25. Moisés Caicedo

[OneMoSalah 8,778]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

You all wanted him and rated him prior to coming here - and now he is shit? 

His pass to set up the second goal was top class. 

Our midfielders are good players - you don't suddenly just become shit. We just seem to have people not playing the roles they are best at. Poch needs to put his players in positions to be successful. I don't think it is on the midfielders as much as it is Poch. 

Caicedo isn’t necessarily a defensive midfielder or a number 6 as such but we are probably asking him to do that role.

It is weird though because sometimes he can look alright in possession but then other times he is just so negative and slack in possession. Or takes far too many touches.

Him and Enzo have been huge disappointments this season. Can’t deny that. And MC was never going to be worth £115m ever. And never will. But we paid it. Enzo probably fall into that bracket as well. But still not wrong to expect much more from these 2. Brighton and Benfica were both no doubt ecstatic with the deals they got, as you would expect them to be, £220-225m between them for 2 players that had played 150 odd club games between them. As anyone would be. 

[robsblubot 3,508]

13 hours ago, Thor said:

You all wanted him and rated him prior to coming here - and now he is shit? 

His pass to set up the second goal was top class. 

Our midfielders are good players - you don't suddenly just become shit. We just seem to have people not playing the roles they are best at. Poch needs to put his players in positions to be successful. I don't think it is on the midfielders as much as it is Poch. 

"you all" is a lot of people. Who are you discussing this with?

He did not impress me at Brighton, which means I certainly did not want him, esp at that obnoxious price tag. I also don't think he's shit.

Yes, they are good players (still not sold on Conor tbh), but the price we paid for Caicedo wasn't for "a good player." I know the market is crazy, but Liverpool for ex got quality midfielders for reasonable fees. You pay 100m for key players, players who give you a big advantage over the opposition.. does Caicedo?!

Edited December 31, 2023 by robsblubot

[Thor 2,394]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

"you all" is a lot of people. Who are you discussing this with?

He did not impress me at Brighton, which means I certainly did not want him, esp at that obnoxious price tag. I also don't think he's shit.

Yes, they are good players (still not sold on Conor tbh), but the price we paid for Caicedo wasn't for "a good player." I know the market is crazy, but Liverpool for ex got quality midfielders for reasonable fees. You pay 100m for key players, players who give you a big advantage over the opposition.. does Caicedo?!

He was the best player at his position last year in the PL. Statistically you could make the case he was up there in all of Europe too. So I don't know what impresses you. 

Coming into a new team, not playing your natural role, and only being 21? Or whatever he is... 

 

I don't care about price tags. We aren't the ones buying. The reality is - 95% of the board was happy when we got him - because everyone thought we got a class player. Now? Apparently he is dog water.

People sit here and blame the board - when they were ecstatic with the purchases they made at the time. Its like blaming your boss when they give you a big account, says they're going to sign, you fully agree and are on board with it based on the info and what you see - then blame your boss when it all falls apart and take no responsibility. 

[robsblubot 3,508]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

He was the best player at his position last year in the PL. Statistically you could make the case he was up there in all of Europe too. So I don't know what impresses you. 

Coming into a new team, not playing your natural role, and only being 21? Or whatever he is... 

 

I don't care about price tags. We aren't the ones buying. The reality is - 95% of the board was happy when we got him - because everyone thought we got a class player. Now? Apparently he is dog water.

People sit here and blame the board - when they were ecstatic with the purchases they made at the time. Its like blaming your boss when they give you a big account, says they're going to sign, you fully agree and are on board with it based on the info and what you see - then blame your boss when it all falls apart and take no responsibility. 

And you don't? They let go of all senior players all at once. Signed a bunch of kids and many of us, myself included, predicted this most obvious outcome of midtable struggles. Here's another, without addressing the weaknesses of the team (w/ senior players not U23), next season won't be any different regardless of manager or whatnot.

Regarding your initial point, Cucurella also looked pretty good at Brighton. And once again, I think Caicedo is a good player and I don't even think having a pure DM is needed these days. It really depends on your team setup. We won CL with passers and B2B players. I REALLY do not care what he did for Brighton. His career started now, if he is to fulfill his potential that is. Right now, he's not all that great tbh -- call the way I see it.

Money matters because there are limits and because it sets precedents. For all the money spent, our midfield is pretty average without Enzo, or when Enzo struggles. Maybe Lavia will help, if folks here are right about him, but I think it's pretty much the same as with Caicedo: this is also Lavia's big test.

