Timo Werner

[Jase 43,479]

8 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Jason, what is the point here? Lets be real, he is not going to get them put on a plate to the point where he doesn’t have to do anything bar tap them in every week, is he? No striker is going to consistently get every through ball played only from central areas over the course of a season. Thats why attackers have the hardest positions in football, because some days you get good service some days you don’t but at the end of the day their job is for them to score/assist/affect the game in a positive manner. 

He's had a collection of moments where he’s ended up in some okay positions but just hasn’t been making the most of them for various reasons and as mentioned above, its probably something that isn’t necessarily a huge issue in terms of him not being a good player but its also something that is frustrating because we know he is a good player and has good pedigree. Even the times the ball gets trapped under his feet etc, which happens a lot, these aren’t necessarily complex things in the grand scale of it, its more the basics. This may also stem from his confidence in this period though which I wouldn’t be surprised with but some of it undoubtedly also comes from his attributes as a footballer.

Sometimes he might only end up getting one or two half chances in a game. Sometimes he will get five or six. Either way, he has to become more efficient in every aspect, from taking the ball/controlling it to setting himself to shoot.

Of course Werner is not going to consistently get chances laid on a plate for him (it's not like we're even great at creating chances to begin with) but my point is, it's not exactly easy to turn every ball over the top that's played into the channels into goalscoring opportunities for himself, is it? If it's played to the left channel, then you could argue he should do something good with it. If it's played to the right channel, then he's having to make the run from left to right, gather the ball and depending how much time and space there's left then, turn and get at the goal. A decent example of this would be the save he ended up forcing Oblak to make early in the second half. What I would like to see more, especially on the left, is him cutting inside onto his right foot and shoot more at goal. Annoying that he looks stick it on his left foot every time.

8 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Its getting to the point where the rest of the team are playing at a high level and making half chances so sooner or later he has to put them away or we will look for other solutions. Which is why I think Havertz as a false 9 is going to be more of a reoccurring theme towards the end of the season.

Right because Werner is the only one spurning chances, isn't he? Havertz didn't spurn 2-3 chances at Leeds for example? Ziyech didn't spurn his against United? Or Giroud against United? CHO against Atletico? 

And Havertz playing as the False 9 has more gotta do with (a) Werner is simply not an out-and-out #9 and (b) Abraham and Giroud aren't all that great. Havertz can offer the same and more with his game while leading the line compared to the latter two.

8 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

The luxury he has right now is that perhaps Pulisic hasn’t really arrived this season due to a reoccurrence of injuries which has hampered him playing 4 or 5 weeks from the beginning in a row to get some match rhythm but he has to be wary because Hudson Odoi is more than capable of being a prominent feature in that front 3. Mount will also continue to be prominent. 

But Werner isn't exactly the same player as Pulisic and CHO, is it? One is a vertical runner, someone who prefers to run in behind while the other 2 are essentially wingers who prefer the ball at their feet. If say the other 2 in the front 3 are Havertz and Mount, then the other player shouldn't be CHO or Pulisic because all 3 prefer the ball at their feet and none of them are going to consistently make runs off the ball, make runs in behind to stretch defences and create spaces. 

8 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

A good example of what I am talking about is Morata’s first goal v Stoke in our 4-0 win with Conte. He takes what would be seen as a more difficult touch from Azpi’s ball in behind as opposed to controlling it with his left foot which means he has bought himself extra time to set himself and shoot on his best side. If he lets it slide across to his left and he controls it he doesn’t have as much time to set himself and gives the defender a better opportunity to get back. 

Is that really a good example? The ball from Azpi was hardly played to the channel, it was almost in the central area and if someone was comfortable to shoot with his left foot, he wouldn't have done what Morata did, would he? 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

Of course Werner is not going to consistently get chances laid on a plate for him (it's not like we're even great at creating chances to begin with) but my point is, it's not exactly easy to turn every ball over the top that's played into the channels into goalscoring opportunities for himself, is it? If it's played to the left channel, then you could argue he should do something good with it. If it's played to the right channel, then he's having to make the run from left to right, gather the ball and depending how much time and space there's left then, turn and get at the goal. A decent example of this would be the save he ended up forcing Oblak to make early in the second half. What I would like to see more, especially on the left, is him cutting inside onto his right foot and shoot more at goal. Annoying that he looks stick it on his left foot every time.

