25. Moisés Caicedo

[Blue Armour 4,312]

1 minute ago, lucio said:

Overpriced , slower Ramires 

Ramires could score double figures in a season.

[Vesper 29,019]

Pool main paper is mocking us

 

 

[DH1988 1,304]

I missed today as I had plans I couldn't move but Moises has been good to great in previous games since his less than sparkling debut, steady increase in performance, again I unfortunately (fortunately?) did not get to see the game today, so I can't comment there but I've been very impressed with his play. World class? No.

[OneMoSalah 8,785]

Needs to do more. Has shown good moments also and whilst the price tags always going to be there, for me he never was and may never be worth the money we paid.

I think the Kante comparisons have to stop also, nowhere near the level and may never be.

[MoroccanBlue 5,318]

On 28/10/2023 at 12:01, Vytis33 said:

Not in any way blaming this kid for today but in what world is he a Kante replacement?  Ball winning/defensively not on the same planet as NG.  And almost refuses to make an offensive turn or pass.  
 

Pulling for him hope he grows into the side.  Especially for that price tag 

That is just an outright lie. He's the only one yesterday that played through channels to find Palmer. I actually applaud his willingness to play through those channels constantly. Even under immense pressure. 

Comparing him to Kante was daft then and is still daft now. There is only one Kante. At best Caicedo can provide the same level of influence as pre-injury Essien. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by MoroccanBlue

[King Kante 1,500]

2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

That is just an outright lie. He's the only one yesterday that played through channels to find Palmer. I actually applaud his willingness to play through those channels constantly. Even under immense pressure. 

Comparing him to Kante was daft then and is still daft now. There is only one Kante. At best Caicedo can provide the same level of influence as pre-injury Essien. 

That isn't going to happen. Essien was an absolute specimen of an athlete. His ability to dominate opposition was due to his ability to out fight, out muscle and out run everyone on the pitch. On top of that he could absolutely leather the ball in a way Reece is only able to get near to. 

If you mean, play like Essien minus all of the above, then maybe, as Caicedo isn't anywhere near the physical specimen Essien was.

Caicedo's overall play is much more akin to players like Petit, Mikel and Jorginho. In that he is a pretty safe pair of hands in keeping possession as be isn't loose with his passing and can take a ball and move it on in tight situations and find a player. At best he becomes a new Maka if he can start breaking the lines with his forward passing by hitting it flat with pace and improves his vision to see the onward pass as soon as the advanced player looses his man. 

[robsblubot 3,529]

2 hours ago, King Kante said:

That isn't going to happen. Essien was an absolute specimen of an athlete. His ability to dominate opposition was due to his ability to out fight, out muscle and out run everyone on the pitch. On top of that he could absolutely leather the ball in a way Reece is only able to get near to. 

If you mean, play like Essien minus all of the above, then maybe, as Caicedo isn't anywhere near the physical specimen Essien was.

Caicedo's overall play is much more akin to players like Petit, Mikel and Jorginho. In that he is a pretty safe pair of hands in keeping possession as be isn't loose with his passing and can take a ball and move it on in tight situations and find a player. At best he becomes a new Maka if he can start breaking the lines with his forward passing by hitting it flat with pace and improves his vision to see the onward pass as soon as the advanced player looses his man. 

I agree with you, but reckon Essien wouldn't be what he was without the latter, the skill; he was one of the most skillful CM/DMs I've seen.

While I agree that Caicedo is limited at this moment, I expect him to much surpass the likes of Mikel (likely Jorgi too). Mikel was one of the worst mids I've seen play the game: Wasn't very quick, so to defend at all he forced the team into a very low backline; he could not shoot to save his life, and had abysmal passing range, but stats would show he completed 1000 short sideway passes a game. 🤷‍♂️

On on hand I say that it's too soon to pass judgment on Caicedo. On the other, I don't really understand how someone expects him to move from Brighton to Chelsea at the age of 21 and dominate the midfield... makes no sense.

[Blue Armour 4,312]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

I agree with you, but reckon Essien wouldn't be what he was without the latter, the skill; he was one of the most skillful CM/DMs I've seen.

While I agree that Caicedo is limited at this moment, I expect him to much surpass the likes of Mikel (likely Jorgi too). Mikel was one of the worst mids I've seen play the game: Wasn't very quick, so to defend at all he forced the team into a very low backline; he could not shoot to save his life, and had abysmal passing range, but stats would show he completed 1000 short sideway passes a game. 🤷‍♂️

On on hand I say that it's too soon to pass judgment on Caicedo. On the other, I don't really understand how someone expects him to move from Brighton to Chelsea at the age of 21 and dominate the midfield... makes no sense.

Agreed. Essien is more skillful on the ball than both Kante and Makelele. Even a decent aerial threat. Also a great passer of the ball, long and short. Also had great shooting range.

Even played RB for us in the Champions league final in 2008.

I would in fact take prime Essien over Makelele & Kante.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Blue Armour

[MoroccanBlue 5,318]

11 hours ago, King Kante said:

That isn't going to happen. Essien was an absolute specimen of an athlete. His ability to dominate opposition was due to his ability to out fight, out muscle and out run everyone on the pitch. On top of that he could absolutely leather the ball in a way Reece is only able to get near to. 

