Mikel John Obi

[Shaan 263]

It really baffles me when people say even after watching chelsea all this years that mikel is a amazing defensive midfielder......

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Average league position of our opposition when Mikel started: 10.3

Average league position of our oppostion when Mikel did not start: 11.5

Not much difference there.

Considering the fact that we dropped 5 points vs QPR(final position 20), 2 points vs Reading (promoted team n final position 19), 3 points vs Newcastle (final position 16), 5 points vs Southampton(newly promoted, final position 14), 3 points vs West Ham (promoted team n final position 10), I am not sure how you can call games against bottom teams of PL as "really easy games".

You're using the average goals conceded stats from all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only. It is a clear example of how stats can be manipulated to say almost anything you want.

Here, I can spin it in Mikel's way too:

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has played is 1 (23 goals in 22 games)

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has not played is also 1 (16 goals in 16 games)

And since the average league position of the opponent when Mikel has started is higher than when he has not, therefore the only possible conclusion by your logic is that the team did better with Mikel than without.

Aren't stats a fun thing?

[IliyaDamyanov 43]

He is an average player and don't have place in our club !! We lost many points because of him , absolutely overrated player...sell him !!

[bleed_blue 136]

You're using the average goals conceded stats from all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only. It is a clear example of how stats can be manipulated to say almost anything you want.

Here, I can spin it in Mikel's way too:

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has played is 1 (23 goals in 22 games)

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has not played is also 1 (16 goals in 16 games)

And since the average league position of the opponent when Mikel has started is higher than when he has not, therefore the only possible conclusion by your logic is that the team did better with Mikel than without.

Aren't stats a fun thing?

Ofcourse you can say that. But here is the catch.

You are including a game where mikel came on in injury time after stipulated 90 mins vs WBA

You are including a game where mikel came on for 4 minutes vs WHU

and another 3-0 win over fulham where Mikel came on for the last 14 minutes.

But hey, Its choulo19, one can expect such brainfarts from the man time to time.

If you confine the discussion only to PL.

19 starts for mikel, 9 wins, 5 draws n 5 defeats. 31 goals scored, 23 goals conceded, average league position of opponents: 10.3

in the other 19 games, 13 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats. 44 goals scored, 16 conceded, average league position of opponetns: 11.5

Yes, he's useless defensively which is why he's made 277 appearances for Chelsea under what, 8 different managers playing a variety of different systems? You don't like him, fine, but to call him useless defensively is patently absurd.

If you are quoting my post, atleast bother to read it in its entirety. I did say that there was one style that suited his defensive abilities. Unfortunately we don't play that way anymore and we have players who are capable of much more.

Regarding that 277 appearances in 8 seasons, John O'shea made 393 appearances in 10 seasons at ManU. For more you can read previous pages on this thread, this managers argument has been tackled before.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Ofcourse you can say that. But here is the catch.

You are including a game where mikel came on in injury time after stipulated 90 mins vs WBA

You are including a game where mikel came on for 4 minutes vs WHU

and another 3-0 win over fulham where Mikel came on for the last 14 minutes.

But hey, Its choulo19, one can expect such brainfarts from the man time to time.

If you confine the discussion only to PL.

19 starts for mikel, 9 wins, 5 draws n 5 defeats. 31 goals scored, 23 goals conceded, average league position of opponents: 10.3

in the other 19 games, 13 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats. 44 goals scored, 16 conceded, average league position of opponetns: 11.5

Yes the stat I posted is manipulated to make Mikel look good. That was actually my whole point of the post. Just like your stat is manipulated to make him look bad by using the average goals conceded in all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only.

And just like my stat does not tell the whole story because it includes games where Mikel came on late and did't have a big effect, your stat above does not tell the whole story either because it includes for example matches where refereeing decisions decided the out come of the game like the United at home and Liverpool away, and games where the manager completely messed up his tactics and cost us the game like the Westham and City away games. In all those games Mikle is little to blame for the result or any of the goals conceded.

So again, all stats can be manipulated to almost anything you want.

[bleed_blue 136]

Yes the stat I posted is manipulated to make Mikel look good. That was actually my whole point of the post. Just like your stat is manipulated to make him look bad by using the average goals conceded in all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only.

And just like my stat does not tell the whole story because it includes games where Mikel came on late and did't have a big effect, your stat above does not tell the whole story either because it includes for example matches where refereeing decisions decided the out come of the game like the United at home and Liverpool away, and games where the manager completely messed up his tactics and cost us the game like the Westham and City away games. In all those games Mikle is little to blame for the result or any of the goals conceded.

So again, all stats can be manipulated to almost anything you want.

Lolwot?

So the refreeing decisions only effect us negatively when Mikel starts?

the manager's tactics went wrong only when Mikel started?

This is a new low, even for you.

Your stats were manipulated does not mean all are. The stats I posted, I was being lenient towards Mikel. Here is some more detailed info.

Of those 19 games that Mikel started, he was substitued out 8 times. Want to know what happened in those 8 games?

1. We were losing 2-1 to Reading when Mikel was on the field. He was subbed out and then we won the game 4-2

2. We were drawing 0-0 vs Stoke at home. Mikel was subbed out and we won the match 1-0.

Mikel getting subbed in did not change any results but him getting subbed out meant we won 2 more games which we were losing/drawing while he was on the field.

So that 19 starts, 9 wins, 5 draws and 5 defeats would have been 19 starts, 7 wins, 6 draws and 6 defeats.

Next time do some background work before hitting that post button.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Lolwot?

So the refreeing decisions only effect us negatively when Mikel starts?

the manager's tactics went wrong only when Mikel started?