Right because Werner is the only one spurning chances, isn't he? Havertz didn't spurn 2-3 chances at Leeds for example? Ziyech didn't spurn his against United? Or Giroud against United? CHO against Atletico? 

And Havertz playing as the False 9 has more gotta do with (a) Werner is simply not an out-and-out #9 and (b) Abraham and Giroud aren't all that great. Havertz can offer the same and more with his game while leading the line compared to the latter two.

But Werner isn't exactly the same player as Pulisic and CHO, is it? One is a vertical runner, someone who prefers to run in behind while the other 2 are essentially wingers who prefer the ball at their feet. If say the other 2 in the front 3 are Havertz and Mount, then the other player shouldn't be CHO or Pulisic because all 3 prefer the ball at their feet and none of them are going to consistently make runs off the ball, make runs in behind to stretch defences and create spaces. 

Is that really a good example? The ball from Azpi was hardly played to the channel, it was almost in the central area and if someone was comfortable to shoot with his left foot, he wouldn't have done what Morata did, would he? 

Its not but thats were good players are able to fashion out chances from those positions. Werner is clearly a good player who can do better in this aspect particularly on the right side at times. For example, Costa v West Brom from that near impossible angle few seasons ago where he managed to hit the top corner highlights how good players are capable of creating goals/chances out of very little. Or his goal in the cup final v Spurs, its not exactly a hugely promising position but he managed to set himself to shoot and although it was deflected, he had made the chance to shoot. Harry Kane is another who has managed to score a number of goals from more difficult positions. Jamie Vardy also over the seasons. Werner has got the pedigree and has the ability to be more proficient in these areas, if he can only score goals on one side or relies on balls that get him in only from one side then he’s not going to have much chance of being a top top player is he? Or score as many goals as we would want him to...

Other players are spurring chances, is correct but Werner scored 30+ goals last season. You would think he would be more proficient or able to get more goals from the positions he gets in but for various reasons he isnt. Thats the point and the general concern, we are not talking about Mount or Havertz etc, although Havertz could have scored v Leeds easily. No point in deflecting away from this every time its mentioned and saying what about player X or Y when Havertz, Pulisic, Mount are as you said yourself, are different types of players. Werner may be a different type of player but thats not going to save him or give him luxuries of playing every week because he is different to Callum or Christian, particularly under Tuchel who is notoriously demanding and has shown before he isn’t exactly afraid to turn around and change his 11 or change his system.

The position Morata arrived from isn’t particularly vital, the point is more how he is able to set himself and buys himself an extra second to set himself with that touch because if he lets it run to his left the ball is a bit wider out and it also might have given the defender more of a chance to get back. Its the same with players receiving the ball on the half turn or how they position their bodies so they dont need to take extra touches and can play quicker, it seems a basic skill but its also hugely effective and thats why people are so focused on how players position themselves to get onto passes/create shooting positions etc. City’s forwards are a massive example of this. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Its not but thats were good players are able to fashion out chances from those positions. Werner is clearly a good player who can do better in this aspect particularly on the right side at times. For example, Costa v West Brom from that near impossible angle few seasons ago where he managed to hit the top corner highlights how good players are capable of creating goals/chances out of very little. Or his goal in the cup final v Spurs, its not exactly a hugely promising position but he managed to set himself to shoot and although it was deflected, he had made the chance to shoot. Harry Kane is another who has managed to score a number of goals from more difficult positions. Jamie Vardy also over the seasons. Werner has got the pedigree and has the ability to be more proficient in these areas, if he can only score goals on one side or relies on balls that get him in only from one side then he’s not going to have much chance of being a top top player is he? Or score as many goals as we would want him to...

But it's not every game you see someone score a goal out of nothing, is it? Werner also created something out of nothing for our first goal against Southampton earlier this season for example. 

Vardy is something of a late bloomer and Kane also did not become the striker that he is today immediately.

15 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Other players are spurring chances, is correct but Werner scored 30+ goals last season. You would think he would be more proficient or able to get more goals from the positions he gets in but for various reasons he isnt. Thats the point and the general concern, we are not talking about Mount or Havertz etc, although Havertz could have scored v Leeds easily. No point in deflecting away from this every time its mentioned and saying what about player X or Y when Havertz, Pulisic, Mount are as you said yourself, are different types of players. Werner may be a different type of player but thats not going to save him or give him luxuries of playing every week because he is different to Callum or Christian, particularly under Tuchel who is notoriously demanding and has shown before he isn’t exactly afraid to turn around and change his 11 or change his system.

