🇧🇪 Eden Hazard

[Azpinator 2,325]

5 hours ago, BlueLion. said:

I'm not putting forward an argument, I'm putting forward an opinion. Hazard doesn't convince me; I do not need to quantitate that statement or evidence it, it is merely my opinion. Yet I do find it somewhat ironic that you don't find my purported "argument" convincing when you make sweeping statements such as "the most judgemental remark I've ever read by a football fan". That doesn't quite add up. What I would like to know is how my making of a statement constitutes a "judgemental remark" when you are the one who has engaged in a slippery slope of reasoning and interpretted it in the most hyperbolic fashion imaginable? Fair enough if I said he was shit - I said he isn't world class. The term world class is subjectively quantifiable; to my mind, world class is Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi. Hazard is not in that category, and most likely never will be. I would posit that your incorrect assumptive attitude is more akin to "the most judgemental remark I've ever read by a football fan, let alone a Chelsea fan". 

However, to now give you the argument you are after: I do not think Hazard is world class. I don't believe his statistics indicate that he is world class, nor do I think his performances could justify such a statement. When he is on fire, he is brilliant. Alas, he isn't on fire even half as much as most Chelsea fans would like to think. His lack of consistency is what defines him as being that next rung down on the ladder from being world class. Please note that I did not once even infer he is a poor player, though you have chosen to interpret my comments in such a fashion. 

This notwithstanding, this is an internet forum and I don't really care if you neither like nor accept my opinion. Good day to you.

Okay, perhaps my English failed me and "most judgemental remark" wasn't articulate enough and therefore I should have said "harshest opinion" instead. In addition, I said "might be" while you were deadest on calling me "Another typical Chelsea fan" and yet I'm the hyperbolic one with an assumptive attitude (if you want to talk irony). If you hadn't basically classified me, my attitude would have been less aggressive.

I am, however, quite aware of the difference between an opinion and an argument, and my replies to you weren't in response to only those quoted posts in particular but to your bashing of "The Invisible Man" in multiple threads as well. It seemed to me that you were simultaneously presenting an argument whilst stating an opinion.

I am also aware that you do not see Hazard poor by any means. The thing is, no matter how much the definition of "world-class" varies among football fans/experts, I think Hazard's qualities and achievements would have to be ignored for anyone to not see him as world-class. Maybe your definition of that term is what a large percentage of fans define "legendary" as. I, for instance, see Hazard as world-class, but certainly not a legend because of the exact same reason you've mentioned regarding his consistency.

In my opinion, it is just a linguistic issue that separates the likes of you and I. Have a nice day.

 

[Simon1991 233]

5 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Please that is a lame excuse. Neymar has elevated PSG to another level along with Mbappe and Dani Alves. They were pretty poor the season before hand (big players performing extremely poorly. Platform or not doesn't deter from the fact Neymar is more likely to win the Ballon D'Or than Hazard because he is a better player, who is more consistent as well as being involved in more goals. 

In all competitions Neymar has scored 24 goals and made 14 assists. That is 38 goals he has been involved with, in half a season (15G 11A in league, 6 goals 3 assists in CL, 3 more in French Cups). Where as Eden on the other hand has got 12 and made 4 assists (8G 2A in PL, 3G 2A in CL, 1G in League Cup). 16 goals.

If Eden had those sort of numbers to go with some of his performances he'd be right up there for me, in terms of top 3 attacking midfield/forward players but he doesn't and that's why he will never win Ballon D'Or. One day he will be unplayable, score 2 and look head and shoulders above everybody in the PL, then the next week hes somebody else, 0 goals. He needs a ruthless streak in him to add more goals, because I know stats are overrated and people mention about who plays for us and who plays for PSG/Barca/Real depending on who we compare him to but there is so many moments in Chelsea games where I watch him and hes around the box or in the box and I'm thinking cmon shoot, score, but he doesn't.. he passes, if he just thought less or didn't try to be so fancy with some of the positions he gets in and just do what Diego Costa was very good at, hammering the ball in even if it hits the keeper, he'd easy add another 5 goals a season. Fair enough hes not the biggest concern in the squad but I look around Europe and see Neymar, Dybala, Suarez, Lewandowski, Messi, Ronaldo whoever else, scoring shit loads for fun (or mostof the time), Hazard has got huge levels of ability but he just lacks that killer instinct. Just on the whole general Neymar/Hazard/Ballon D'Or subject. 

It is always the same arguments that we hear to define a attacking player's quality, goals and assists, which is what matters in the end as the goal is the win and you win with goals. But this is definitely a problem when those stats are the main (only?) thing being looked at to define an attacker's quality. Eden brings so much more to the game than that, people who don't see that just don't understand how football works i am sorry. I am not talking about you specifically, but more generally about people who say he's overrated.

