The Mourinho Thread

[Stingray 9,441]

To be fair. what is the chicken and what the egg.

Is Mata not being played because he is out of form or is he out of form due to not being played. I feel a lot of Mata critiques tend to forget the fact that even the best can be woeful out of form when treated in conditions as he is now. Confederations cup rested, not playing coming in unfit in a team still having no clue where to go. I do think it is genuinely too easy to ostracize Mata and put the cause in his shoes. Don't even bring confidence into this matter. Let's see what a shattering of it has done to other greatnesses in the past. Examples galore, really.

I refuse to do that because he was also pivotal in a team that won the CL and EL. Even then he got awarded. I do agree he is not a true Messi/Ronaldo star but he has every qualifications of being a very, very good player that merits more than he had coming now.

I will ask again: what is the causal chain: is Mata being subbed because he is bad or is he bad because he is being subbed (and/or not played earlier). The way it seems to me now, the whole Mata argument is a self fullfilling prophecy. We think he is bad, we don't play him; Ow you see he lacks rhythm and fitness: I told you he is bad, Didn't I!?

Please.

[Fernando 6,585]

Chelsea's Jose Mourinho hints style of football owner Abramovich wants to see is to blame for their woes

This is what I was referring to.

Mourinho is not good for an attacking team. He wants a counter attacking team, but the owner does not want that.

This looks like it's going to be another long drama!

[GodZola 630]

Just 2 games ago the world and his brother were creaming over our superb performance against the EC who happen to be a top class side and worthy Champion's league winners, we created numerous chances against them and payed the penalty - no pun intended! We should of thumped Everton and had the game in the bag by the time Basel got involved so its not hard to pin point our current problem, yet the ignorance and impatience currently shown by some fans have left me shell (sorry!) shocked. The annoying thing is, its not just jonny-come-latelys either that are bashing jose already, I heard a few on the radio last night wanting jose out?!! Ffs after just a couple of defeats (which we should of won) fickle fans that have supported the club through years of shit are saying this, unfucking-believable. I hope these so called fans fuckoff and find another club to whine about.

Do I think jose is making mistakes? Yep, I sure do.

Do I think he will get it right? Absolutely, think it will take longer than most are expecting - this is a very young side with huge potential that along the way we will have to replace some legends (yet to replace Drogba) but once this team hits the high notes we can dominate again, one good win and the fickle fans will be changing their tune.

Let's give the man time to build a dynasty, judge him at the end of the season not after 2 defeats ffs, my belief it will be some time next season when this team will gel but I hope I'm wrong off course.

[Tomo 21,751]

Rather than developing our own like Arsenal have done with the likes of Walcott, Gibbs, Ramsey, Wilshere, Jenkinson

So you slate our board for "stockpiling talent" yet 3 of those 5 players were brought by Arsenal.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Seriously, he's been a good manager, but how can you back that up with facts. What makes him so much better than other top managers?

He did two crazy things as a manager: he won the CL with Porto, and he won it again with Inter.

-At Chelsea, he had the absolute best squad in the league. Only Man Utd came close, and they beat him in the final.

-At inter, he had the absolute best squad in Italy, all the other major teams were recovering from the scandals.

=> Winning national titles with these teams is something nearly every decent manager would have been able to do.

-At Real, he had a phenomenal squad. Just look at the bench they had, most of those players would have started in nearly every English team.

Well, he made them play like shit most of the time. Sorry to say it, but it's true. Every time he played a good team, he made them play defensively, which didn't really matter against Barça for example, because I remember a sound 5-0 defeat. He just can't seem to come up with good tactics on how an offensive team should play.

Once again, i'm not saying he's a bad manager, he's one of the best of his time, but a lot of the buzz of him being viewed as "the special one" was created and strengthened by himself, being the funny guy during interviews, always acting like he's confident, creating news, creating feuds... If you look through that, you'll see that he only won 1 or 2 decent trophies in a 3 year Real run (where he was able to buy almost every player he wanted), and that he was practically spit out by what's almost the entire team near the end...

Mourinho has the record points in england

Mourinho has the record points and record goals in spain(for someone people claim plays defensive football)

Mancini had a better inter team than mourinho and did fuck all with inter in europe

Mourinho's inter beat barcelona, bayern, chelsea on the way to the champs league.

