Timo Werner

[Mário César 1,046]

we won 2012 ucl and we needed to rebuild the large part of the squad to won again the premierleague in 2015

[Thor 2,468]

13 hours ago, robsblubot said:

It was a suggestion that you are looking at things that *you* like in a team, which are *entertaining* to you, and have little to do with actually making a *TEAM* tick, which is what takes to win. You talk about players as if they were playing Tennis.

Chelsea is a very rich club. We are tested when we actually face teams who are at least as good, and have similar investment in football. Only then we see players who rise above and give you a competitive edge.

Mount and Werner (more Mount with key performances), have given us a competitive edge against the toughest opposition, and have helped the club to win the most important silverware there is. No, I'm not going to waste my time showing numbers and MotM accolades given the target audience here.
It was a very tough run against the best competition in the world at that moment, and they delivered the goods. Perhaps Mount's fitness struggles of late have something to do with what he did then? similar happened with Oscar after he ran himself into the ground to get us a PL.

I have far more respect for these players, winners, than players who have won jack shit.

You're also the same person who said our current squad isn't good enough last season - and here we are in 2nd place.

 

Funnily enough you also called out the majority of our now best performers in Caceido, Cucu and Jackson...

Both Mount and Werner are examples of - just because you put a cat in the oven, doesn't make it a biscuit. Otherwise, just because they won, doesn't make them winners. The sun can shine on a dogs ass one day and things line up. Most of us are over the moon for that CL win, but are also realistic that it was opportunistic and completely out of nowhere for the most part. 

In fact, despite our ageing squad I think most would tell you our 2nd CL win was far more unexpected. 

Your logic is just dead in the water. Take basketball for instance. Am I supposed to believe Chris Bosh is a better player than Charles Barkley, or respect him more because he won and Charles didn't? That logic is even worse when you bring it over to soccer, which has 11 players, and is more likely to be determined by one off events/moments in a game. 

[robsblubot 3,577]

10 hours ago, Thor said:

You're also the same person who said our current squad isn't good enough last season - and here we are in 2nd place.

 

Funnily enough you also called out the majority of our now best performers in Caceido, Cucu and Jackson...

Both Mount and Werner are examples of - just because you put a cat in the oven, doesn't make it a biscuit. Otherwise, just because they won, doesn't make them winners. The sun can shine on a dogs ass one day and things line up. Most of us are over the moon for that CL win, but are also realistic that it was opportunistic and completely out of nowhere for the most part. 

In fact, despite our ageing squad I think most would tell you our 2nd CL win was far more unexpected. 

Your logic is just dead in the water. Take basketball for instance. Am I supposed to believe Chris Bosh is a better player than Charles Barkley, or respect him more because he won and Charles didn't? That logic is even worse when you bring it over to soccer, which has 11 players, and is more likely to be determined by one off events/moments in a game. 

Yes, and are you fucking kidding me? Do you really think we'd be 2nd with Muddy and Noni on the wings this season? Really?
Considering the number of acquisitions in attack, would you say that the club agreed with me or you?

Would be very nice if you did not make shit up, but that might be asking too much. Always liked Jackson and was unsure about Cucu, just like everybody else including the manager at the time. Caicedo isn't and never will be my favorite type, but he's playing well even lately as a RB. And who gives a fuck? They will earn my respect once they win something, not before.

I know what Timo was for that team, and he did what was needed. I respect that, so I'm not one to come here and call him a "nothing player." And he's twice the player Mudryk--one of the worst wingers I've seen in a while.
I'd suggest taking a look at Mount's numbers in 20/21/22 (not only CL just overall). Hint: Eden Hazard never came close to influencing games like that in CL.

I don't really care tbh. I know what I saw in that CL run, so I have my own opinion about what was important to win. Shit on winners all you like, but as a fan of Chelsea, not specific individuals, I always respect winner even the players I personally dislike.

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by robsblubot

[Thor 2,468]

7 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Yes, and are you fucking kidding me? Do you really think we'd be 2nd with Muddy and Noni on the wings this season? Really?
Considering the number of acquisitions in attack, would you say that the club agreed with me or you?

Would be very nice if you did not make shit up, but that might be asking too much. Always liked Jackson and was unsure about Cucu, just like everybody else including the manager at the time. Caicedo isn't and never will be my favorite type, but he's playing well even lately as a RB. And who gives a fuck? They will earn my respect once they win something, not before.