By giving those numbers this way, it indeed makes it look like there is a word of difference between the 2 but the context is so different. Hazard scored 8 goals in the league in 16 app, but Chelsea scored 30 goals in total during those 16 games, so that's roughly a 27% direct contribution. If you look at Neymar, he scored 15 in 15 but PSG scored nearly double the amount of goals (53), so his contribution is a similar28%, so the same direct goal contribution practically.  Don't take me wrong, Neymar is a fantastic footballer and i am not trying to minimize what is he achieving, but people are so quick to just draw conclusions based on the raw number of goals it is driving me crazy.

I guess what i want to say with those numbers i mentioned is that you can always use the stats in favor of your argument (if Hazard scored as much he'd be up there with him) while overlooking the whole context of those numbers. The arguments of Belgiannutt are so true, how is he even expected to score or assist as much if the team plays with 9 defensive players and is sometimes struggling to even create 2 clear chances during 90 minutes. If Neymar was here and Hazard at PSG, i am pretty sure that we'd see the opposite in terms of goals, then would you guys say that Hazard is the obvious better player? But again this is fantasy and suppositions as we just won't be able to know.

They're both amazing players, but to place Neymar so clearly above Hazard based on goal contribution is completely absurd for me, knowing that the context in which they've been playing is so different. That comparison would have more sense if say hazard was playing for madrid when Neymar was at Barcelona (same opposition, both attacking football styles..). Just to finish, i think Neymar IS a better finisher than Hazard, but overall i believe Hazard brings at least as much to the game with other qualities of his, and that it would be even clearer to the whole world if he had better players to play with.

 

 

[Leif 6,006]

Who else has - 

- Buns softer than the finest French bakery

- A smile softer than a newborn baby

- A touch softer than a fly?

Nobody, altogether. You dismiss him at your peril. 

 

[YorkshireBlue 3,277]

On 25/01/2018 at 0:50 PM, Special Juan said:

Wait here is a theory....Sack Conte, get Zidane keep Hazard

Id prefer to sack hazard, keep conte and give him what he wants.

[DDA 9,938]

13 hours ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

Why are people still arguing this Neymar vs Hazard bullshit? So disrespectful to Eden not that the comparison is disrespectful but Hazard doesn't have to prove himself to anyone anymore.  He's already shown he's one of the world's best time after time. The silly comparisons to every good player out there by the media and other fans is annoying enough. Maybe we can find some refuge in a Chelsea board away from that crap? 

Hazard is a legend at this club. We don't need to validate him. Some Chelsea fans will literally argue anything that has to do with Hazard. Hazard v Lucas Moura, Hazard v Martial , Hazard v Coutinho. From Hazard v Kagawa in 2013 to Hazard v Mbappe in 2018. Stop it. These are stupid and disrespectful comparisons. We don't do the same with Lamps, JT, Zola and Drog.

Nobody is denying Edens status at the club. How is it disrespectful to compare Hazard to other players? Football is a game of opinions. We are all here to discuss those opinions and it just so happens that some of us believe there are better players than Eden Hazard in the World of football. This isn't to down play his achievements at Chelsea. What he has done for us over the past 6 years will go down in club history and he may well be considered one of the best footballers to have ever graced the turf at Stamford Bridge. That being said, he isn't void of all criticism because of that status. 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

23 hours ago, Belgiannutt said:

No it's not. What are you talking about. PSG were already above us before they bought Neymar and Mbappe. Again, PSG beat us with 10 men.

Pretty poor ? They still beat Barcelona 4-0 in the first leg. 

You didn't answer my question if you swap our team with Barca/PSG do you think he would have performed the way he did knowing we would have set up in a completely different way and had a lot less quality to support him ?

I honestly don't care about the ballon d'or. More of a popularity contest nowaydays anyway. 

What platform a player gets matters. The quality of the supporting cast and the way a team sets up matters. 

Edit: Hazard scored 20 goals and had 16 assists at the age of 21 in his final season for Lille and he didn't have a Veratti, Cavani or Mbappe quality players to play with. 

Again, Hazard doesn't have the same quality teammates to work with and we are also one of the most pragmatic top teams in europe. 

You can't tell me it isn't easier to play for a team that has an attacking team philosophy and has several players capable of being creative and/or taking players on.

I think Neymar could do the same here as hes doing at Paris for sure. I think hes that good, 3rd best player behind Messi and Ronaldo.