[Magic Lamps 11,655]

I also did not like the "you all" statement. I wrote a plethora of posts why i did not want him and why he is not good enough in summer and loads of ppl on here agreed. Now, I can't even help but notice that he is even worse than I thought.

While I am aware there are some handpicked statistics that with a bit of fantasy make him look like he was one of the better mids in PL last season. But from the eye test alone you could see that he lacks the talent and technique to play for a big club. He might have averaged more tackles than Rodri last season but still the  latter is 100x the player Caicedo will ever be. You do not need to be a scout or a statistician to see that.

Many of our signings have been based on Boehly's weird moneyball approach. So through that lens, Caicedo may look like the ideal player. But football is not like Baseball or Basketball where there are so many quantifiable plays that the law of large numbers gives you statistics with some predictive value. Football is the opposite. A low scoring game where mathces are decided by few vital moments. The moments where Caicedo routinely comes up short. How many chances have we already conceded, how many points lost because of his stupid errors and braindead turnovers. Other DMs like Rice, Douglas luiz, Palhinha, Rodri are not perfect eitehr but they at least try to take responsibilty when the going gets tough - some score big goals at times, even though its not their main job. Caicedo is the opposite. Not only is the mere idea of Caicedo scoring a late winner a joke in itself. Whenever it is crunch time in a tight game we routinely get overrun in midfield and Caicedo is the main culprit - passager at best, assist king for the opposition at worst. At this point it is hard to find a worse DM in the league.

Clearly, he was still way better not only statistically last season at Brighton than he is for us but this now is not some blip in form. If you look at his career the outlier was last season not this. He got some purple patch going last season and made a few nice tackles that caught the eye. Many of his statisics are also skewed by the fact that he played some games in defence so he naturally got more tackles in than other midfielders. Now his purple patch has passed and he is back to being the average player he actually is. Sometimes it is that simple.

Edited January 1 by Magic Lamps

[Thor 2,394]

1 hour ago, Magic Lamps said:

I also did not like the "you all" statement. I wrote a plethora of posts why i did not want him and why he is not good enough in summer and loads of ppl on here agreed. Now, I can't even help but notice that he is even worse than I thought.

While I am aware there are some handpicked statistics that with a bit of fantasy make him look like he was one of the better mids in PL last season. But from the eye test alone you could see that he lacks the talent and technique to play for a big club. He might have averaged more tackles than Rodri last season but still the  latter is 100x the player Caicedo will ever be. You do not need to be a scout or a statistician to see that.

Many of our signings have been based on Boehly's weird moneyball approach. So through that lens, Caicedo may look like the ideal player. But football is not like Baseball or Basketball where there are so many quantifiable plays that the law of large numbers gives you statistics with some predictive value. Football is the opposite. A low scoring game where mathces are decided by few vital moments. The moments where Caicedo routinely comes up short. How many chances have we already conceded, how many points lost because of his stupid errors and braindead turnovers. Other DMs like Rice, Douglas luiz, Palhinha, Rodri are not perfect eitehr but they at least try to take responsibilty when the going gets tough - some score big goals at times, even though its not their main job. Caicedo is the opposite. Not only is the mere idea of Caicedo scoring a late winner a joke in itself. Whenever it is crunch time in a tight game we routinely get overrun in midfield and Caicedo is the main culprit - passager at best, assist king for the opposition at worst. At this point it is hard to find a worse DM in the league.

Clearly, he was still way better not only statistically last season at Brighton than he is for us but this now is not some blip in form. If you look at his career the outlier was last season not this. He got some purple patch going last season and made a few nice tackles that caught the eye. Many of his statisics are also skewed by the fact that he played some games in defence so he naturally got more tackles in than other midfielders. Now his purple patch has passed and he is back to being the average player he actually is. Sometimes it is that simple.

Clearly "you all" doesn't mean every single person. Jesus... Prior to coming here I wasn't as high on him as others. Point still stands. There was a resounding happiness overall. If it isn't you specifically then move on. Majority - not every single human to support Chelsea - were happy. Better? 

What eye test? The more I watched of him, the more I saw him splitting defences and carrying the ball. He was one of the best carriers of the ball in pressure situations. Stats back that up - so did the eye test. 

He isn't better than Rodri? Who is? And you're ready to make the call he won't be 1/100th the player at 21 years of age? You have issues with my statement of "you all" which clearly meant majority - yet you make all encompassing statements like this. Caceido was our best midfielder against Luton, so I'm not sure where the hate is coming from after that game.

