Mikel John Obi

[bleed_blue 136]

Chelsea had, let's say, 10-12 really difficult games last season. (The top 4 competitors and Juventus home and away, Shakhtar away, and maybe you could call games like Everton or Liverppol away there as well). We played around 7 of those matches in the first 21 games. We played about 5 more in the next 47 games. (This is why "Benitez' success" drives me crazy. The schedule he had overall was ridiculously easy.) Chelsea had a large number of really easy games last season (around 25 games against teams that were bottom of the Premier League or lower caliber). Mikel started one game in the Carling Cup and it was against ManU. He started two games in the FA Cup and they were against ManU and Man City. He started 4 games in the UCL and they were the Juventus and Shakhtar starts. He started 19 games in the league and 12 of them were against top-10 teams. Of the 8 easiest games against Championship and First division sides, and Nordjaelland, Mikel started none of them (Moses, on the other hand, started 6 of them). .We gave up more goals when Mikel started because Mikel started a huge percentage of his games against top teams and none of his games against the worst teams so yes, it's harder to hold Juventus, Arsenal and ManU down than it is to hold Brentford, Leeds, and Sparta Prague.

Average league position of our opposition when Mikel started: 10.3

Average league position of our oppostion when Mikel did not start: 11.5

Not much difference there.

Considering the fact that we dropped 5 points vs QPR(final position 20), 2 points vs Reading (promoted team n final position 19), 3 points vs Newcastle (final position 16), 5 points vs Southampton(newly promoted, final position 14), 3 points vs West Ham (promoted team n final position 10), I am not sure how you can call games against bottom teams of PL as "really easy games".

[CHOULO19 24,332]

It would seem that of the returning confederations cup players,Mikel is the one who has not played

I realize you're basically not susceptible to reality, but denying that Mikel played is too much even for you!

[Phil Driver 503]

Ah I see he came on in the 66th minute and we were awful ,only watched the first half .

You are soon going to have to face reality here soon and in England we spell realise with an " s " . Have you ever seen Mikel live? he looks just as slow as on the box. The remaining points which you choose to ignore will still be proven right given time.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Average league position of our opposition when Mikel started: 10.3

Average league position of our oppostion when Mikel did not start: 11.5

Not much difference there.

Considering the fact that we dropped 5 points vs QPR(final position 20), 2 points vs Reading (promoted team n final position 19), 3 points vs Newcastle (final position 16), 5 points vs Southampton(newly promoted, final position 14), 3 points vs West Ham (promoted team n final position 10), I am not sure how you can call games against bottom teams of PL as "really easy games".

Because they are. We drew Brentford and we drew Juventus but they were not the same quality game. Was your previous stat just about Premier League totals? No, because Mikel's average goals against in Premier League starts was 1.2.Chelsea's average overall was 0.98. When you consider the higher caliber of opponent as well as the difference in style when Mikel was starting (under Benitez, we didn't play games like we did with the 4-2 Spurs win or the 3-2 ManU loss.), it's perfectly in line. There are plenty of legitimate complaints about Mikel. He doesn't offer much going forward, he moves the ball too slowly for our system, etc...but to even try to suggest that Mikel is costing the team a goal or half a goal a game is borderline insane. The worst defensive player in football doesn't do that and even Mikel's detractors (unless they are blind) know that he's a quality defensive player. His weaknesses are elsewhere.

[Phil Driver 503]

Wrong ,Makelele was a quality defensive midfielder ,Mikel is not in the same league ,Makelele sensed danger and won the ball as high up the pitch as possible and then used it wisely and quickly. Mikel is a very poor defensive midfielder he is too slow both in mind and body . Please do not waste the word "quality".

[bleed_blue 136]

Because they are. We drew Brentford and we drew Juventus but they were not the same quality game. Was your previous stat just about Premier League totals? No, because Mikel's average goals against in Premier League starts was 1.2.Chelsea's average overall was 0.98. When you consider the higher caliber of opponent as well as the difference in style when Mikel was starting (under Benitez, we didn't play games like we did with the 4-2 Spurs win or the 3-2 ManU loss.), it's perfectly in line. There are plenty of legitimate complaints about Mikel. He doesn't offer much going forward, he moves the ball too slowly for our system, etc...but to even try to suggest that Mikel is costing the team a goal or half a goal a game is borderline insane. The worst defensive player in football doesn't do that and even Mikel's detractors (unless they are blind) know that he's a quality defensive player. His weaknesses are elsewhere.