Talking about Paris, I don't think they have that much of a better team (the whole we are an extremely poor team thing is a bit OTT, in fact its very OTT, every team can be improved and ours is no different, even City, even United etc. its just we aren't doing it to the level they are but its hardly as if we are now a Championship side or a bottom half of the table side, we are still one of the best teams in the PL), they have an awesome attack and better full backs as well (Kurwaza maybe questionable hes good but Dani Alves is like a different level) and then Verratti in MF (player I'd love to see here, or even Rabiot, hes not exactly a flashy player but hes pretty good) but again Hazard, Kante, Christensen, Courtois, Morata, Cesc... all these guys are more than good enough and wouldn't look out of place at PSG as well. Its a lame excuse to use the structure or surrounding players to try and say this is why he isn't as good as player X because in all honesty Neymar has brought them up a level, he is so influential, his stats are unbelievable for a wide player, he can play poor and still score 2 goals and create an assist or whatever. Hazard can do that, he has done that at times here with various players, guys like Willian, Pedro, Costa, they all looked better when he played because he sees things other don't, played good combinations with them etc etc.

When Hazards on tune, hes great, he will score, he will do flicks, tricks etc, but these things will go unnoticed in comparison with these top 3-5 players in the world because they can do all that too but they have very good and consistent stats. I still think Neymar will be the next guy to win the Ballon D'Or other than Messi or Ronaldo, he is the most probable guy. I don't want to sound like a prick (but probably will here), I'm assuming your Belgian (if not your username is very confusing lol) and there also may be a bit of bias (although it really has nothing to do with anything, fans of clubs and international teams tend to prefer their guys over player X or Y). There is still a lot of things Hazard can do, he really should be scoring at least 20 goals a season and also regularly because he is good enough to do it I feel, here or anywhere else, these world class attacking players, (Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Lewandowski, Suarez - regardless of their team mates, their international team mates, opposition, level of league), you expect them to score a certain number of goals a year and they do or they score more. Suarez at Liverpool is a prime example of how Hazard can be like that, continue to get even better here, score more, assist more, become more consistent, play poorly and still score 2 or create 2 etc. Lets say for instance if we were to take Suarez out of that Liverpool team the year they finished 2nd (can't get over that Demba Ba goal still) and they would not have finished 2nd. Hazard has been key in PL wins for us too. He can go that next level, continue to do so again but be better, set his own bar higher. This is why I think Neymar is better and more likely to be that number 1 player before Eden is. I know Eden brings much more when he plays too, chances created etc but stil; think he should be being pushed to score more goals, particularly if we are gong to see him more as a second striker or as a false 9.

 

 

 

[the wes 7,212]

11 hours ago, BluesMadLad said:

Id prefer to sack hazard 

has long we replace Hazard with both lemar and Fekir I would be happy with Lemar Morata Fekir 

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

3 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

I think Neymar could do the same here as hes doing at Paris for sure. I think hes that good, 3rd best player behind Messi and Ronaldo.

Talking about Paris, I don't think they have that much of a better team (the whole we are an extremely poor team thing is a bit OTT, in fact its very OTT, every team can be improved and ours is no different, even City, even United etc. its just we aren't doing it to the level they are but its hardly as if we are now a Championship side or a bottom half of the table side, we are still one of the best teams in the PL), they have an awesome attack and better full backs as well (Kurwaza maybe questionable hes good but Dani Alves is like a different level) and then Verratti in MF (player I'd love to see here, or even Rabiot, hes not exactly a flashy player but hes pretty good) but again Hazard, Kante, Christensen, Courtois, Morata, Cesc... all these guys are more than good enough and wouldn't look out of place at PSG as well. Its a lame excuse to use the structure or surrounding players to try and say this is why he isn't as good as player X because in all honesty Neymar has brought them up a level, he is so influential, his stats are unbelievable for a wide player, he can play poor and still score 2 goals and create an assist or whatever. Hazard can do that, he has done that at times here with various players, guys like Willian, Pedro, Costa, they all looked better when he played because he sees things other don't, played good combinations with them etc etc.

When Hazards on tune, hes great, he will score, he will do flicks, tricks etc, but these things will go unnoticed in comparison with these top 3-5 players in the world because they can do all that too but they have very good and consistent stats. I still think Neymar will be the next guy to win the Ballon D'Or other than Messi or Ronaldo, he is the most probable guy. I don't want to sound like a prick (but probably will here), I'm assuming your Belgian (if not your username is very confusing lol) and there also may be a bit of bias (although it really has nothing to do with anything, fans of clubs and international teams tend to prefer their guys over player X or Y). There is still a lot of things Hazard can do, he really should be scoring at least 20 goals a season and also regularly because he is good enough to do it I feel, here or anywhere else, these world class attacking players, (Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Lewandowski, Suarez - regardless of their team mates, their international team mates, opposition, level of league), you expect them to score a certain number of goals a year and they do or they score more. Suarez at Liverpool is a prime example of how Hazard can be like that, continue to get even better here, score more, assist more, become more consistent, play poorly and still score 2 or create 2 etc. Lets say for instance if we were to take Suarez out of that Liverpool team the year they finished 2nd (can't get over that Demba Ba goal still) and they would not have finished 2nd. Hazard has been key in PL wins for us too. He can go that next level, continue to do so again but be better, set his own bar higher. This is why I think Neymar is better and more likely to be that number 1 player before Eden is. I know Eden brings much more when he plays too, chances created etc but stil; think he should be being pushed to score more goals, particularly if we are gong to see him more as a second striker or as a false 9.