If you mean, play like Essien minus all of the above, then maybe, as Caicedo isn't anywhere near the physical specimen Essien was.

Caicedo's overall play is much more akin to players like Petit, Mikel and Jorginho. In that he is a pretty safe pair of hands in keeping possession as be isn't loose with his passing and can take a ball and move it on in tight situations and find a player. At best he becomes a new Maka if he can start breaking the lines with his forward passing by hitting it flat with pace and improves his vision to see the onward pass as soon as the advanced player looses his man. 

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

[robsblubot 3,529]

3 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

While I agree with you that he's currently a good player, I'd suggest that his Brighton days no longer matter. He's nowhere near his Brighton days, which happens 99% of the time (Kante being the exception I can think of). Brighton isn't Chelsea, even if they play in the same league--the jump is a challenge for any player esp a 21yo.

Both Kova, and esp Kante, played very direct. Kante in particular, was phenomenal in regaining possession and making forward runs running past players in the same play. Caicedo does not quite do that and I'm not sure it's characteristics, or just that he's adapting/developing.

He does pass well, and not only sideway passes, but he does do a little too much of that for me. It's difficult to know how much is instruction from the manager, to keep possession, or just him. Too soon to have a full picture about Caicedo--early days and the team itself is fairly inconsistent atm.

[MoroccanBlue 5,318]

29 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

While I agree with you that he's currently a good player, I'd suggest that his Brighton days no longer matter. He's nowhere near his Brighton days, which happens 99% of the time (Kante being the exception I can think of). Brighton isn't Chelsea, even if they play in the same league--the jump is a challenge for any player esp a 21yo.

Both Kova, and esp Kante, played very direct. Kante in particular, was phenomenal in regaining possession and making forward runs running past players in the same play. Caicedo does not quite do that and I'm not sure it's characteristics, or just that he's adapting/developing.

He does pass well, and not only sideway passes, but he does do a little too much of that for me. It's difficult to know how much is instruction from the manager, to keep possession, or just him. Too soon to have a full picture about Caicedo--early days and the team itself is fairly inconsistent atm.

You need to stop using Kante as a reference point. Since day one I disagreed with the comparisons. 

[robsblubot 3,529]

31 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

You need to stop using Kante as a reference point. Since day one I disagreed with the comparisons. 

Fair enough! 👍

They are not that similar in characteristics.

I was not necessarily comparing him to Kante, but was citing one quality our team used to have in abundance, but now we depend on Conor making runs...

Edited October 30, 2023 by robsblubot

[ZAPHOD2319 4,518]

 

[King Kante 1,500]

On 30/10/2023 at 12:26, MoroccanBlue said:

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

I was saying he was overrated before we signed him. So not sure about the one game reference. 

First part yes, second part, no. He isn't anywhere near technical enough to dominate/control midfield. He is essentially a ball chaser who can intercept at a high level. It was seen again today. He meshes well with Enzo, as he does the donkey work, but as soon as Enzo goes off, the midfield cannot transition the ball quickly and give away too many turnovers. This is also why Brighton barely played him in his favoured position in the second half of last season and instead moved him.about to positions of needs in terms of coverage. 

I am not saying the kid is awful, just that he has a lot of average qualities and a few outstanding qualities. Maybe he is young enough to improve but I just don't see the level of technical ability and passing range you're describing. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by King Kante

[OhForAGreavsie 5,898]

On 06/11/2023 at 23:41, King Kante said:

I was saying he was overrated before we signed him. So not sure about the one game reference. 

First part yes, second part, no. He isn't anywhere near technical enough to dominate/control midfield. He is essentially a ball chaser who can intercept at a high level. It was seen again today. He meshes well with Enzo, as he does the donkey work, but as soon as Enzo goes off, the midfield cannot transition the ball quickly and give away too many turnovers. This is also why Brighton barely played him in his favoured position in the second half of last season and instead moved him.about to positions of needs in terms of coverage. 

I am not saying the kid is awful, just that he has a lot of average qualities and a few outstanding qualities. Maybe he is young enough to improve but I just don't see the level of technical ability and passing range you're describing. 

I was not saying that he was overrated before he joined because I didn't watch him enough to have an opinion. Since he got here the doubts have been creeping in however. I'm looking forward to Poch having Lavia as an option then we'll see what the competition can do to keep both players at their best level. It would be nice if those two can keep that slot in the team under control while we sharpen the squad in other areas, before we have to come back and think if we need to look at DM again.

[Vesper 29,019]

 

[Beigl 1,387]

Lets be honest, he has been a very average signing so far. I hoped/ thought he would provide defensive cover, while also supporting Enzo and other more offensive players with actions of substance. So far, he clearly underachieved and I hope Lavia is a useful addition as I regard him quite highly given his good technique, which Caicedo and Gallagher lack. 

[TheHulk 1,884]

2 hours ago, Beigl said:

Lets be honest, he has been a very average signing so far. I hoped/ thought he would provide defensive cover, while also supporting Enzo and other more offensive players with actions of substance. So far, he clearly underachieved and I hope Lavia is a useful addition as I regard him quite highly given his good technique, which Caicedo and Gallagher lack. 

As some others mentioned think the price tag is hanging on him, he looks hesitant many times. Think he gonna look better in a few months.