The difference or problem with Werner at Leipzig and Werner at Chelsea is that Leipzig tend to create a lot of chances while we don't - we can talk about the nature of the leagues and all that but that's another debate. Werner did miss a lot of chances in the Bundesliga, TBF, but Leipzig also created more than enough chances for him to make up the numbers. It's the same case with Lewandowski, Haaland etc. We don't create a lot of chances. So unless Werner puts away some of the clear chances he gets, every miss is gonna get magnified. I guess long story short, he is/was a volume shooter (I believe that's the right term lol). We can obviously get better at creating chances, creating more chances but it's unlikely that we'll ever create the same number of opportunities for him because it's the Premier League etc. So he needs to be more clinical with the chances, which one would hope it would come with more experience, composure going forward.

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

But it's not every game you see someone score a goal out of nothing, is it? Werner also created something out of nothing for our first goal against Southampton earlier this season for example. 

Vardy is something of a late bloomer and Kane also did not become the striker that he is today immediately.

The difference or problem with Werner at Leipzig and Werner at Chelsea is that Leipzig tend to create a lot of chances while we don't - we can talk about the nature of the leagues and all that but that's another debate. Werner did miss a lot of chances in the Bundesliga, TBF, but Leipzig also created more than enough chances for him to make up the numbers. It's the same case with Lewandowski, Haaland etc. We don't create a lot of chances. So unless Werner puts away some of the clear chances he gets, every miss is gonna get magnified. I guess long story short, he is/was a volume shooter (I believe that's the right term lol). We can obviously get better at creating chances, creating more chances but it's unlikely that we'll ever create the same number of opportunities for him because it's the Premier League etc. So he needs to be more clinical with the chances, which one would hope it would come with more experience, composure going forward.

No but again, your half missing the point. Good strikers/attackers can take half chances or limited service or next to nothing and do something to affect the game.

I am not expecting him to recreate that Costa goal or a goal like Morata’s third in that hattrick v Stoke, I have no doubts that he isn’t particularly capable of those sort of goals but the opportunities he has had that he hasn't really taken advantage of, where he finds himself in scenarios which if he was more decisive or confident or generally better technically at times, he should be doing much better. 

I agree our chance creation rate isn’t amazing leaving a lot to he desired and that he is perhaps a volume shooter but a lot of teams also create scenarios in which the goalscorers individual quality makes more of the difference than the actual approach play. Liverpool with Mane and Salah at times are key examples of this also, a lot of Salah’s goals involve him fashioning a shooting chance himself. They get the space also but they still have to actually fashion the chance or do something to create the space/opportunity to shoot.

I dont see how he can have gone from being so clinical in Germany to being what he is now. He is 25 years old so saying hopefully he can develop his composure with experience is simply something I don’t think should he applied to him, in fact I think if he lacked composure he wouldn’t have reached the goal total he did last season because some of them were tough finishes in which hes found himself in similar situations this season but its just not worked out be it through being inefficient infront of goal, getting his positioning wrong or just suffering from a huge confidence dip.

He’s been around for long enough and scored enough goals where we should be able to expect more. If he was 20, 21 I could see the point. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[King Kante 1,474]

16 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

No but again, your half missing the point. Good strikers/attackers can take half chances or limited service or next to nothing and do something to affect the game.

I am not expecting him to recreate that Costa goal or a goal like Morata’s third in that hattrick v Stoke, I have no doubts that he isn’t particularly capable of those sort of goals but the opportunities he has had that he hasn't really taken advantage of, where he finds himself in scenarios which if he was more decisive or confident or generally better technically at times, he should be doing much better. 

I agree our chance creation rate isn’t amazing leaving a lot to he desired and that he is perhaps a volume shooter but a lot of teams also create scenarios in which the goalscorers individual quality makes more of the difference than the actual approach play. Liverpool with Mane and Salah at times are key examples of this also, a lot of Salah’s goals involve him fashioning a shooting chance himself. They get the space also but they still have to actually fashion the chance or do something to create the space/opportunity to shoot.

I dont see how he can have gone from being so clinical in Germany to being what he is now. He is 25 years old so saying hopefully he can develop his composure with experience is simply something I don’t think should he applied to him, in fact I think if he lacked composure he wouldn’t have reached the goal total he did last season because some of them were tough finishes in which hes found himself in similar situations this season but its just not worked out be it through being inefficient infront of goal, getting his positioning wrong or just suffering from a huge confidence dip.