 

 

 

Neymar wouldn't be able to do what he does at PSG or did at Barcelona. Here you can't lose the ball as many times as he does. 

In the 16/17 CL season he was in the top 5 most wasteful performances 3 times. http://www.givemesport.com/1034576-neymar-recorded-an-embarrassing-champions-league-statistic-against-juventus

Lost possession 46 times, 41 times, 38 times. That's a lot.

Even this season comparing Hazard and Neymar.

Hazard:  in the PL: dispossessed 1.8, Unsuccesful touches 1.5 in the CL : dispossessed 1.5 Unsuccesful touches 2.8

Neymar: in Ligue 1: dispossessed 3.1, Unsuccesful touches 3.3 in the CL : dispossessed 3 Unsuccesful touches 5.8

Neymar loses the ball nearly double as much as Hazard does and Neymar plays in a weaker league. If Neymar came here he wouldn't have that luxury.

He wouldn't have as many opportunities to try things as he does at PSG or Barca and that would certainly effect his output. 

Here Hazard simply doesn't have the luxury of losing the ball 46 times in a game. 

 I don't believe i said we were an extremely poor team but you have to admit that for a topteam we sure have a lot of average and defensive players in our squad. 

Alonso, Moses,  Cahill, Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappa, Rudiger. All average players. Willian wouldn't be a starter for a top club. Fabregas and Pedro were considered surplus to requirements and sold by Barcelona and both are past their best. . 

Neither of them would be starting for a top team nowadays.

Morata was a super sub for Real but is struggling to be the main guy here.(jury's still out on him.) Our only real quality players are Courtois, Azpi, Christensen, Kante and Hazard. 1 gk, 2 cb's, 1 dm and 1 am/ss. 

1 attacking player, 4 defensive ones.

 Fabregas wouldn't be starting ahead of Veratti or Rabiot. Morata wouldn't start ahead of Cavani. The only players who have a chance of playing in that PSG team are the 5 players i mentioned above. 

No it's not lame, the quality of your team mates matters. How attacking or how defensive your team plays matters. There's a reason PSG bought Neymar AND Mbappe. 

"Brought them up a level" There's no doubt that their attack has been improved with the additions of Neymar and Mbappe but they've won the league 4 times in the last 5 without them. 

They were already a quality side before them.

"He can play poor and still score 2 goals" that's kinda ties in with what i was saying in the beginning of my post .The luxury Neymar has that Hazard doesn't.

Neymar can/could play like shit for PSG/Barca and his team would still be able to get him into good positions and still dominate the opposition. 

If Hazard has a poor game our attack is pretty much a dead stick and the chances of us dominating opponents, let alone actually creating dangerous chances for him to score are extremely unlikely. 

If Hazard isn't heavily involved in our attack then our attack just goes nowhere most of the time. There's a massive burden on Hazard to create openings and chances . He never had a Messi/Mbappe to share the burden.

Ofcourse Hazard has done it for us before but it's a lot more difficult to do when you don't have another quality partner to share the burden.

 Teams know Hazard is our focal point. A lot of times they'll  put multiple players on him and we don't have a Messi/ Mbappe to exploit that or force that level of attention unto themselves.

I agree he should be scoring more. While i agree that part of that is because of himself and his reluctance to shoot at times, i also think what i said above about not having a quality partner,being marked by multiple players, us playing with a lot of average and defensive players, playing in a defensive system plays a part in him not being able to reach the 20 goal mark here.

Also how many times do we actually push for more goals when we're up by a goal. How many times has Hazard been subbed 10-20 minutes before time for a more defensive approach to defend a 1-2 goal lead.

 

I honestly don't like Hazard in the false 9 role it makes it more difficult to get him on the ball and i don't think a false 9 goes with the way Conte likes to play.

Srry for the long post.

[Anthon_nini 21]

1 hour ago, Belgiannutt said:

Neymar wouldn't be able to do what he does at PSG or did at Barcelona. Here you can't lose the ball as many times as he does. 

In the 16/17 CL season he was in the top 5 most wasteful performances 3 times. http://www.givemesport.com/1034576-neymar-recorded-an-embarrassing-champions-league-statistic-against-juventus

Lost possession 46 times, 41 times, 38 times. That's a lot.

Even this season comparing Hazard and Neymar.