I know what Timo was for that team, and he did what was needed. I respect that, so I'm not one to come here and call him a "nothing player." And he's twice the player Mudryk--one of the worst wingers I've seen in a while.
I'd suggest taking a look at Mount's numbers in 20/21/22 (not only CL just overall). Hint: Eden Hazard never came close to influencing games like that in CL.

I don't really care tbh. I know what I saw in that CL run, so I have my own opinion about what was important to win. Shit on winners all you like, but as a fan of Chelsea, not specific individuals, I always respect winner even the players I personally dislike.

 

Who exactly did we buy this transfer window? Most complained about lack of incoming. 

I'd say they agreed with me, as they stuck with the core of players - which you said weren't and probably won't be good enough to get top 4. lol...

Never called Timo a nothing player. Hilarious you are comparing Mount to Hazard. Absolutely hilarious - even from an impact perspective. You're like most fans these days, only care about an outcome and not what actually went into it. Ridiculous take, and one in line with American sports thinking of "well he won more so he is better". 

I'm not shitting on winners. You just associate good/bad with an outcome that has many factors that go into it. 

Sports is about consistency. In your stupid example, give both players the same surroundings, and the team with Hazard 9/10 performs better than the one with Mount. We watch sports for the crazy things that can happen. 

The owners are trying to build the team with the highest propensity to consistently win. Much like how just about most football players cited City as the best team despite not having won a CL. 

[Reddish-Blue 2,388]

What has happened in this thread?     😆

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,903]

8 hours ago, Thor said:

Who exactly did we buy this transfer window? Most complained about lack of incoming. 

Am I missing something, or some context, here?

[Mário César 1,046]

 

no one is saying that werner, like mount and havertz, weren't important in the ucl victory. it's undeniable and i'm sure we all recognize that and are grateful for the excellent moments and it's obvious that they are in the club's history. i also believe that that was the peak of the three's career

but we also all agree that it was best to let them go and opt for another type of player.

[NikkiCFC 8,070]

Especially considering PL is more difficult to win it and Drinkwater won it as important player. So he must be great winner. 

[Mário César 1,046]

cup formats are different from league formats. that's why liverpool won the champions league, like Chelsea, milan and real, without winning the league and even with poor results in the premierleague.

werner, mount and havertz aren't doing any better than they did with us and. From what I read, a good number of united, arsenal and even tottenham fans are suspicious and unenthusiastic about them. 
havertz has had some good moments, but he's fallen off the pace and has only scored 5 goals in 14 games with arsenal this season to premierleague. that's nothing different from what he did with us, and werner has only scored 3 goals in 33 games for tottenham in the last two years he's been at the club, and even at leipzig he didn't do anything special.

mount is constantly injured and is called just a nothing player.

we've made the right decision on all three in order to move up in the premierleague

[robsblubot 3,577]

12 hours ago, Thor said:

Who exactly did we buy this transfer window? Most complained about lack of incoming. 

I'd say they agreed with me, as they stuck with the core of players - which you said weren't and probably won't be good enough to get top 4. lol...

Never called Timo a nothing player. Hilarious you are comparing Mount to Hazard. Absolutely hilarious - even from an impact perspective. You're like most fans these days, only care about an outcome and not what actually went into it. Ridiculous take, and one in line with American sports thinking of "well he won more so he is better". 

I'm not shitting on winners. You just associate good/bad with an outcome that has many factors that go into it. 

Sports is about consistency. In your stupid example, give both players the same surroundings, and the team with Hazard 9/10 performs better than the one with Mount. We watch sports for the crazy things that can happen. 

The owners are trying to build the team with the highest propensity to consistently win. Much like how just about most football players cited City as the best team despite not having won a CL. 

I was responding to others who were indeed calling nothing players and whatnot. You hijacked the discussion and started making shit up.

Sport is NOT about consistency! A league format may be about consistency, and even then not player consistency given that players' form fluctuate over a long season. That's the reason you need a quality roster to win a league--something we did not have last season. Tourneys demand very different things especially in terms of energy and physicality. Different types thrive in different type of competitions. Eden CL record speaks for itself, as does Mount's. Fight with the numbers all you like.

I wrote over and over again that the attack last season wasn’t good enough and did not have enough options. The club simply singed 3 quality and expensive wingers/AM ffs. They spent £220m mostly strengthen the attack plus Veiga for LB/MID backup.
Last season's LW starter does not play PL matches and last season's RW starter rotates... for now. The most expensive players in the world are wingers, in case you don't know that.