Last season wasn't an outlier. How can last season be an outlier, and this run of games not be a blip? Your own logic is failing against you when the previous run of form was longer lol... He is in a new team, unsettled, struggled with nagging injuries a bit - and he outplayed the City, Arsenal, and other top midfields. 

Yes - the 21 year old player we purchased is done - and clearly has no upside. It is that simple. He is just bang average. 

 

FML the overreaction on this forum. And in the same vein actually hypes up Rice - who's team we are only 4 games behind and worse than last season - and the team he left has flourished since he left. Work that out.  

[robsblubot 3,508]

2 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

While I am aware there are some handpicked statistics that with a bit of fantasy make him look like he was one of the better mids in PL last season. But from the eye test alone you could see that he lacks the talent and technique to play for a big club. He might have averaged more tackles than Rodri last season but still the  latter is 100x the player Caicedo will ever be. You do not need to be a scout or a statistician to see that.

Yeah that's a difficult point to get across around here. Different circumstances w/ vastly different variables diminish the value of such stats.

58 minutes ago, Thor said:

Clearly "you all" doesn't mean every single person. Jesus... Prior to coming here I wasn't as high on him as others. Point still stands. There was a resounding happiness overall. If it isn't you specifically then move on. Majority - not every single human to support Chelsea - were happy. Better? 

What eye test? The more I watched of him, the more I saw him splitting defences and carrying the ball. He was one of the best carriers of the ball in pressure situations. Stats back that up - so did the eye test. 

He isn't better than Rodri? Who is? And you're ready to make the call he won't be 1/100th the player at 21 years of age? You have issues with my statement of "you all" which clearly meant majority - yet you make all encompassing statements like this. Caceido was our best midfielder against Luton, so I'm not sure where the hate is coming from after that game.

Last season wasn't an outlier. How can last season be an outlier, and this run of games not be a blip? Your own logic is failing against you when the previous run of form was longer lol... He is in a new team, unsettled, struggled with nagging injuries a bit - and he outplayed the City, Arsenal, and other top midfields. 

Yes - the 21 year old player we purchased is done - and clearly has no upside. It is that simple. He is just bang average. 

 

FML the overreaction on this forum. And in the same vein actually hypes up Rice - who's team we are only 4 games behind and worse than last season - and the team he left has flourished since he left. Work that out.  

Heh I'd say you might be the one overreacting. We just don't see anything special about this 100m signing the club made. I think we are all aware that he's 21, and hope he will improve, but our roster is filled with "but he's only..." and it shows on the pitch. Rice has made key contributions for Arsenal, while Caicedo not so much just yet. Rice is older and more experienced, so there is that.

Now regarding stats, take Rodri again, just as an example: reckon his defensive stats at City would look pretty average compared to Caicedo at Brighton. It's the vastly different team setup. Possession teams would for instance rely on, yes, possession as a form of defending, not a hard tackling DM. (CIty also relies on every player to regain the football).

Just my 2cps on stats in general. I agree with @Magic Lamps there that football is a bit of an oddball of a game.

Edited January 1 by robsblubot

[Thor 2,394]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

Yeah that's a difficult point to get across around here. Different circumstances w/ vastly different variables diminish the value of such stats.

Heh I'd say you might be the one overreacting. We just don't see anything special about this 100m signing the club made. I think we are all aware that he's 21, and hope he will improve, but our roster is filled with "but he's only..." and it shows on the pitch. Rice has made key contributions for Arsenal, while Caicedo not so much just yet. Rice is older and more experienced, so there is that.

Now regarding stats, take Rodri again, just as an example: reckon his defensive stats at City would look pretty average compared to Caicedo at Brighton. It's the vastly different team setup. Possession teams would for instance rely on, yes, possession as a form of defending, not a hard tackling DM. (CIty also relies on every player to regain the football).

Just my 2cps on stats in general. I agree with @Magic Lamps there that football is a bit of an oddball of a game.

1. Different circumstances? Yeah - he left a better Brighton team and stepped into a worse and more unsettled Chelsea squad. 

2. I'm overreacting? Which bit? I said he is 21, young and to give him time. You and Lamps think its the end of the world, he is at his level, it won't be any better next season - because thats how football works clearly. Arsenal clearly let their young players grow and now have a robust system and are doing far better. But yeah - we're ruined forever because our 21 year olds won't get any better. 