Hazard:  in the PL: dispossessed 1.8, Unsuccesful touches 1.5 in the CL : dispossessed 1.5 Unsuccesful touches 2.8

Neymar: in Ligue 1: dispossessed 3.1, Unsuccesful touches 3.3 in the CL : dispossessed 3 Unsuccesful touches 5.8

Neymar loses the ball nearly double as much as Hazard does and Neymar plays in a weaker league. If Neymar came here he wouldn't have that luxury.

He wouldn't have as many opportunities to try things as he does at PSG or Barca and that would certainly effect his output. 

Here Hazard simply doesn't have the luxury of losing the ball 46 times in a game. 

 I don't believe i said we were an extremely poor team but you have to admit that for a topteam we sure have a lot of average and defensive players in our squad. 

Alonso, Moses,  Cahill, Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappa, Rudiger. All average players. Willian wouldn't be a starter for a top club. Fabregas and Pedro were considered surplus to requirements and sold by Barcelona and both are past their best. . 

Neither of them would be starting for a top team nowadays.

Morata was a super sub for Real but is struggling to be the main guy here.(jury's still out on him.) Our only real quality players are Courtois, Azpi, Christensen, Kante and Hazard. 1 gk, 2 cb's, 1 dm and 1 am/ss. 

1 attacking player, 4 defensive ones.

 Fabregas wouldn't be starting ahead of Veratti or Rabiot. Morata wouldn't start ahead of Cavani. The only players who have a chance of playing in that PSG team are the 5 players i mentioned above. 

No it's not lame, the quality of your team mates matters. How attacking or how defensive your team plays matters. There's a reason PSG bought Neymar AND Mbappe. 

"Brought them up a level" There's no doubt that their attack has been improved with the additions of Neymar and Mbappe but they've won the league 4 times in the last 5 without them. 

They were already a quality side before them.

"He can play poor and still score 2 goals" that's kinda ties in with what i was saying in the beginning of my post .The luxury Neymar has that Hazard doesn't.

Neymar can/could play like shit for PSG/Barca and his team would still be able to get him into good positions and still dominate the opposition. 

If Hazard has a poor game our attack is pretty much a dead stick and the chances of us dominating opponents, let alone actually creating dangerous chances for him to score are extremely unlikely. 

If Hazard isn't heavily involved in our attack then our attack just goes nowhere most of the time. There's a massive burden on Hazard to create openings and chances . He never had a Messi/Mbappe to share the burden.

Ofcourse Hazard has done it for us before but it's a lot more difficult to do when you don't have another quality partner to share the burden.

 Teams know Hazard is our focal point. A lot of times they'll  put multiple players on him and we don't have a Messi/ Mbappe to exploit that or force that level of attention unto themselves.

I agree he should be scoring more. While i agree that part of that is because of himself and his reluctance to shoot at times, i also think what i said above about not having a quality partner,being marked by multiple players, us playing with a lot of average and defensive players, playing in a defensive system plays a part in him not being able to reach the 20 goal mark here.

Also how many times do we actually push for more goals when we're up by a goal. How many times has Hazard been subbed 10-20 minutes before time for a more defensive approach to defend a 1-2 goal lead.

 

I honestly don't like Hazard in the false 9 role it makes it more difficult to get him on the ball and i don't think a false 9 goes with the way Conte likes to play.

Srry for the long post.

Such a good post, very aware of the nuances in analysing stats. People need to analyse players in the context of their team and the systems they play in. For example we don’t think Hazard scores enough but yet feel Morata’s scoring record is okay as our lead striker even though they’ve scored the same number of goals. Salah has scored more goals than both combined but Chelsea are ahead of Liverpool in every way this season. Hazard scores less than some of his peers as we need less goals to win a game. Most of these players score loads of tap ins to beef up their stats, guy just doesn’t have that luxury. Almost every Hazard goal is due to individual brilliance as his teammates are just not capable of letting him pad his stats. There’s a reason even players like Sane, Who plays with KDB rates Hazard higher and place him in a similar bracket to Messi. I hope he stays but if he goes to a more attacking team, most of his sceptics will eat their words. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 minutes ago, Anthon_nini said:

Such a good post, very aware of the nuances in analysing stats. People need to analyse players in the context of their team and the systems they play in. For example we don’t think Hazard scores enough but yet feel Morata’s scoring record is okay as our lead striker even though they’ve scored the same number of goals. Salah has scored more goals than both combined but Chelsea are ahead of Liverpool in every way this season. Hazard scores less than some of his peers as we need less goals to win a game. Most of these players score loads of tap ins to beef up their stats, guy just doesn’t have that luxury. Almost every Hazard goal is due to individual brilliance as his teammates are just not capable of letting him pad his stats. There’s a reason even players like Sane, Who plays with KDB rates Hazard higher and place him in a similar bracket to Messi. I hope he stays but if he goes to a more attacking team, most of his sceptics will eat their words. 

heh not sure I follow the whole debate around wastefulness in possession - which is indeed entirely about system, instructions, and team movement.