Edited December 15, 2024 by robsblubot

[robsblubot 3,577]

3 hours ago, Mário César said:

 

no one is saying that werner, like mount and havertz, weren't important in the ucl victory. it's undeniable and i'm sure we all recognize that and are grateful for the excellent moments and it's obvious that they are in the club's history. i also believe that that was the peak of the three's career

but we also all agree that it was best to let them go and opt for another type of player.

Kinda are indeed saying that, like below.

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Especially considering PL is more difficult to win it and Drinkwater won it as important player. So he must be great winner. 

PL is not more difficult... it's different. The biggest club in the world does not play the PL, and is usually the one to beat for any team aiming to win CL. City dominated the PL for years until they were able to win a CL, and it was very very close against a limited Inter side.
It's hard to argue when people choose, for some strange reason to disregard numbers and facts. If Drinkwater had scored and helped win against Real Madrid in the knockout stage of a CL, then played well and assisted against a Man City in the final, then I'd agree to call him a great winner. He did not though. Mount did. Yes, Timo was less important in that CL run as he contributed less in terms of attacking output, but it's hard to imagine many other players able to, or willing to, do the work he did.
It's very important to know why you win, so some of what you did before can be replicated.

1 hour ago, Mário César said:

cup formats are different from league formats. that's why liverpool won the champions league, like Chelsea, milan and real, without winning the league and even with poor results in the premierleague.

werner, mount and havertz aren't doing any better than they did with us and. From what I read, a good number of united, arsenal and even tottenham fans are suspicious and unenthusiastic about them. 
havertz has had some good moments, but he's fallen off the pace and has only scored 5 goals in 14 games with arsenal this season to premierleague. that's nothing different from what he did with us, and werner has only scored 3 goals in 33 games for tottenham in the last two years he's been at the club, and even at leipzig he didn't do anything special.

mount is constantly injured and is called just a nothing player.

we've made the right decision on all three in order to move up in the premierleague

Yes, the competitions are VERY different and demand different things from players and teams. I was one of the suckers who watched Eden play CL hoping that he would replicate what he did in the league, but he disappeared over and over again. He really was poor in CL.

Agreed that Kai is indeed the same player he was for us. I wasn't his biggest fan, but thought he was an interesting player to have as rotation/option--if the club only has him as a #9 that's a mistake by the club. Werner the same... still getting Mudryk to replace him was a big downgrade.
Mount is a different story as he has hardly played for United; he may very well be physically broken at this point, but once again, I saw what I saw back then: excellent performances in the league and great performances in the CL. 🤷‍♂️
As I write, Mount once again is subbed off injured against Man City--lasted for about 15min.

Edited December 15, 2024 by robsblubot

[robsblubot 3,577]

2 hours ago, robsblubot said:

I was responding to others who were indeed calling nothing players and whatnot. You hijacked the discussion and started making shit up.

Sport is NOT about consistency! A league format may be about consistency, and even then not player consistency given that players' form fluctuate over a long season. That's the reason you need a quality roster to win a league--something we did not have last season. Tourneys demand very different things especially in terms of energy and physicality. Different types thrive in different type of competitions. Eden CL record speaks for itself, as does Mount's. Fight with the numbers all you like.

I wrote over and over again that the attack last season wasn’t good enough and did not have enough options. The club simply singed 3 quality and expensive wingers/AM ffs. They spent £220m mostly strengthen the attack plus Veiga for LB/MID backup.
Last season's LW starter does not play PL matches and last season's RW starter rotates... for now. The most expensive players in the world are wingers, in case you don't know that.

Shameless self-reply given that I forgot to mention the most important trait in single-elimination matches: mentality (esp concentration).

I’d describe Mudryk as a player with low mentality. Timo would be the opposite.

Was reminded of that watching man city today.. for some reason. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by robsblubot

[NikkiCFC 8,070]

3 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Fight with the numbers all you like.

I wrote over and over again that the attack last season wasn’t good enough and did not have enough options.

I'll give you a chance to fight numbers as well. 

Attack that wasn't good enough last season scored more goals in PL (77) than in any of the seasons Mount, Havertz and Werner were here 69, 58, 76, 38. 

I disagree about what is harder to win. If you win PL you are undisputedly best team in the league. 

In CL it's easier for surprises to happen. 

