🇧🇷 David Luiz

[-Kaplan- 410]

well, thats why i dint take into account the game he played as RW. the games they have started as CMs is 6-2 in a 8 match sample. should tell u a lot in that too.

i was not defending rambo. anyone who puts in a tackle like he did against villa, deserves to be banned. again, its all on your first statement and the follow ups. jose has chosen rambo over luiz.

He chose oscar over mata.

But, everything he did was right, No? That's being 1-dimensional.

[lionsden 4,689]

So because Luiz is younger he can be useful? I'm sorry but Luiz was bought in January of 2012 and still to this day has not cemented his spot into this team. He has been far from solid as a CB and thus was moved to CM where he hasn't been much better.

Luiz is the crossword that has never been solved but I hear people saying he is outstanding for Brazil yet he has played some very average games for Chelsea to a point people calling him world class. This guy should be sold, he fetches good money, he hasn't fulfilled his so called potential here and selling him for 30M is like getting Costa for nothing.

You are saying that next season may not be the same and using the crystal ball method……I can do that, Luiz isn't a long term solution because he doesn't have a consistent position, does he? the rumours of him being sold aren't for no reason, I fully believe that Jose doesn't trust this bloke because for me he has been very, very inconsistent.

30M, I will fly the plane.

Not to be pedantic he was bought in 2011 which makes it even worse.

[lionsden 4,689]

I think it's a risk to keep only Terry and Cahill as experienced defenders.

Don't even start the bullshit about Ivanovic being a replacement. I wasn't part of his forum last season, but I know how terrible at moments all of those three looked (Terry, Cahill and Iva) and Luiz was by far our best defender.

Then this season things changed. Cahill improved, Iva stopped playing as a CB and Terry stayed healthy. Is it written in the rock that those three things will remain the same? We don't know if Cole is staying (don't think he is), we don't know if Luke is coming, so we actually need Iva as a RB (even with Cole here we need Iva to play as a RB).

So we have Kalas and Zouma and if one between Terry and Cahill (especially the former) gets injured for longer than a couple of weeks, that's who we're relying on? Kalas and Zouma? I actually do believe they'll be great for us soon, but that's a lot unnecessary pressure and that's not how Mourinho likes his defense. If Courtois comes (and I think he will), I think Mourinho will stick with experience more than anything else in the four defenders. Cole has been unreliable as a defender lately, being much more useful and trustful in the attack.

I can understand the money talking, I even agree financially is good business. Luiz isn't Mata. We can't even start compare the situations. Luiz is versatile, is much more suited to our system than Mata ever dreamed of, and Luiz had a dip of form that justified his absence. I'm not saying the deal won't happen. I used to be convinced through all season :Luiz couldn't leave. I'm not as much right now because he's the kind of player José likes to have in the squad and if he has a great WC and finds form, I'm still pretty convinced he's staying.

The only problem with your post is that it's based on the notion that Luiz is reliable at CB and plays like an experienced defender when the opposite is the case. bar a few good run of forms, he's thus far proven to be unreliable and very inexperienced bothering on amateurish level at times. experience is meaningless if it's not reflected in ones game. Even if it' true that we need more experience in defence, Luiz isn't a good example to use to present the case. Also the experience factor is not significant enough to justify rejecting £30m plus offer for a back up defender.

[The only place to be 11,313]

..hoof ball specialist?!

Where everyone says he's a 'better midfield player' because of his footwork, you've labelled him a hoof specialist? Cahill has 'hoofed' the ball away many times this season.. In fact everyone has when we've been pushed against it in the final 10 minutes.

He still has to work on controlling when exactly he chooses to carry the ball out of possession but his ability on the ball surely can't be going against him?

I wouldn't call him a hoof ball specialist because that implies he's a early-90s Wimbledon-style 'route one' merchant which he isn't.

But he went from being a player who always tried to dribble out of trouble to a player who would routinely hoof the ball away in ANY direction. It's like someone told him 'when in doubt, kick it out' and he literally felt he had to do that whenever he had even a moment's doubt, so you had this odd situation in a match earlier in the season (can't remember exactly which one right now) where he seemed to just punt the ball away whenever it came near him in the last 5-10 minutes.

Cahill is actually getting close to Terry in the 'underrated ability to pass' league. Neither is Frank Leboeuf (still the most beautiful passing defender I've seen - the passes being beautiful, not him....although when he shaved that last remaining hair off...I digress) but they keep it simple.

For Luiz it's not the ability to pass that is the issue....it's the judgment. Fact is you acknowledge that in your last sentence. He's 27. We're talking about the same issues he had at 23.

[The Skipper 20,609]

Not to be pedantic he was bought in 2011 which makes it even worse.

To me, in no way has Luiz been a bad transfer, simply because he hasn't depreciated in value. If we do sell him we'll still fetch £30m for him which is fine.