The most obvious and glaring thing, and what most use to rate key players is exactly that: how decisive they are.

Hazard fans seem to see something that the numbers don't show. The ones who do notice that, blame the team and say he will hit his stride when he moves away. I find far more likely that at 27yo, this is Hazard's ceiling.

Just different opinions, but for me there are a number of more consistently decisive players than Hazard, Neymar included.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

11 minutes ago, Robguima said:

heh not sure I follow the whole debate around wastefulness in possession - which is indeed entirely about system, instructions, and team movement.

The most obvious and glaring thing, and what most use to rate key players is exactly that: how decisive they are.

Hazard fans seem to see something that the numbers don't show. The ones who do notice that, blame the team and say he will hit his stride when he moves away. I find far more likely that at 27yo, this is Hazard's ceiling.

Just different opinions, but for me there are a number of more consistently decisive players than Hazard, Neymar included.

The thing is when you say decisive you pretty much just mean comparing goals and assists right ?

I don't look at just goals and assists or even chances created, take ons, etc. I don't just look at the output of a player but take into account how much he puts in.

Input vs output. How many times did he try to beat a player vs how many times did he beat a player. How many shots did he take vs how many goals did he score.

That's where the wastefullness in possession comes in. How does a player use the ball. How efficient is he with it. There's only so much possession a team can have, only so many shots a team can sustain. 

How much possession a team has and how many shots they can supply matters to the attacking players. The less quality and the more defensive system the team plays the less possession they have and the less shots they can supply. 

That has an effect on how many shots an attacking player can take and how much possession he has to waste.  

If Hazard moves to a bigger club i do feel he'd benefit from it.

You can't tell me that Hazard wouldn't have better numbers if he played in a more attacking system with more quality surrounding him with players like Suarez-Messi compared to what he has here with Morata-Pedro/Wilian/Bakayoko/Drinkwater  being his support.

[robsblubot 3,595]

7 hours ago, Belgiannutt said:

The thing is when you say decisive you pretty much just mean comparing goals and assists right ?

I don't look at just goals and assists or even chances created, take ons, etc. I don't just look at the output of a player but take into account how much he puts in.

Input vs output. How many times did he try to beat a player vs how many times did he beat a player. How many shots did he take vs how many goals did he score.

That's where the wastefullness in possession comes in. How does a player use the ball. How efficient is he with it. There's only so much possession a team can have, only so many shots a team can sustain. 

How much possession a team has and how many shots they can supply matters to the attacking players. The less quality and the more defensive system the team plays the less possession they have and the less shots they can supply. 

That has an effect on how many shots an attacking player can take and how much possession he has to waste.  

If Hazard moves to a bigger club i do feel he'd benefit from it.

You can't tell me that Hazard wouldn't have better numbers if he played in a more attacking system with more quality surrounding him with players like Suarez-Messi compared to what he has here with Morata-Pedro/Wilian/Bakayoko/Drinkwater  being his support.

Yeah will have to agree to disagree.

Neymar is better than hazard in every aspect of the game for me.

if I need to win a match and can pick ANY attacking player in the world, well that’s how I rate how decisive a player is/what’s his effect in a game. Who is more likely to win games one way or another.

hazards poor finishing will follow him wherever he goes and will always hinder him in such comparisons. Still a great player just not as big as folks here say he is, again, for me.

[DDA 9,938]

3 hours ago, Belgiannutt said:

The thing is when you say decisive you pretty much just mean comparing goals and assists right ?

I don't look at just goals and assists or even chances created, take ons, etc. I don't just look at the output of a player but take into account how much he puts in.

Input vs output. How many times did he try to beat a player vs how many times did he beat a player. How many shots did he take vs how many goals did he score.

That's where the wastefullness in possession comes in. How does a player use the ball. How efficient is he with it. There's only so much possession a team can have, only so many shots a team can sustain. 

How much possession a team has and how many shots they can supply matters to the attacking players. The less quality and the more defensive system the team plays the less possession they have and the less shots they can supply. 

That has an effect on how many shots an attacking player can take and how much possession he has to waste.  

If Hazard moves to a bigger club i do feel he'd benefit from it.

You can't tell me that Hazard wouldn't have better numbers if he played in a more attacking system with more quality surrounding him with players like Suarez-Messi compared to what he has here with Morata-Pedro/Wilian/Bakayoko/Drinkwater  being his support.

Football is about goals. The more goals you score... the more chance you have of winning. An attacking players role is to achieve either scoring goals or assisting others. Eden, unfortunately possesses amazing dribbling ability but he isn't really a clinical finisher and it's not as if he can pass like Iniesta. He is effective because he is extremely mobile and can turn on a sixpence. The amount of times I have watched Eden run past half a dozen players to then either take too many touches, not pass or shoot and end up doing alot of nothing is beyond frustrstion.