He’s been around for long enough and scored enough goals where we should be able to expect more. If he was 20, 21 I could see the point. 

Tbf, I think he has been caught out by the pace and physicality of the league and it has got to him a little. 

I have said elsewhere, I expect him to end up like a Pedro type player for us (which is not a slight against him as I always rated Pedro.) 

However, the boy does need to be given credit in that he is still doing the basics right, even if his first touch isn'tthe best. Imo, next season he will be a lot better. Maybe not a 20+ goal player, bit certainly a 12+ one who gets a lot of assists for a CF he plays alongside (if we can get a clinical CF.) 

Edited March 21, 2021 by King Kante

[Jase 43,479]

9 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

No but again, your half missing the point. Good strikers/attackers can take half chances or limited service or next to nothing and do something to affect the game.

I am not expecting him to recreate that Costa goal or a goal like Morata’s third in that hattrick v Stoke, I have no doubts that he isn’t particularly capable of those sort of goals but the opportunities he has had that he hasn't really taken advantage of, where he finds himself in scenarios which if he was more decisive or confident or generally better technically at times, he should be doing much better. 

I don't disagree at all. My point is those strikers that you named didn't do the things they are doing now or have been doing years ago. It's all part of developing their game, getting to the point where they become as much as complete striker as possible. Will Werner develop his game to become more complete? Only time will tell.

14 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I agree our chance creation rate isn’t amazing leaving a lot to he desired and that he is perhaps a volume shooter but a lot of teams also create scenarios in which the goalscorers individual quality makes more of the difference than the actual approach play. Liverpool with Mane and Salah at times are key examples of this also, a lot of Salah’s goals involve him fashioning a shooting chance himself. They get the space also but they still have to actually fashion the chance or do something to create the space/opportunity to shoot.

But you also gotta ask, are we playing to Werner's strengths to allow him to do what you said there? Have we been utilizing him properly (at least pre-Tuchel)? Liverpool, at their peak, play at a high intensity, get the ball forward quickly to Salah, Mane to do damage before opponents have the time to settle into their defensive shape. This season, we're seeing the problems they have breaking down teams when they aren't at their peak, when their play is slower and more ponderous (as seen by their recent home defeats). Even Mane and Salah have had their droughts of sorts (though not as long as Werner) this season. Our play under Lampard were ponderous and slow at the best of times and it revolved around spamming crosses to Abraham/Giroud. Not easy to create chance for yourself if the play is generally slow, allowing teams to get back in shape and you don't have much space to create anything yourself. The play under Tuchel has been better but for one reason or another, it's still not clicking for us in attacking wise. Fabregas once said this of his partnership with Costa.

Other reasons as to why he doesn't fashion chances for himself consistently could be down to (a) not being comfortable technically, something you mentioned above, (b) lack of confidence - destroyed by his misses, usage under Lampard, (c) adapting to the different kind of teams and challenges in the Premier League (teams in the Bundesliga generally play the same way across the table).

31 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I dont see how he can have gone from being so clinical in Germany to being what he is now. He is 25 years old so saying hopefully he can develop his composure with experience is simply something I don’t think should he applied to him, in fact I think if he lacked composure he wouldn’t have reached the goal total he did last season because some of them were tough finishes in which hes found himself in similar situations this season but its just not worked out be it through being inefficient infront of goal, getting his positioning wrong or just suffering from a huge confidence dip.

I don't think he's turned into a bad finisher all of a sudden because he didn't score 90+ goals for Leipzig in four seasons by accident. But I guess there's a difference between being clinical in the Bundesliga and being clinical in the Premier League? In the Bundesliga, he can get 5 chances and score 3 but miss 2 while in the Premier League, he gets only like 2 chances and misses both. This goes back to the volume shooter point I was talking about I guess. There's maybe more pressure inside his head now, knowing he gets very few chances to score now compared to at Leipzig and knowing he has to put them away. I don't know.

On a slightly different note, I also think he has been cursed or the football gods are not a fan of him. I mean, you can point to bad finishing as the main reason for his poor goal return since late November but it also feels like he hasn't had much luck when the drought has been as long as it has. He's hit the woodwork like 5 times in the Premier League this season (IIRC) and has had goals ruled out stupidly (at Liverpool) or for the narrowest of offside calls (at Leicester). I know these things feel superficial or whatever but the narrative around him could have been different had some of those moments gone his way.