3. Rice is more experienced? Okay. Give me something tangible. Key contributions? Yes - he went to a better team, that is more settled and could slot in. If Rice was that valuable - Arsenal would be better than last year, and WHU would be worse... The opposite has happened. We on the other hand this year - have undoubtably been better with Caceido in the team. No conjecture about that - it is blatant, stone cold fact. 

4. I never said he was as good as Rodri. Never brought him up. Also - you're wrong considering Brighton was third in possession the year Caceido put up his amazing defensive stats lol... 

 

You're the one overreacting. Again - acting as if he isn't a good player and wasn't at Brighton. Just not the case.  Also pretending things won't get better next year... Youngest team in the league with a complete overhaul of our team that would need time to gel. All on top of injuries to key, key players. 

[robsblubot 3,508]

45 minutes ago, Thor said:

1. Different circumstances? Yeah - he left a better Brighton team and stepped into a worse and more unsettled Chelsea squad. 

2. I'm overreacting? Which bit? I said he is 21, young and to give him time. You and Lamps think its the end of the world, he is at his level, it won't be any better next season - because thats how football works clearly. Arsenal clearly let their young players grow and now have a robust system and are doing far better. But yeah - we're ruined forever because our 21 year olds won't get any better. 

3. Rice is more experienced? Okay. Give me something tangible. Key contributions? Yes - he went to a better team, that is more settled and could slot in. If Rice was that valuable - Arsenal would be better than last year, and WHU would be worse... The opposite has happened. We on the other hand this year - have undoubtably been better with Caceido in the team. No conjecture about that - it is blatant, stone cold fact. 

4. I never said he was as good as Rodri. Never brought him up. Also - you're wrong considering Brighton was third in possession the year Caceido put up his amazing defensive stats lol... 

 

You're the one overreacting. Again - acting as if he isn't a good player and wasn't at Brighton. Just not the case.  Also pretending things won't get better next year... Youngest team in the league with a complete overhaul of our team that would need time to gel. All on top of injuries to key, key players. 

1. you are talking about perceived quality and I'm talking about team setup, strategy, and team/player characteristics. BTW, what's this love for Brighton?! Last time I checked they are sitting mid table same as us. They play like shit same as us, but we used to play better a couple of years back, while they never did. The difference is that if our owners get their shit together--just a bit--we will be top6 next season, and Brighton will be sitting mid table again, which is where they belong.

2. you were the one complaining to "you all" above, not me. I just don't drool over any kid who puts on a Chelsea shirt, albeit I admit they usually do look better wearing Chelsea's colors.

3. you wrote, "he went to a better team, that is more settled and could slot in" about RIce, and then you wrote "We on the other hand this year - have undoubtably been better with Caceido in the team. No conjecture about that - it is blatant, stone cold fact." about Caicedo. Personally I prefer to embrace the former (it's really either one) and say there are too many variables. So, no "fact" just an opinion, which is what we do here for: RIce is the better player right now; he's more skillful and decisive.

4. Can't speak for anyone, but I used Rodri as an *example* of a player with very different characteristics in a very different team setup, which would skew defensive stats--nothing else. The only point here was about cherry picking stats don't always work in football. Other sports tend to be more easily represented in numbers, IMO. Another example, I'd be saying Jackson is shit and should be sold ASAP by his xG alone, but even that I don't fully trust.

In short, I don't really feel strongly about Caicedo atm. I personally don't value a whole lot a midfielder of his characteristics at a big club. I (personally) prefer to always go for the skillful side of the game, but that's me. I also don't really care he's 21. He's starting every game for Chelsea FC, so he should play the part. I do hope and expect him to improve over time, but (fodder for a diff thread) I'm afraid he will remain underdeveloped unless we improve as a club; as in get to a competitive state to help players like Caicedo reach their potential, whichever that may be.

[MoroccanBlue 5,311]

Bissouma too looked pretty lost his first season outside of Brighton but is now one of Spurs' better players. Caicedo hasn't been great but the OTT criticism I just roll my eyes at. It's the same energy from when Lampard was playing a Kante/Mount/Barkley midfield three with Kante as the #6. 

I think our midfield is dysfunctional because it has to make up for certain functionality issues. Colwill at LB and wingers that need a lot of coaching. 

[bluesman2610 1,341]

I think the other issue is people seem to want him to be like Kante for whatever reason, but Kante was one of a kind. I don't think we'll see another like him for a very long time. I will say this Moises is a better passer of the ball and he's far more technically gifted. He will come good I have faith but it is good to have Lavia there as well as I feel gives him less pressure.