The only defensive style that suits mikel is when we defend with 10 men behind the ball. Otherwise he is useless defensively. Saying otherwise aint gonna change the reality.

If you are braindead, not sure calling others as blind is a good idea.

And that goals per game in pl was 1.21 with mikel n 0.81 without mikel. Not to mention our superior goal scoring, match winning performances when he did not play in PL. 1.68 points per game in pl with mikel, 2.26 points per game without mikel in pl.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The only defensive style that suits mikel is when we defend with 10 men behind the balls. Otherwise he is useless defensively. Saying otherwise aint gonna change the reality.

If you are braindead, not sure calling others as blind is a good idea.

Yes, he's useless defensively which is why he's made 277 appearances for Chelsea under what, 8 different managers playing a variety of different systems? You don't like him, fine, but to call him useless defensively is patently absurd.

[Phil Driver 503]

The mistake we made as a club was to try and turn a failing (expensive) attacking midfielder into a defensive one ,it has not worked it is a specialist position and you either have those skills or you do not , Makelele was the master of that role and trying to turn a failed attacking midfielder into a defensive one was doomed to failure ,

Chalobah already looks more of a natural in that role to me .

[Shaan 263]

It really baffles me when people say even after watching chelsea all this years that mikel is a amazing defensive midfielder......

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Average league position of our opposition when Mikel started: 10.3

Average league position of our oppostion when Mikel did not start: 11.5

Not much difference there.

Considering the fact that we dropped 5 points vs QPR(final position 20), 2 points vs Reading (promoted team n final position 19), 3 points vs Newcastle (final position 16), 5 points vs Southampton(newly promoted, final position 14), 3 points vs West Ham (promoted team n final position 10), I am not sure how you can call games against bottom teams of PL as "really easy games".

You're using the average goals conceded stats from all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only. It is a clear example of how stats can be manipulated to say almost anything you want.

Here, I can spin it in Mikel's way too:

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has played is 1 (23 goals in 22 games)

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has not played is also 1 (16 goals in 16 games)

And since the average league position of the opponent when Mikel has started is higher than when he has not, therefore the only possible conclusion by your logic is that the team did better with Mikel than without.

Aren't stats a fun thing?

[IliyaDamyanov 43]

He is an average player and don't have place in our club !! We lost many points because of him , absolutely overrated player...sell him !!

[bleed_blue 136]

You're using the average goals conceded stats from all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only. It is a clear example of how stats can be manipulated to say almost anything you want.

Here, I can spin it in Mikel's way too:

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has played is 1 (23 goals in 22 games)

Average goals conceded in the PL when Mikel has not played is also 1 (16 goals in 16 games)

And since the average league position of the opponent when Mikel has started is higher than when he has not, therefore the only possible conclusion by your logic is that the team did better with Mikel than without.

Aren't stats a fun thing?

Ofcourse you can say that. But here is the catch.

You are including a game where mikel came on in injury time after stipulated 90 mins vs WBA

You are including a game where mikel came on for 4 minutes vs WHU

and another 3-0 win over fulham where Mikel came on for the last 14 minutes.

But hey, Its choulo19, one can expect such brainfarts from the man time to time.

If you confine the discussion only to PL.

19 starts for mikel, 9 wins, 5 draws n 5 defeats. 31 goals scored, 23 goals conceded, average league position of opponents: 10.3

in the other 19 games, 13 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats. 44 goals scored, 16 conceded, average league position of opponetns: 11.5

Yes, he's useless defensively which is why he's made 277 appearances for Chelsea under what, 8 different managers playing a variety of different systems? You don't like him, fine, but to call him useless defensively is patently absurd.

If you are quoting my post, atleast bother to read it in its entirety. I did say that there was one style that suited his defensive abilities. Unfortunately we don't play that way anymore and we have players who are capable of much more.

Regarding that 277 appearances in 8 seasons, John O'shea made 393 appearances in 10 seasons at ManU. For more you can read previous pages on this thread, this managers argument has been tackled before.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Ofcourse you can say that. But here is the catch.

You are including a game where mikel came on in injury time after stipulated 90 mins vs WBA

You are including a game where mikel came on for 4 minutes vs WHU

and another 3-0 win over fulham where Mikel came on for the last 14 minutes.