Also, Luiz has had a bad/average season this year, so naturally people will completely forget the strong finish he had the season before where he was one of our better players, with most of his good games coming at CB. It wasn't like he wasn't improving. Luiz has had quite a few quality performances at CB exclusively for us which some seem to have completely forgotten - suitably to their agenda against Luiz - but before this season started he was definitely our best CB and he was really set to establish himself as a top CB but he obviously regressed this season due to numerous reasons.

It's not fair to fully assess his CB performances IMO this season because he was never really given an extended run in. I think he only had a bout 10 games at CB which isn't enough at all.

It's simple - if he was as bad as some are trying to make out on here, he would in no way be attracting top clubs like Bayern, PSG & Barcelona (these guys aren't stupid), and he would in no way still be Brazil's (who have more than competent central defenders about) starting CB.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I'm sure some of his more devout followers will also try to propagate a myth that he wasn't given chances. He was. In fact he started more games in his preferred position (CB) than Azpilicueta did up to the start of November. In that time Mourinho felt he had to drop him twice and Cahill then won the spot on merit (like Azpi).

Maybe Jose has an agenda against Luiz.

Simple fact is that the shirt was up for grabs and Cahill won it with his performances whilst Luiz almost could be said to have lost it with his.

Maybe the stats are biased against Brazilians though (as one poster implied I am, despite me consistently defending Oscar on here...oh well).

Edited May 21, 2014 by Rmpr
Content moderated due to offensive language towards other members.

[Spike 12,049]

People are allowed to have opinions on players regardless of their own nationality and the player's respective nationality. Criticising or even implying users have agendas against certain nationalities is rather childish and neolithic.

Before this threads steps up another level of animosity I suggest taking a step back from the keyboard sword.

[Fulham Broadway 17,315]

Need to keep him if poss. Sometimes he can't see the options available, all he needs to do is get a proper haircut.

[lionsden 4,689]

To me, in no way has Luiz been a bad transfer, simply because he hasn't depreciated in value. If we do sell him we'll still fetch £30m for him which is fine.

That's one way of measuring it another way will be to evaluate performance and value of a player to the team. A successful transfer is one that proves to be good/great value for money.

Also, Luiz has had a bad/average season this year, so naturally people will completely forget the strong finish he had the season before where he was one of our better players, with most of his good games coming at CB. It wasn't like he wasn't improving. Luiz has had quite a few quality performances at CB exclusively for us which some seem to have completely forgotten - suitably to their agenda against Luiz - but before this season started he was definitely our best CB and he was really set to establish himself as a top CB but he obviously regressed this season due to numerous reasons.

You see that's another problem right there. strong finish to the season clearly indicates irregularities and inconsistency (which is a major flaw of his) otherwise the statement would be "strong/great season" period. it shows he wasn't consistent through out the season and unfortunately for us he plays in a position where mistakes and inconsistencies can be very costly and are usually punished. we need a consistent and reliable performer.

It's not fair to fully assess his CB performances IMO this season because he was never really given an extended run in. I think he only had a bout 10 games at CB which isn't enough at all.

It's simple - if he was as bad as some are trying to make out on here, he would in no way be attracting top clubs like Bayern, PSG & Barcelona (these guys aren't stupid), and he would in no way still be Brazil's (who have more than competent central defenders about) starting CB.

No we are assessing his CB performance since he joined and the conclusion is that he's unreliable and inconsistent.

[mediator 2,026]

It's simple, if Luiz really wants to leave, so let him go for at least 30M£

but if he wants to stay with us, then we should keep him

[The Skipper 20,609]

That's one way of measuring it another way will be to evaluate performance and value of a player to the team. A successful transfer is one that proves to be good/great value for money.

Luiz has not been a bad player for us though (i.e. Torres bad - that is a truly disastrous signing) - if he was his value would've obviously gone down. I wouldn't say the Luiz transfer has been a major success but to say it's been a bad signing is simply wrong in my opinion, simply because he has not depreciated in value.

You see that's another problem right there. strong finish to the season clearly indicates irregularities and inconsistency (which is a major flaw of his) otherwise the statement would be "strong/great season" period. it shows he wasn't consistent through out the season and unfortunately for us he plays in a position where mistakes and inconsistencies can be very costly and are usually punished. we need a consistent and reliable performer.

No we are assessing his CB performance since he joined and the conclusion is that he's unreliable and inconsistent.

I fully agree that consistency was Luiz's biggest problem, never will I deny that - but the fact that he finished the season strongly for us last year and then went on to also have a very good Confederations Cup tournament had many on here hoping that this season would be the season where he truly broke out as a top CB.

Obviously because of various reasons - i.e. not having a pre season, being injured when he came back, form issues and JT + Cahill being very solid throughout the year which justifiably meant he didn't get an extended look in when Jose did make the team defensively more solid - that didn't happen, but that's football, not everything goes perfectly to plan so I'm not complaining about that in the slightest.

If we sell him it's good business for the club, if not, we keep him - he's still a very good squad player to have around and can still produce excellent performances for us. He might even get another run in at CB - who knows. Either way, it's not the end of the world if we sell, nor is it the end of the world if we keep him.