This is a new low, even for you.

Your stats were manipulated does not mean all are. Come up with some valid excuse. You don't have to prove that you are an idiot everytime you hit that POST button.

Yes the events in those games were extraordinary because it rarely happens that a refs send off one of your players instead of the other teams and allows an offside goal against you in the same game. And no player bites an opponent and stays on the pitch and scores in the 98th minutes. And that Westham game was the WORST tactical mistake Rafa did with us. We were completely dominating game (with Mikel in midfield) and his decision to sit back when our CBs could not handle the long balls was just plain stupid.

So yes, your stat does not tell the whole story.

And I've ignored your personal insults till now, but don't push it.

[bleed_blue 136]

Yes the events in those games were extraordinary because it rarely happens that a refs send off one of your players instead of the other teams and allows an offside goal against you in the same game. And no player bites an opponent and stays on the pitch and scores in the 98th minutes. And that Westham game was the WORST tactical mistake Rafa did with us. We were completely dominating game (with Mikel in midfield) and his decision to sit back when our CBs could not handle the long balls was just plain stupid.

So yes, your stat does not tell the whole story.

And I've ignored your personal insults till now, but don't push it.

So, you are saying that the entire Universe conspires against Mikel.

Anything that can go wrong does go wrong and Mikel is just a poor victim in all this huge conspiracy.

Maybe Chelsea are better off without such an unlucky player on the field.

PS: Not that I believe in any such delusion that you come up with, I am just trying to understand this deep rooted victimhood mentality.

[bleed_blue 136]

Sorry double post.

[madalista 30]

can't you guys just agree to disagree on this and move on. At the end of the day mikel is still in the squad why don't we wait and see how important for the team he will be during the course of the season. Simples.

Sorry double post.

[Joe Cool 388]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[meetdoscar 335]

Shit player.....getting the vibe now

[CHOULO19 24,332]

So, you are saying that the entire Universe conspires against Mikel.

Anything that can go wrong does go wrong and Mikel is just a poor victim in all this huge conspiracy.

Maybe Chelsea are better off without such an unlucky player on the field.

PS: Not that I believe in any such delusion that you come up with, I am just trying to understand this deep rooted victimhood mentality.

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

[bleed_blue 136]

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

The countless other factors which only effect us negatively when Mikel plays. This universe I tell thee. So unfair

[robsblubot 3,502]

No I'm saying that stats like Average goals conceded with and without a player have very little significance because there are countless other variables involved besides the player's presence like the opposition, our own lineup, the tactics of both teams and, to a great extent, luck as well.

Same as any other stats including the ones you point to: it's all relative to opponents tactics as well. When the opponent considers mikel not an offensive threat, and rightfully so, they don't pressure him and then he has more freedom with his passing than other players.

Personally, I pay more attention to the team numbers than the indidual's; it's a team sport after all. Key word his is average.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The countless other factors which only effect us negatively when Mikel plays. This universe I tell thee. So unfair

No, but logic implies that if there are many variables, you can't contribute the change in result to just one. That's basically the root of all scientific methodology and hence all human knowledge. Not sure you can change that for your convenience.

Same as any other stats including the ones you point to: it's all relative to opponents tactics as well. When the opponent considers mikel not an offensive threat, and rightfully so, they don't pressure him and then he has more freedom with his passing than other players.

Personally, I pay more attention to the team numbers than the indidual's; it's a team sport after all. Key word his is average.

You can of course make that claim because of course all football stats are flawed, but:

1) While both will inevitably be flawed, trying to infer conclusions about a player from a team stat is much more unreliable than inferring conclusions from individual stats because there are much more variables.

2) Mikel is constantly one our players under the most pressure because, first our pivot was always outnumbered in midfield last season, and second because Mikel is often trusted most by his teammates in tight spots because of his ball retention skills.

[robsblubot 3,502]

No, but logic implies that if there are many variables, you can't contribute the change in result to just one. That's basically the root of all scientific methodology and hence all human knowledge. Not sure you can change that for your convenience.

You can of course make that claim because of course all football stats are flawed, but:

1) While both will inevitably be flawed, trying to infer conclusions about a player from a team stat is much more unreliable than inferring conclusions from individual stats because there are much more variables.

2) Mikel is constantly one our players under the most pressure because, first our pivot was always outnumbered in midfield last season, and second because Mikel is often trusted most by his teammates in tight spots because of his ball retention skills.

#1) obviously we have different preferences, but at the end of the day what matters is the team. Fact is that our pivot was not strong enough last season, and Mikel was part of that as was Lampard and Ramires. Winning ratio is the only stat that matters.

#2) I have a real hard time with that statement. Most of Mikel supporters claim his atrocious attacking stats are due to him sitting very deep, and now you say he's constantly under pressure...

BTW, I reckon we just value certain attributes differently: you praise his ball retention skills and I think it's one of the most overrated abilities. There are tons of mediocre players (mean average) who can hold and protect the ball well. Gareth Barry is a prime example of a player who does little else. Scott Parker is another one. These guys actually do ok in England but get destroyed in Europe.

[bleed_blue 136]

#1) obviously we have different preferences, but at the end of the day what matters is the team. Fact is that our pivot was not strong enough last season, and Mikel was part of that as was Lampard and Ramires. Winning ratio is the only stat that matters.

#2) I have a real hard time with that statement. Most of Mikel supporters claim his atrocious attacking stats are due to him sitting very deep, and now you say he's constantly under pressure...

Choulo19 is making stuff up. His lies have been exposed in almost every thread. He once claimed that oscar cannot tackle. When slapped with actual numbers on his face, he refused to post again.