[Thor 2,702]

Guess we should just get Salah back. Clearly because he scores goals, he is far better. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Guess we should just get Salah back. Clearly because he scores goals, he is far better. 

would 'yes' be the right answer? 

I know you are being sarcastic, but right now if we need a goal with 15min to go, and you need to pick between Salah and Hazard, I don't think that's an easy choice... from a purely stats and probabilities pov, you might want to stick with the player more likely to score. However, your lineup may already have plenty of goal scorers, so dribbling and movement might be preferable. Would be very good for that manager to have to deal with that dilemma though... only if a club could muster such a feat 

Honestly, Hazard is fair game... like he said himself, Messi is the best player in the last 15 years or so (after Diego).

Which makes the rest fair, and as far as I am concerned, fun game (and I did see the very end of Maradona's career - fully agree with Eden about messi).

Why do we keep comparing Hazard with the likes of Neymar like someone else asked? because it's fun! 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

15 hours ago, Belgiannutt said:

Neymar wouldn't be able to do what he does at PSG or did at Barcelona. Here you can't lose the ball as many times as he does. 

In the 16/17 CL season he was in the top 5 most wasteful performances 3 times. http://www.givemesport.com/1034576-neymar-recorded-an-embarrassing-champions-league-statistic-against-juventus

Lost possession 46 times, 41 times, 38 times. That's a lot.

Even this season comparing Hazard and Neymar.

Hazard:  in the PL: dispossessed 1.8, Unsuccesful touches 1.5 in the CL : dispossessed 1.5 Unsuccesful touches 2.8

Neymar: in Ligue 1: dispossessed 3.1, Unsuccesful touches 3.3 in the CL : dispossessed 3 Unsuccesful touches 5.8

Neymar loses the ball nearly double as much as Hazard does and Neymar plays in a weaker league. If Neymar came here he wouldn't have that luxury.

He wouldn't have as many opportunities to try things as he does at PSG or Barca and that would certainly effect his output. 

Here Hazard simply doesn't have the luxury of losing the ball 46 times in a game. 

 I don't believe i said we were an extremely poor team but you have to admit that for a topteam we sure have a lot of average and defensive players in our squad. 

Alonso, Moses,  Cahill, Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappa, Rudiger. All average players. Willian wouldn't be a starter for a top club. Fabregas and Pedro were considered surplus to requirements and sold by Barcelona and both are past their best. . 

Neither of them would be starting for a top team nowadays.

Morata was a super sub for Real but is struggling to be the main guy here.(jury's still out on him.) Our only real quality players are Courtois, Azpi, Christensen, Kante and Hazard. 1 gk, 2 cb's, 1 dm and 1 am/ss. 

1 attacking player, 4 defensive ones.

 Fabregas wouldn't be starting ahead of Veratti or Rabiot. Morata wouldn't start ahead of Cavani. The only players who have a chance of playing in that PSG team are the 5 players i mentioned above. 

No it's not lame, the quality of your team mates matters. How attacking or how defensive your team plays matters. There's a reason PSG bought Neymar AND Mbappe. 

"Brought them up a level" There's no doubt that their attack has been improved with the additions of Neymar and Mbappe but they've won the league 4 times in the last 5 without them. 

They were already a quality side before them.

"He can play poor and still score 2 goals" that's kinda ties in with what i was saying in the beginning of my post .The luxury Neymar has that Hazard doesn't.

Neymar can/could play like shit for PSG/Barca and his team would still be able to get him into good positions and still dominate the opposition. 

If Hazard has a poor game our attack is pretty much a dead stick and the chances of us dominating opponents, let alone actually creating dangerous chances for him to score are extremely unlikely. 

If Hazard isn't heavily involved in our attack then our attack just goes nowhere most of the time. There's a massive burden on Hazard to create openings and chances . He never had a Messi/Mbappe to share the burden.

Ofcourse Hazard has done it for us before but it's a lot more difficult to do when you don't have another quality partner to share the burden.

 Teams know Hazard is our focal point. A lot of times they'll  put multiple players on him and we don't have a Messi/ Mbappe to exploit that or force that level of attention unto themselves.

I agree he should be scoring more. While i agree that part of that is because of himself and his reluctance to shoot at times, i also think what i said above about not having a quality partner,being marked by multiple players, us playing with a lot of average and defensive players, playing in a defensive system plays a part in him not being able to reach the 20 goal mark here.

Also how many times do we actually push for more goals when we're up by a goal. How many times has Hazard been subbed 10-20 minutes before time for a more defensive approach to defend a 1-2 goal lead.