[lionsden 4,689]

Luiz has not been a bad player for us though (i.e. Torres bad - that is a truly disastrous signing) - if he was his value would've obviously gone down. I wouldn't say the Luiz transfer has been a major success but to say it's been a bad signing is simply wrong in my opinion, simply because he has not depreciated in value.

Technically Luiz cost the club £46m. The £24m we paid Benfica plus the £22m, the player that was involved in the exchange (Matic), cost to reacquire. The only way his actual value would have appreciated was if he was valued at/ or sold for £46m plus.

I fully agree that consistency was Luiz's biggest problem, never will I deny that - but the fact that he finished the season strongly for us last year and then went on to also have a very good Confederations Cup tournament had many on here hoping that this season would be the season where he truly broke out as a top CB.

Obviously because of various reasons - i.e. not having a pre season, being injured when he came back, form issues and JT + Cahill being very solid throughout the year which justifiably meant he didn't get an extended look in when Jose did make the team defensively more solid - that didn't happen, but that's football, not everything goes perfectly to plan so I'm not complaining about that in the slightest.

If we sell him it's good business for the club, if not, we keep him - he's still a very good squad player to have around and can still produce excellent performances for us. He might even get another run in at CB - who knows. Either way, it's not the end of the world if we sell, nor is it the end of the world if we keep him.

This is a reasonable and honest reply tbf. can't disagree with that.

[The Skipper 20,609]

Technically Luiz cost the club £46m. The £24m we paid Benfica plus the £22m, the player that was involved in the exchange (Matic), cost to reacquire. The only way his actual value would have appreciated was if he was valued at/ or sold for £46m plus.

This is a reasonable and honest reply tbf. can't disagree with that.

We can easily overlook that technicality because you and I both know there is no way Matic would be the player he is today had we kept him around. Matic now is a completely different entity to the Matic we signed back in 2009. Benfica did us a massive favour in fact - not only in developing him as a player but also in selling him back to us at a very, very decent price.

Happy to have a fair debate about Luiz on here with you though, some seem to be incapable of that.

[Steve 10,227]

Would be gutted if we let Luiz leave. Mou can turn him world class if he gives him a proper chance. With dicapline he can be one of the best but only if he is trained correctly

[couris 232]

Its intriguing that the most loud voices against Luiz always come from english members...

More like the extreme Jose lovers.

[LAB 1,030]

Most of you covered the subject nicely. But i believe Jose likes him and he is not going to sell him. His versatility is something special for me. You can't find players like Luiz easily. But if we sell him that's the thing i am going to miss and not so much his defensive qualities.

[Beepu 1,714]

Beepu,

You need to look at Luiz as a footballer & not as a person. Chelsea plays football games.

The club has not hired Luiz for his charming personality. Lol.

Re-read what I wrote. I said I like him as a person but it would be stupid to reject an offer of that amount eh.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

I wouldn't call him a hoof ball specialist because that implies he's a early-90s Wimbledon-style 'route one' merchant which he isn't.

But he went from being a player who always tried to dribble out of trouble to a player who would routinely hoof the ball away in ANY direction. It's like someone told him 'when in doubt, kick it out' and he literally felt he had to do that whenever he had even a moment's doubt, so you had this odd situation in a match earlier in the season (can't remember exactly which one right now) where he seemed to just punt the ball away whenever it came near him in the last 5-10 minutes.

Cahill is actually getting close to Terry in the 'underrated ability to pass' league. Neither is Frank Leboeuf (still the most beautiful passing defender I've seen - the passes being beautiful, not him....although when he shaved that last remaining hair off...I digress) but they keep it simple.

For Luiz it's not the ability to pass that is the issue....it's the judgment. Fact is you acknowledge that in your last sentence. He's 27. We're talking about the same issues he had at 23.

Agreed, there was a mentality switch in him to go from carrying the ball out to hoofing.

But I honestly believe that switch was imposed on him by someone. We know Luiz is a ball playing defender, kind of a sweeper of the old tactical days, but he's not as mature and is shy of the technical ability needed to do it consistently & successfully. So his natural instinct will be to do just that, we've seen that from 2011-13, that's why I believe he's been told to do it by Mourinho. As I said before, we've seen Cahill and Terry demonstrate it this season also.

I agree about judgement which he hasn't been able to mature yet. £25-30million is an extraordinary fee for a 27-year old defender who's been displaced in the squad, so it wouldn't be the worst case scenario in the world, but I share the view others posted in this thread.. We can't go into next season with Cahill, Terry, Kalas and Zouma as our CBs, we need someone with experience and someone with big game mentality (it wouldn't be fair to say Luiz doesn't have that maturity in him, his immaturity is only displayed in the less important games).

Unless Mourinho has such a replacement lined up, I'd think we'd regret the sale of Luiz.

[LAB 1,030]

I acknowledge that we might miss Luiz in some cases, but why everyone seems to ignore Ivanovic? I think he is very good and experienced player who can play CB if needed. Besides, where is his place next season if we buy a fullback?

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Its intriguing that the most loud voices against Luiz always come from english members...

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.