Super Frank Thread

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Just because Conte wanted them, it doesn't mean they are any good. Candreva is your average workhorse (which I might argue we already have a few). Sandro hasn't pulled up any trees for some time now. Bonucci would have maybe been an upgrade but he was already 29/30 years old when we wanted him and it's debatable whether he would have thrived at the highest level coming to the Premier League at that age. 

Being pragmatic/conservative is just Conte's nature. Don't think it had anything to do with him not trusting the defenders, even if he wanted upgrades. He has gotten his players, for example, at Inter and yet, he still plays pragmatically with them. 

Why are you using hindsight? Sandro at the time was arguably one of the best left backs in the world. Same thing with Bonucci. Candreva was known as being one of the most consistent players in Italy as well at the time. It was clear as day Conte wanted improvements on our back five, regardless of age. 

Toward the end of the 2017 season, more and more clubs started finding us out. This led to Conte's viscous demands in the summer market, to which we only got Zappacosta on deadline day. It was a complete shift in terms of how we played given we played some great football that 2017 season. 2018 was a new level of cowardice that Mourinho would've been proud of and this was all down to Conte throwing his toys out the pram because he didn't fully trust his side to play the football he wanted. 

[Jase 43,479]

37 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Why are you using hindsight? Sandro at the time was arguably one of the best left backs in the world. Same thing with Bonucci. Candreva was known as being one of the most consistent players in Italy as well at the time. It was clear as day Conte wanted improvements on our back five, regardless of age. 

Toward the end of the 2017 season, more and more clubs started finding us out. This led to Conte's viscous demands in the summer market, to which we only got Zappacosta on deadline day. It was a complete shift in terms of how we played given we played some great football that 2017 season.

No one is saying Conte was wrong to wanting upgrades on the squad but let's not pretend like every target he wanted then were top quality. This is also the same manager who wanted Fernando Llorente for example.

Won't necessarily disagree with you on Sandro but given he hasn't pulled up any trees between then and now, I won't say it was a big blow we didn't get him but he would likely have been an upgrade on Alonso/Emerson. Don't think it was wrong to question Bonucci based on what I said previously. Candreva may have been consistent but that doesn't mean he was (or is) top quality. Even average players can be consistent.

44 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

2018 was a new level of cowardice that Mourinho would've been proud of and this was all down to Conte throwing his toys out the pram because he didn't fully trust his side to play the football he wanted. 

Did you say this back then or did you just come up with this theory all of a sudden? Conte gave up that season simply because he didn't get what he wanted. The board deserved criticism for not backing him then but it was still no reason for him to just give up. It was still the same squad that won the league in the previous season and he always found ways then to fix problems. Conte just didn't care anymore after in 2018 because he didn't get what he wanted, like a small kid who had his toys taken away from him. 

[Atomiswave 6,117]

1 hour ago, Mana said:

Look at Arsenal today. They have quality up front, including Aubameyang at his prime. Top goalscorer in the PL.

Against Olympiakos, he done a bicycle kick goal and that should have concluded the tie.

...only for their defense to feck everything up.

And that's why our defense needs major changes. They need to be binned. You cannot build a house without laying out the foundations. You win titles by having a rock solid defense.

Bin the lot of them. I'll spare James and maybe Tomori, but bin the lot of them if we want to start winning things.

Yup, you cant build shit without being able to defend. Even klopp and pep saw it coming.

[Henrique 9,133]

1 hour ago, Special Juan said:

Tomori and Mount offer nothing at all to this team, nothing.

This man is speaking sense.

[Henrique 9,133]

1 hour ago, Mana said:

Look at Arsenal today. They have quality up front, including Aubameyang at his prime. Top goalscorer in the PL.

Against Olympiakos, he done a bicycle kick goal and that should have concluded the tie.

...only for their defense to feck everything up.

And that's why our defense needs major changes. They need to be binned. You cannot build a house without laying out the foundations. You win titles by having a rock solid defense.

Bin the lot of them. I'll spare James and maybe Tomori, but bin the lot of them if we want to start winning things.

James and Tomori must learn mate. They are good enough to start game after game.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

But he did take it too far, no? Think you said the same, IIRC?

And he's encountering similar, if not the same issues now at Juventus and their fans aren't happy. 

Did you see how open we were when we lost the ball the first half of the season under Sarri? Even in that 18 game unbeaten run. I mean the Brighton and Arsenal games was a very very early indication of how open we were regardless of the style and how many goals we were scoring because the gaps between the midfield and defence were huge. And he saw this clearly hence why after we struggled for a bit we seemed.to finally click and went on that 15-20 match run in all competitions where we didnt lose.

Cesc said something that he stopped players from midfield making as many forward runs off the ball or something and our attacking play undoubtedly suffered as we didnt have that extra threat (also Hazard, Willian, Morata all at times throughout the season holding onto the ball far too long and didnt have the same selflessness to make runs off the ball in behind teams compared to what the likes of Mertens, Insigne, Callejon did at Naples and Pedro here) but we were definitely more compact as a team and didnt look as open without the ball.