[YorkshireBlue 3,122]

On 31/12/2023 at 22:58, robsblubot said:

And you don't? They let go of all senior players all at once. Signed a bunch of kids and many of us, myself included, predicted this most obvious outcome of midtable struggles. Here's another, without addressing the weaknesses of the team (w/ senior players not U23), next season won't be any different regardless of manager or whatnot.

Regarding your initial point, Cucurella also looked pretty good at Brighton. And once again, I think Caicedo is a good player and I don't even think having a pure DM is needed these days. It really depends on your team setup. We won CL with passers and B2B players. I REALLY do not care what he did for Brighton. His career started now, if he is to fulfill his potential that is. Right now, he's not all that great tbh -- call the way I see it.

Money matters because there are limits and because it sets precedents. For all the money spent, our midfield is pretty average without Enzo, or when Enzo struggles. Maybe Lavia will help, if folks here are right about him, but I think it's pretty much the same as with Caicedo: this is also Lavia's big test.

We was mid table with the senior players aswell don't forget that, only difference now is the players are on half the money and half the age, they all can still greatly improve, I go back to my previous point, we are mid table in "the best and hardest league in the world" with young inexperienced talent, these young an inexperienced players, keep Liverpool man city and arsenal at bay! Yes we struggle against teams that sit with 11 behind the ball, experience will over come this, but all in all what we have do so far isn't as bad as some like to make out, the more they play and gel together and gather that experience as individuals and as a team, we will see huge improvements 

[robsblubot 3,508]

2 hours ago, YorkshireBlue said:

We was mid table with the senior players aswell don't forget that, only difference now is the players are on half the money and half the age, they all can still greatly improve, I go back to my previous point, we are mid table in "the best and hardest league in the world" with young inexperienced talent, these young an inexperienced players, keep Liverpool man city and arsenal at bay! Yes we struggle against teams that sit with 11 behind the ball, experience will over come this, but all in all what we have do so far isn't as bad as some like to make out, the more they play and gel together and gather that experience as individuals and as a team, we will see huge improvements 

And yet they may not improve enough (considering the requirements we have)... we just don't know. I don't think the disarray we had was only down to players. it was a relatively young squad too. It isn't that that squad was old, but rather that this squad is way too young.

I think the biggest criticism one can make is that there was no need to make such a drastic change all at once. We could've done what we are doing and at the same time keep some foundation, or sign some foundation. It was just so weird to go full feeder club at this level, but it is what it is I guess.

Edited January 2 by robsblubot

[nyikolajevics 2,587]

3 hours ago, bluesman2610 said:

I think the other issue is people seem to want him to be like Kante for whatever reason, but Kante was one of a kind. I don't think we'll see another like him for a very long time. I will say this Moises is a better passer of the ball and he's far more technically gifted. He will come good I have faith but it is good to have Lavia there as well as I feel gives him less pressure.

Lavia must have taken tons of pressure from Caicedo’s shoulders with being available for like 25 minutes in the past half year 😂

 

Agree though. Caicedo is doing ok and can improve. But looking at his 120 million price tag, fans were/are expecting Saviour Jesus Christ enters Stamford Bridge in #25 jersey and wins us all games. Same as Enzo..

 

 

[robsblubot 3,508]

17 minutes ago, nyikolajevics said:

Lavia must have taken tons of pressure from Caicedo’s shoulders with being available for like 25 minutes in the past half year 😂

 

Agree though. Caicedo is doing ok and can improve. But looking at his 120 million price tag, fans were/are expecting Saviour Jesus Christ enters Stamford Bridge in #25 jersey and wins us all games. Same as Enzo..

 

 

indeed.

What scares me tho is that our hopes lie on a 19yo who was playing Championship just a moment ago. Feels like way too much pressure on these very young players.

[bluesman2610 1,341]

24 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

indeed.

What scares me tho is that our hopes lie on a 19yo who was playing Championship just a moment ago. Feels like way too much pressure on these very young players.

Lavia came up in the City system we have seen what that has already done for us so far this season.

[robsblubot 3,508]

38 minutes ago, bluesman2610 said:

Lavia came up in the City system we have seen what that has already done for us so far this season.

ah I did not know that. That's indeed reassuring... given Palmer. 👍

I just don't expect him to set the PL on fire just yet.

[lucio 5,418]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

indeed.

What scares me tho is that our hopes lie on a 19yo who was playing Championship just a moment ago. Feels like way too much pressure on these very young players.

He was playing in the PL with Southampton last year