling Mata and making Oscar one of the focal points of our attack.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,067]

never said the opposite, but you - alongside others - were harsh on him for picking up five incomplete passes in the second half and calling him sloppy in those 45 minutes when the team as a whole relaxed. Still he almost scored another beautiful goal, took part in some of our best attacks in the second and would surely score had Surely not done it before him... Harsh in my book.

To each their own, but I think there has been a lot of nitpicking with Oscar. It seems the kid never wins. Few people mention and give him credit and praise for scoring very early opening goals (I guess it was his third or forth this season), or for scoring the opening goal regardless of when, or for having a combined of 13 goals and assists in 19 matches in the league, 8 of which in the last 9.

All I see is this thread being on fire when he's bad - and I admit he goes through really bad spans - and either quiet (apart from the usual Oscar 'fans') or nitpicking on what he doesn't do when he does well or at least gets himself in the scoresheet. Go back the last pages and nobody is detracting from their assessments, nobody apart from the usual members are giving him credit. It seems like most people purposefully ignore him when he does well, but make sure to pop when he doesn't and are also supportive and argumentative on the nitpicking.

When he has a bad match people will make sure to leave a post saying so. The pages of this thread tells this story, not me. He is far from being consistent enough or the end product, but he's far from being as useless as many of you claim. Even you changed your instance about his future.

I'm not against criticizing him, it's just the tone in this thread is harsh in general given his age and his contributions (even if they aren't consistent enough).

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

The criticism of Oscar does not stem from his having a poor 45 minutes. In fact I specifically said, after his horrendous first half vs Newcastle, that it would be wrong to judge him on such a display. If people mentioned 45 minutes against this team, or that team, it was only as yet another example of his poor play and not as a sole reason to be unhappy with him.

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He benefited from a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and equally determined to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then too that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

It seems unlikely that you and I will ever agree on the reason for Oscar's sloppiness, we perhaps won't even agree about precisely how long it's been going on, but we can agree, can't we, that it's been a good while now?

As for the Mata comparison, I guess @yuvala is the best person to defend the point he was making.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He had a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

The fundamental difference between the critiques of Oscar as compared to Willian, Salah, Mikel etc are that no-one is saying that Oscar should be sold or dropped indefinitely or anything of that nature.

Most of us really do want Oscar to do well and no-one has taken anything away from the goals and assists he's provided to us this season. The critiques are calls for improvement, not resting our judgements on him never to look back. As I keep saying, Mourinho is probably working on all these negatives aspects and helping Oscar become the world beater he should be.

It may not even take long. When that happens, praise will go to Oscar for consistent class.

[Barbara 15,149]

The criticism of Oscar does not stem from his having a poor 45 minutes. In fact I specifically said, after his horrendous first half vs Newcastle, that it would be wrong to judge him on such a display. If people mentioned 45 minutes against this team, or that team, it was only as yet another example of his poor play and not as a sole reason to be unhappy with him.

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He had a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then too that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

It seems unlikely that you and I will ever agree on the reason for Oscar's sloppiness, we perhaps won't even agree about precisely how long it's been going on, but we can agree, can't we, that it's been a good while now?

As for the Mata comparison, I guess @yuvala is the best person to defend the point he was making.

I agree on his sloppiness - I agree he's inconsistent. I just find it harsh 1) to ignore his impact LAST match and mention he was sloppy because of 5 passes uncompleted in the second half. People said it in the post match thread and in this thread. They were talking about the Swansea match. It's like they're like 'he did okay, scored twice, BUT was sloppy in the second, BUT lost the ball many times or misplaced many passes'.

Then another discussion started - which I said I agree partially. He's been inconsistent. We should expect more from him, but at the same time, there's only much is fair to ask from a 23yo. Some players peak later than others and I think he's been doing okay lately and has done in some streaks in the past. I for one am happy it's still winter - when he normally struggles - and he's finding his best form. Last season he was in a free fall following the Saints' match where he and Willian won us the match in 20 minutes (the last 20) in the first week of the year.

It's not that we can't say he has to do better, is completely writing him off in the future - as some did, including Skipper, which surprised me - ignoring his age and comparing him to other players either more experienced or playing a completely different kind of opposition. I don't like comparisons in the first place. Mata could be the best player of the league in other country and inexpressive in EPL. KdB found his best form in German football, while here - despite receiving few chances - he didn't seem to fit (seemed a bit too soft, both physically and mentally).

Just because one recognizes the kid has been impacting our games despite not being on his best technically doesn't mean we're ignoring his shortcomings. We're just giving him credit for what he's been good and also recognizing some improvement without ignoring he's still a work in progress.

I feel like I've been repeating myself on this thread over and over for the last three days. We all have different instances on him. Some think his 'supporters' are delusional or blind, others think his critics are too harsh and unfair.

While he scores and assists 8 times in 9 games I won't complain much, I'll at most address some shortcomings, but along with a lot of praising for return. Which other AM has had such return in his latest 9 matches? Fans from other teams would be all over the moon with the substantial and impacting contribution. Chelsea fans are demanding him to be the end product right now and nitpicking five misplaced passes in a second half where we were winning 4-0.