How do you explain that we won CL while finishing 4th and 6th in the league? Spurs reached final while finishing 4th in the league. PSG reached final without facing top10 teams in Europe. Dortmund, Atalanta and Leipzig was their road. They lost finals but in one game off anything could happen. Early penalty, red card... So easy draw, a little bit of luck and you have a chance. In the league you cannot hide under those things. Lyon eliminated City while finishing 10th in Ligue 1. We all know City wins 9 out of 10. I can maybe agree that for absolutely best teams it's easier to win league than CL because you have no place for mistake but we were not one of those. That's why we couldn't challenge City in the league but did won final. 

From Werner I remember horrific finishing so how is that strong mentality? Once he miss one big chance he is done. Also I don't remember excellent performances from Mount in the league. In his career he played around 60 games against traditional big 6 and scored just twice. One was DDG howler in Cup. Most of his goals were against 5,6 worst teams in the league and assists from corners. Easy to check. 

[robsblubot 3,577]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

I'll give you a chance to fight numbers as well. 

Attack that wasn't good enough last season scored more goals in PL (77) than in any of the seasons Mount, Havertz and Werner were here 69, 58, 76, 38. 

I disagree about what is harder to win. If you win PL you are undisputedly best team in the league. 

In CL it's easier for surprises to happen. 

How do you explain that we won CL while finishing 4th and 6th in the league? Spurs reached final while finishing 4th in the league. PSG reached final without facing top10 teams in Europe. Dortmund, Atalanta and Leipzig was their road. They lost finals but in one game off anything could happen. Early penalty, red card... So easy draw, a little bit of luck and you have a chance. In the league you cannot hide under those things. Lyon eliminated City while finishing 10th in Ligue 1. We all know City wins 9 out of 10. I can maybe agree that for absolutely best teams it's easier to win league than CL because you have no place for mistake but we were not one of those. That's why we couldn't challenge City in the league but did won final. 

From Werner I remember horrific finishing so how is that strong mentality? Once he miss one big chance he is done. Also I don't remember excellent performances from Mount in the league. In his career he played around 60 games against traditional big 6 and scored just twice. One was DDG howler in Cup. Most of his goals were against 5,6 worst teams in the league and assists from corners. Easy to check. 

I thought we were talking about individuals and individual stats, now you bring up team stats and I need to "fight them?" 🤷‍♂️ Hmm how about different team setup w/ different manager, different strategy, different players with different characteristics, different coaches at the club, different fitness plan and fitness coach, different owner, and finally, one won the CL against the toughest opposition and the other jack shit!?

That team won! Even somewhat comfortably considering the level of opposition. It shouldn't matter if you disliked something in that team, I mean if you are a Chelsea fan and not a fan of some players. Mount's influence in the semi and final is undeniable; some players have that quality, to deal with tough matches better than others (Eden could not). It's easy to speculate others could've done Werner's job, but that's guesswork.

The fact that a super defensive team can sometimes surprise and go far in cup competitions such as CL and WC does not negate the fact that in the VAST majority of times, the best wins. It sounds like you don't value beating the biggest club in the world in CL semis and then beating City (the strongest PL team by far) in the final, which is super odd tbh. Pep was heard saying Chelsea were favorites prior to the final and I was feeling pretty confident for that match.

No, I don't think Werner's poor finishing has anything to do with mentality. He is a high concentration player who will not let opponents walk past him for the entirety of the match. His poor finishing is entirely due to poor technique--his first touch isn't the greatest either which is what limits him as a player. His first touch is the same as Mudryk -- they have similar technique. Timo is better at pretty much everything else (maybe Muddy is quicker).
Mount in the 21/22 PL, 11 goals and 10 assists (bet that with these numbers he got a few MotM too). Mount has very good technique -- the only skill he's really poor at is dribbling, which IMO explains some of the hate he got.

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by robsblubot

[NikkiCFC 8,070]

19 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

I thought we were talking about individuals and individual stats, now you bring up team stats and I need to "fight them?" 🤷‍♂️ Hmm how about different team setup w/ different manager, different strategy, different players with different characteristics, different coaches at the club, different fitness plan and fitness coach, different owner, and finally, one won the CL against the toughest opposition and the other jack shit!?

That team won! Even somewhat comfortably considering the level of opposition. It shouldn't matter if you disliked something in that team, I mean if you are a Chelsea fan and not a fan of some players. Mount's influence in the semi and final is undeniable; some players have that quality, to deal with tough matches better than others (Eden could not). It's easy to speculate others could've done Werner's job, but that's guesswork.