But hey, Its choulo19, one can expect such brainfarts from the man time to time.

If you confine the discussion only to PL.

19 starts for mikel, 9 wins, 5 draws n 5 defeats. 31 goals scored, 23 goals conceded, average league position of opponents: 10.3

in the other 19 games, 13 wins, 4 draws and 2 defeats. 44 goals scored, 16 conceded, average league position of opponetns: 11.5

Yes the stat I posted is manipulated to make Mikel look good. That was actually my whole point of the post. Just like your stat is manipulated to make him look bad by using the average goals conceded in all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only.

And just like my stat does not tell the whole story because it includes games where Mikel came on late and did't have a big effect, your stat above does not tell the whole story either because it includes for example matches where refereeing decisions decided the out come of the game like the United at home and Liverpool away, and games where the manager completely messed up his tactics and cost us the game like the Westham and City away games. In all those games Mikle is little to blame for the result or any of the goals conceded.

So again, all stats can be manipulated to almost anything you want.

[bleed_blue 136]

Yes the stat I posted is manipulated to make Mikel look good. That was actually my whole point of the post. Just like your stat is manipulated to make him look bad by using the average goals conceded in all competitions with the average league position of opponents from the league only.

And just like my stat does not tell the whole story because it includes games where Mikel came on late and did't have a big effect, your stat above does not tell the whole story either because it includes for example matches where refereeing decisions decided the out come of the game like the United at home and Liverpool away, and games where the manager completely messed up his tactics and cost us the game like the Westham and City away games. In all those games Mikle is little to blame for the result or any of the goals conceded.

So again, all stats can be manipulated to almost anything you want.

Lolwot?

So the refreeing decisions only effect us negatively when Mikel starts?

the manager's tactics went wrong only when Mikel started?

This is a new low, even for you.

Your stats were manipulated does not mean all are. The stats I posted, I was being lenient towards Mikel. Here is some more detailed info.

Of those 19 games that Mikel started, he was substitued out 8 times. Want to know what happened in those 8 games?

1. We were losing 2-1 to Reading when Mikel was on the field. He was subbed out and then we won the game 4-2

2. We were drawing 0-0 vs Stoke at home. Mikel was subbed out and we won the match 1-0.

Mikel getting subbed in did not change any results but him getting subbed out meant we won 2 more games which we were losing/drawing while he was on the field.

So that 19 starts, 9 wins, 5 draws and 5 defeats would have been 19 starts, 7 wins, 6 draws and 6 defeats.

Next time do some background work before hitting that post button.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Lolwot?

So the refreeing decisions only effect us negatively when Mikel starts?

the manager's tactics went wrong only when Mikel started?

This is a new low, even for you.

Your stats were manipulated does not mean all are. Come up with some valid excuse. You don't have to prove that you are an idiot everytime you hit that POST button.

Yes the events in those games were extraordinary because it rarely happens that a refs send off one of your players instead of the other teams and allows an offside goal against you in the same game. And no player bites an opponent and stays on the pitch and scores in the 98th minutes. And that Westham game was the WORST tactical mistake Rafa did with us. We were completely dominating game (with Mikel in midfield) and his decision to sit back when our CBs could not handle the long balls was just plain stupid.

So yes, your stat does not tell the whole story.

And I've ignored your personal insults till now, but don't push it.

[bleed_blue 136]

Yes the events in those games were extraordinary because it rarely happens that a refs send off one of your players instead of the other teams and allows an offside goal against you in the same game. And no player bites an opponent and stays on the pitch and scores in the 98th minutes. And that Westham game was the WORST tactical mistake Rafa did with us. We were completely dominating game (with Mikel in midfield) and his decision to sit back when our CBs could not handle the long balls was just plain stupid.

So yes, your stat does not tell the whole story.

And I've ignored your personal insults till now, but don't push it.

So, you are saying that the entire Universe conspires against Mikel.

Anything that can go wrong does go wrong and Mikel is just a poor victim in all this huge conspiracy.

Maybe Chelsea are better off without such an unlucky player on the field.

PS: Not that I believe in any such delusion that you come up with, I am just trying to understand this deep rooted victimhood mentality.

[bleed_blue 136]

Sorry double post.

[madalista 30]

can't you guys just agree to disagree on this and move on. At the end of the day mikel is still in the squad why don't we wait and see how important for the team he will be during the course of the season. Simples.

Sorry double post.