People forget Sarri had 3 years at Napoli and they werent quite as consistent or very good in terms or how they played until the 2nd year which if he got here, as preciously mentioned by Tomo, I think he would have us doing better. I dont think he, Conte or the likes of an Allegri would have us doing worse. We have like 5 wins in 3 months. 

 

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

Did you see how open we were when we lost the ball the first half of the season under Sarri? Even in that 18 game unbeaten run. I mean the Brighton and Arsenal games was a very very early indication of how open we were regardless of the style and how many goals we were scoring because the gaps between the midfield and defence were huge. And he saw this clearly hence why after we struggled for a bit we seemed.to finally click and went on that 15-20 match run in all competitions where we didnt lose.

Cesc said something that he stopped players from midfield making as many forward runs off the ball or something and our attacking play undoubtedly suffered as we didnt have that extra threat (also Hazard, Willian, Morata all at times throughout the season holding onto the ball far too long and didnt have the same selflessness to make runs off the ball in behind teams compared to what the likes of Mertens, Insigne, Callejon did at Naples and Pedro here) but we were definitely more compact as a team and didnt look as open without the ball.

People forget Sarri had 3 years at Napoli and they werent quite as consistent or very good in terms or how they played until the 2nd year which if he got here, as preciously mentioned by Tomo, I think he would have us doing better. I dont think he, Conte or the likes of an Allegri would have us doing worse. We have like 5 wins in 3 months. 

Yes, I remember but Sarri did take it to the extreme with the sterile possession. Things only got interesting at times in the second half of the season when Loftus-Cheek and CHO provided some directness into the team. Otherwise, it was just endless passing without any attacking intent whatsoever. 

[SUNZ 155]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

This is Lampard's defensive record as a manager:

97 games

21 clean sheets

127 goals conceded

He might not have had any world class defenders but you can only blame individuals for so long. Like you said, we weren't great defensively last season but this season, it's a whole new level of shocking! And our defence lost only Luiz last summer but saw James and Tomori added into the team. Not much difference in the choices but the collective defending has been shambolic a lot of the times!

Lampard (and his staff) clearly cannot coach the team to be organised and solid off the ball. Yes we have bad defenders etc but the lack of good coaching only compounds the problem. He chops and changes the defenders and formation because he is merely gambling and hoping something works. He sticks with something until it fails and then he's on to the next formation and CB pairing until that fails and so on. It is rubbish management and I have seen right through his actions.

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

No one is saying Conte was wrong to wanting upgrades on the squad but let's not pretend like every target he wanted then were top quality. This is also the same manager who wanted Fernando Llorente for example.

Won't necessarily disagree with you on Sandro but given he hasn't pulled up any trees between then and now, I won't say it was a big blow we didn't get him but he would likely have been an upgrade on Alonso/Emerson. Don't think it was wrong to question Bonucci based on what I said previously. Candreva may have been consistent but that doesn't mean he was (or is) top quality. Even average players can be consistent.

Did you say this back then or did you just come up with this theory all of a sudden? Conte gave up that season simply because he didn't get what he wanted. The board deserved criticism for not backing him then but it was still no reason for him to just give up. It was still the same squad that won the league in the previous season and he always found ways then to fix problems. Conte just didn't care anymore after in 2018 because he didn't get what he wanted, like a small kid who had his toys taken away from him. 

Fernando Llorente is a striker. Not a defender. The discussion was Conte not trusting his defenders. 

That summer we were heavily linked with Sandro, Van Dijk, Bonucci, and Candreva. At the time, all upgrades on defenders/wing backs we currently had, so it was clear Conte didn't trust his defenders. 

I think I've been pretty vocal since I've been here how even towards the end of our title winning season, it was clear Alonso and Moses needed to be upgraded on. After the Spurs defeat in January that season, it was really when clubs first figured out how to combat the 343. Put pressure on our wing backs to keep them pinned, and have wingers exploit the space that's between the wing back and the centre back. We didn't have the personal to cope with that, hence the amount of shithousery we saw that 2018 season. 

 

 

 

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

This is Lampard's defensive record as a manager:
97 games
21 clean sheets
127 goals conceded
He might not have had any world class defenders but you can only blame individuals for so long. Like you said, we weren't great defensively last season but this season, it's a whole new level of shocking! And our defence lost only Luiz last summer but saw James and Tomori added into the team. Not much difference in the choices but the collective defending has been shambolic a lot of the times!

Exactly. 2 seasons of football are showing an extremely clear pattern. It's a glaring weakness. If he stays at Chelsea he needs an assistant that can coach the defence like when we had Steve Clarke

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[Supermonkey92 1,428]

We won epl with azpi Luiz Cahill at the back. 

Conte is an amazing coach. One of the best we've ever had

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[Vytis33 1,261]

I'm not even sure how to rate these players anymore to be honest.  Every game seems like a different setup.  Think somebody said we had 9 different back lines in front of Kepa and we're ready to bin him.  Your guess is as good as mine at this point I suppose...