How many times people demanded Oscar and Hazard to impact more directly in the matches? Hazard got some very late recognition about his contributions, and Oscar seems to be on even later recognition. IT seems like we're demanding everything at once. Consistency, creativity, direct impact, growing big balls and resolving when we're struggling. That's too harsh imo. Let the kids grow and mature their games, tactics, deal with their limitations and improve what they aren't naturally doing well. They ARE work in progress

The fundamental difference between the critiques of Oscar as compared to Willian, Salah, Mikel etc are that no-one is saying that Oscar should be sold or dropped indefinitely or anything of that nature.

Most of us really do want Oscar to do well and no-one has taken anything away from the goals and assists he's provided to us this season. The critiques are calls for improvement, not resting our judgements on him never to look back. As I keep saying, Mourinho is probably working on all these negatives aspects and helping Oscar become the world beater he should be.

It may not even take long. When that happens, praise will go to Oscar for consistent class.

I think you've skipped most of the talking in this thread before the Swans match. Many people weren't asking for him to be dropped, but to be replaced by a new signing altogether saying he's not Chelsea material. there aren't many 23yo around the world I'd call Chelsea material tbh.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

As far as I could remember, when team are under perform, and in particular when Oscar so called 'being shit', at the same time Fabregas is 'shit' and anonymous too.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1.) Its funny that people are saying why did Mata changed our bench for united one, but in fact he played around 1400mins, more than Oscar. He is quite regular player these days.

2.) 6 goals, 7 assists is not bad for #10 after good half season. It would be nice if people stopped talking about Oscar not delivering enough for #10.

[The Skipper 20,609]

It's not that we can't say he has to do better, is completely writing him off in the future - as some did, including Skipper, which surprised me - ignoring his age and comparing him to other players either more experienced or playing a completely different kind of opposition. I don't like comparisons in the first place.

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

[CFC888 219]

I'm not one for stats, but I liked this one that came up on my Facebook today.

Oscar has contributed in 13 goals in EPL this season (6G+7A), more than Hazard who has contributed in 12 (8G+4A) despite Oscar playing 516 mins less.

I am not in any way downgrading Hazard, he has been phenomenal for us this season, and I believe there's no comparison to be made between the two players. What I am saying, however, is that as someone already mentioned on here, goals are so crucial in the game of football, and no-one can doubt Oscar's contribution in this area either from his own boot or by assisting a teammate.

The other thing someone else also stated here was that you take Oscar's goals and assists despite some sloppy passing every day of the week.

Especially when the boy is 23 years old and is still improving, as so many people seem to forget...

[Barbara 15,149]

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

I was listing the things that bothered me here, not saying you or someone else said all those things.

Well, as I said to someone else, I respect your (his and everyone else's) feelings on this. I just think it's unfair

[DH1988 1,348]

Stats are such a sometimes misleading way to throw into an argument, I'm not interested in how far a player has run or the start of chances created or sometimes even assists, sorry cesc you are still wonderful.

I watch every game start to finish that I can on stream or TV etc so I'd prefer to go on my own opinion of a player than someone giving me a stat.

Oscar is a good player, he's blue, for that alone he will have my support more often than not unless he plays like Andre.

Consistency and the tired of last year was my issue, he's improved on both somewhat this year and I'll judge him at the end of the season because he was a six month player last year.

23, played far too many games for me. Can he improve? Yes, has he? Yes.

Let's not get stuck in the childish mentality of now now now now, things and improvements take time, Ronaldo wasn't as good as he is now right away actually it took years and years but he improved every year. Not saying Oscar is Ronaldo etc just am example of patience and looking at the bigger picture.. Oscar is better than last year for me and if we continue to want to play with the tactics we do then we need his tenacity as well.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Stats are such a sometimes misleading way to throw into an argument, I'm not interested in how far a player has run or the start of chances created or sometimes even assists, sorry cesc you are still wonderful.

I watch every game start to finish that I can on stream or TV etc so I'd prefer to go on my own opinion of a player than someone giving me a stat.

Oscar is a good player, he's blue, for that alone he will have my support more often than not unless he plays like Andre.

Consistency and the tired of last year was my issue, he's improved on both somewhat this year and I'll judge him at the end of the season because he was a six month player last year.

23, played far too many games for me. Can he improve? Yes, has he? Yes.

Let's not get stuck in the childish mentality of now now now now, things and improvements take time, Ronaldo wasn't as good as he is now right away actually it took years and years but he improved every year. Not saying Oscar is Ronaldo etc just am example of patience and looking at the bigger picture.. Oscar is better than last year for me and if we continue to want to play with the tactics we do then we need his tenacity as well.

midfielders get better with age and just like Matic, modric, xavi were nobodies at 23, Oscar can easily improve his concentration so that he doesn't misplace easy passes when we are starting a move. His tactical abilities to know when Hazard and fabregas don't go back to defend and go to fill in for them is already fantastic. He just needs more time and maturity to iron out those small deficiencies.