 

I honestly don't like Hazard in the false 9 role it makes it more difficult to get him on the ball and i don't think a false 9 goes with the way Conte likes to play.

Srry for the long post.

I still think Neymar if he were here would have better amount of goals and assists than Eden does, that is my main issue with Eden, great player etc key to the team but people keep talking about him like he has to leave to hit that next level, he has to score more goals to hit that next level, his team mates don't necessarily stop him scoring more goals because he does get into positions where your thinking go on shoot, just isnt being ruthless enough in situations where others would shoot without second guessing. Not only this season but the last 2 or so seasons, hes been excellent in a lot of things, chances created, dribbles per game etc but goals still an issue and for me will continue to be because I know how good he is, we all do, but again... needs to boost his goals. Both Mourinho and Conte have also said he can score more goals. Be surprised if Roberto Martinez hasn't said something similar.

Sure Neymar loses the ball more but he is that sort of player, he takes a huge amount of risks. not that Hazard doesn't but do you think people will really tend to give a shit if Neymar was losing the ball X amount of times a game despite constantly scoring and assisting every match? That gives him a bit of leeway. In the way we play, losing the ball in the final third due to trying to be overly ambitious wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue for me, too often will one of our attackers do the hard bit then play a sideways or backwards pass instead of trying something a bit more unorthodox or perhaps something that might seem less probable to come off. Even in our MF the same issue, get so far then go backwards. Not directly an issue with Eden but the team in general, sure maybe holds him back a little bit but don't think its like stopping him from hitting that next level. I still think more can come from all our attacking players. Regarding the whole domination thing, we do dominate a lot of our opponents for large periods of the game, it can't be said that we don't concede play sometimes and come under pressure but that happens, there is plenty moments where we have the opportunity to score a few goals more, if its late on Conte shuts up shop but hes an Italian isnt he? Also I'd rather see us win 1-0 than draw or lose trying to go for a 4-0 at the 75th minute and onward. 

Wouldn't say that Cesc and Pedro being sold from Barca makes them bad players, Ozil and Di Maria were sold at Real, Sanchez at Barca.... Salah, De Bruyne, Lukaku etc were sold from here and have gone on to make good careers as well.

But yeah fair enough, difference of opinions. 

 

6 hours ago, Thor said:

Guess we should just get Salah back. Clearly because he scores goals, he is far better. 

People would have Salah back here because hes better than Willian or Pedro. Probably mainly due to the fact he actually does something with the ball when he gets it. Hes not predictable.

 

3 hours ago, Robguima said:

would 'yes' be the right answer? 

I know you are being sarcastic, but right now if we need a goal with 15min to go, and you need to pick between Salah and Hazard, I don't think that's an easy choice... from a purely stats and probabilities pov, you might want to stick with the player more likely to score. However, your lineup may already have plenty of goal scorers, so dribbling and movement might be preferable. Would be very good for that manager to have to deal with that dilemma though... only if a club could muster such a feat 

Honestly, Hazard is fair game... like he said himself, Messi is the best player in the last 15 years or so (after Diego).

Which makes the rest fair, and as far as I am concerned, fun game (and I did see the very end of Maradona's career - fully agree with Eden about messi).

Why do we keep comparing Hazard with the likes of Neymar like someone else asked? because it's fun! 

We compare them because they both are world class players in their own right and play in the same position? (Unsure if sarcasm or not). 

[bluephoenix 1,131]

Chelsea will refuse any Manchester City bid for Eden Hazard - even if the Premier League leaders offer to break the world-record fee of £200m. -The daily telegraph  via SkySports transfer center.

[Special Juan 28,141]

Right now you couldn't blame him going there, a club with mass ambition just like Eden and that's exactly how it should be.

[manpe 10,861]

City are genuinely interested in him? Confirmed by reliable sources?

[Tomo 21,751]

On January 28, 2018 at 5:59 AM, DDA said:

Football is about goals. The more goals you score... the more chance you have of winning. An attacking players role is to achieve either scoring goals or assisting others. Eden, unfortunately possesses amazing dribbling ability but he isn't really a clinical finisher and it's not as if he can pass like Iniesta. He is effective because he is extremely mobile and can turn on a sixpence. The amount of times I have watched Eden run past half a dozen players to then either take too many touches, not pass or shoot and end up doing alot of nothing is beyond frustrstion.

If it was as straight forward as that then why aren't Lampard and Gerrard considered greater than Iniesta and Xavi?

Eden's way can achieve goals at times Neymar's and Bale's shoot on sight policy's won't, like when Eden releases the ball at a position they would have shot most likely off target and few moves later we score.And you are right that more goals equal more chances off winning, but equally losing the ball or having a bad touch  (which as @Belgiannutt has showed Neymar' does on average 3 times more a game than Eden) can lead to good attacks breaking down and alas less chances of scoring and ultimately winning.