[Jase 43,479]

On 16/03/2021 at 22:51, ZAPHOD2319 said:

It seems like some rag I have never read, Football Insider, is floating this idea that we are going to trade Werner for Haaland with some cash. Now the other rags are all over it. It seems like a silly idea..... would be great if there was some truth to it.

The rumor was BS as it came from a dodgy source but Bild decided to look into the rumor anyway and has claimed that Tuchel has big plans for Werner, who will play alongside Haaland if we sign him. Bild also claimed that Tuchel has been promised a big-name signing by the club and it will not affect Werner in any way (which is hardly surprising since he's supposedly a club signing and was reportedly one of the reasons why we hired a German manager).

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/3/23/22346491/Chelsea-not-contemplating-werner-departure-despite-haaland-links-report

[MoroccanBlue 5,296]

IF there is truth to that there can't possibly be a way we can continue with the back 3. 

Haaland, Werner, Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech, CHO, Mount, Giroud/Tammy. 

8 players fighting for 3 spots. 

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

IF there is truth to that there can't possibly be a way we can continue with the back 3. 

Haaland, Werner, Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech, CHO, Mount, Giroud/Tammy. 

8 players fighting for 3 spots. 

If Haaland comes, which i strongly doubt, I think Giroud and Tammy will both leave Haaland and Havertz will be playing in the CF position depending on game plan. CHO will be predominantly used as wingback I think. He does not have enough output to play as AM but does have decent defensive instincts.

[MoroccanBlue 5,296]

16 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

If Haaland comes, which i strongly doubt, I think Giroud and Tammy will both leave Haaland and Havertz will be playing in the CF position depending on game plan. CHO will be predominantly used as wingback I think. He does not have enough output to play as AM but does have decent defensive instincts.

I highly doubt neither Havertz nor Haaland will prefer playing second fiddle to the other 😂

This isn't FIFA. These are two generational talents we are talking about. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by MoroccanBlue

[Jase 43,479]

23 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I highly doubt neither Havertz nor Haaland will prefer playing second fiddle to the other 😂

This isn't FIFA. These are two generational talents we are talking about. 

The funny thing is, we are already having that problem right now with the current squad. As much as we need a new striker, it feels like we're just buying all the shiny toys out there without having a cohesive plan to fit them all in. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,296]

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

The funny thing is, we are already having that problem right now with the current squad. As much as we need a new striker, it feels like we're just buying all the shiny toys out there without having a cohesive plan to fit them all in. 

Haaland is purely Roman. From Tuchel's comments, its seems he'd rather build the attack around Werner and Havertz (which he should) 

[Jase 43,479]

37 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Haaland is purely Roman. From Tuchel's comments, its seems he'd rather build the attack around Werner and Havertz (which he should) 

So was Havertz apparently.

[R2D2 368]

3 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Haaland is purely Roman. From Tuchel's comments, its seems he'd rather build the attack around Werner and Havertz (which he should) 

Sorry but a top class striker is a must Havertz and Werner can operate in different positions as well as behind the striker, if anything one of Ziyech or Pulisic should leave, a striker is an absolute must for us and if you have the chance to sign someone like Haaland you do it and worry afterwards about the starting 11.

Edited March 23, 2021 by R2D2

[MoroccanBlue 5,296]

14 hours ago, R2D2 said:

Sorry but a top class striker is a must Havertz and Werner can operate in different positions as well as behind the striker, if anything one of Ziyech or Pulisic should leave, a striker is an absolute must for us and if you have the chance to sign someone like Haaland you do it and worry afterwards about the starting 11.

And what if Pulisic or Ziyech don't want to leave? We bought Pulisic for the potential of resale value. In this Covid climate, who's going to buy him for more than 60 million? Who's going to buy Ziyech for more than 40 million after a season?

Make no mistake, I like Haaland. But I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the rumors this is purely a Roman buy would go away. Tuchel needs to want him also and have plans to utilise him. And I cannot see him utilising all of our attackers in this 3 at the back system. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by MoroccanBlue

[Dan Lee 47]

20 hours ago, Jason said:

The funny thing is, we are already having that problem right now with the current squad. As much as we need a new striker, it feels like we're just buying all the shiny toys out there without having a cohesive plan to fit them all in. 

Agree with you. 

[Azul 1,615]

He missed another sitter today🤦‍♂️......when will it end

[Vesper 28,772]

27 minutes ago, Azul said:

He missed another sitter today🤦‍♂️......when will it end

it was a chance but not a sitter