The fact that a super defensive team can sometimes surprise and go far in cup competitions such as CL and WC does not negate the fact that in the VAST majority of times, the best wins. It sounds like you don't value beating the biggest club in the world in CL semis and then beating City (the strongest PL team by far) in the final, which is super odd tbh. Pep was heard saying Chelsea were favorites prior to the final and I was feeling pretty confident for that match.

No, I don't think Werner's poor finishing has anything to do with mentality. He is a high concentration player who will not let opponents walk past him for the entirety of the match. His poor finishing is entirely due to poor technique--his first touch isn't the greatest either which is what limits him as a player. His first touch is the same as Mudryk -- they have similar technique. Timo is better at pretty much everything else (maybe Muddy is quicker).
Mount in the 21/22 PL, 11 goals and 10 assists (bet that with these numbers he got a few MotM too). Mount has very good technique -- the only skill he's really poor at is dribbling, which IMO explains some of the hate he got.

 

It was system working. All played part. Pretty sure if Pulisic started semi and final instead of him we would still won. A couple weeks before we won at Etihad 1:3 with Ziyech motm and he didn't play. And of those 11 goals 10 came against 16-20 placed teams. Just one against top15. My frustration with him came early in first season when he was always starting after doing nothing for weeks. I'm tired of Mount talk. 5 years now it's the same never changed my opinion. In 10 days you could say he has one goal in 2 years! Point like Mario said is all good decisions to sell them. All 3 wouldn't make a bench in current Chelsea. 

[robsblubot 3,577]

33 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

It was system working. All played part. Pretty sure if Pulisic started semi and final instead of him we would still won. A couple weeks before we won at Etihad 1:3 with Ziyech motm and he didn't play. And of those 11 goals 10 came against 16-20 placed teams. Just one against top15. My frustration with him came early in first season when he was always starting after doing nothing for weeks. I'm tired of Mount talk. 5 years now it's the same never changed my opinion. In 10 days you could say he has one goal in 2 years! Point like Mario said is all good decisions to sell them. All 3 wouldn't make a bench in current Chelsea. 

Players IMPLEMENT the system. How well they do it plays a big part in how effective the system is.
Pulisic instead of Mount or Timo? He's more similar to Timo (less defensive which would've been risky), and very different from Mount. Replace Mount in either of the games and we'd be missing a goal to go through--not to mention the D aspect against strongest opposition.

Once again you move the goal posts. For the league you choose to consider the quality of the opposition, but in CL you completely disregard the quality of the opposition. 🤷‍♂️

🤣 all three would be excellent options right now; if you think Mudryk is as good as any of them, then I will have to question your sanity. Honestly, there is a point you should just check your bias and stick with accomplishments alone. Kai alone would've been an amazing aerial option (a Giroud type) we currently don't have in the squad.

This squad has won jack shit. It's a very promissing squad with excellent players everywhere given the cost of building this team. Maybe Liverpool stutters and we win the league this season, given City's struggles; or maybe the squad will drop form and struggle later on. Maybe these players will do well in CL, or maybe they will struggle against different styles... we do not know this yet.

I'm looking forward to seeing this squad play CL--very curious to find out what type of player Cole is, but his Euros play was reassuring.

Edited December 15, 2024 by robsblubot

[Thor 2,468]

8 hours ago, robsblubot said:

I was responding to others who were indeed calling nothing players and whatnot. You hijacked the discussion and started making shit up.

Sport is NOT about consistency! A league format may be about consistency, and even then not player consistency given that players' form fluctuate over a long season. That's the reason you need a quality roster to win a league--something we did not have last season. Tourneys demand very different things especially in terms of energy and physicality. Different types thrive in different type of competitions. Eden CL record speaks for itself, as does Mount's. Fight with the numbers all you like.

I wrote over and over again that the attack last season wasn’t good enough and did not have enough options. The club simply singed 3 quality and expensive wingers/AM ffs. They spent £220m mostly strengthen the attack plus Veiga for LB/MID backup.
Last season's LW starter does not play PL matches and last season's RW starter rotates... for now. The most expensive players in the world are wingers, in case you don't know that.

Our starting line up is literally the same bar one winger - maybe midfield that now slightly rotates. 
 

Let it go. 

[Thor 2,468]

9 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Especially considering PL is more difficult to win it and Drinkwater won it as important player. So he must be great winner. 

Nah man. I respect him way more than all the current players because he’s a winner. Ya know?