Mourinho won a treble with porto and inter. Only a ghost goal against liverpool stopped us from getting to the champs league final to try win a trebble

Mourinho with madrid met barcelona, the greatest team in the world at that time (don't even try to deny this), took time but got the best out of his players till they had an almost perfect season 2011/2012. They lost to bayern munich on penalties in the semifinals

Mourinho beat barca 4 times in his final season with madrid, but I'm sure we'll only remember the period where the dressing room quarreled with mourinho over an inferior player to diego lopez. Which led to a poor season, with ronaldo saying "I'm sad" and political campaign for perez behind the scenes which distracted the first half of their season.

Madrid never got to the semifinals in 7years, mourinho made madrid feared once again. Pellegrini was there and did fuck all but people will only remember mourinho since he's easy to criticize him.

No coach has gone into more semifinals and finals in just a short time than mourinho in the champs league. (That is a massive proof of his ability)

Mourinho gets the best out of his teams, its a gift he has. Let us witness it in time before people gun him down here.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

This is what I was referring to.

Mourinho is not good for an attacking team. He wants a counter attacking team, but the owner does not want that.

This looks like it's going to be another long drama!

I dont know about abrahimovic but i absolutely dread possession football. I dont like it at all, too slow and boring *coughs* *spain*. I prefer counter attack system and quick runners and fast football.

Madrid 2011/2012 and dortmund are perfect.

If we play like this, im sure most of our fans will absolutely love it without complain

[The Mak 4,459]

To be fair. what is the chicken and what the egg.

Is Mata not being played because he is out of form or is he out of form due to not being played. I feel a lot of Mata critiques tend to forget the fact that even the best can be woeful out of form when treated in conditions as he is now. Confederations cup rested, not playing coming in unfit in a team still having no clue where to go. I do think it is genuinely too easy to ostracize Mata and put the cause in his shoes. Don't even bring confidence into this matter. Let's see what a shattering of it has done to other greatnesses in the past. Examples galore, really.

I refuse to do that because he was also pivotal in a team that won the CL and EL. Even then he got awarded. I do agree he is not a true Messi/Ronaldo star but he has every qualifications of being a very, very good player that merits more than he had coming now.

I will ask again: what is the causal chain: is Mata being subbed because he is bad or is he bad because he is being subbed (and/or not played earlier). The way it seems to me now, the whole Mata argument is a self fullfilling prophecy. We think he is bad, we don't play him; Ow you see he lacks rhythm and fitness: I told you he is bad, Didn't I!?

Please.

Thank you Stingray.

I'm pretty sure it's obvious some posters are blatantly biased towards Oscar in this matter, but that is neither here nor there.

I'm no expert, but I'm sure there's a difference between 'fitness' and 'match fitness'. If someone is fully fit it doesn't mean they are necessarily 100%. They also have to be psychologically ready/healthy. They can be as fit as they like but if they're head isn't in the game, if they're not mentally sharp, not acute to their new surroundings/teammates or if they simply have no confidence; they're going to be affected. Because of that, they can look like headless chickens and therefore labelled as simply 'unfit'. Mentally perhaps, yes.

Don't get me wrong, if Mata is still physically unfit then sure it's going to affect his play, no doubt. Therefore Oscar should be played more. But I think it's also fair to say that Mata isn't going to get any 'match fitness' by sitting on the bench now is he?

To use a more recent example: Rooney.

I have to say, as much as I was against having him here, he looks as if he's coming into a fine bit of form. However, he did look average in his first few matches. Even against us; he ran around quite a bit for someone who may have been labelled as 'unfit' but he never really did anything against of note. He wasn't quite 'match fit' at the time (Perhaps because his head was turned ever so slightly?). He looks match fit now though and I'm pretty sure he didn't pick up his form from sitting on the bench...

I'll stop now before I start confusing myself!

[Tomo 21,751]

Now people who think Mourinho can't work with these players just ask yourself's one thing.

Benitez at Liverpool was beyond cautious in matches, played machine like football. he pretty much played the same type of football we did under Jose last time but obviously nowhere near as good as we did.

At Valencia he had different type of players, and were one of the most under-rated teams on the planet, i remember when we had our group stage draw in 2003 and i was honestly terrified off getting them, they were so good. I remember them beating Liverpool (ironically) 2-0 at the Mestialla under Rafa and it was one of the most complete performances i have seen, they teared the Scousers apart.

With us Rafa didn't play anything like his Liverpool teams, he adapted to what he had.

What im trying to say is if Rafa adapt's to the personnel, why on earth can't Jose?

[communicate 2,703]

To be fair. what is the chicken and what the egg.

Is Mata not being played because he is out of form or is he out of form due to not being played. I feel a lot of Mata critiques tend to forget the fact that even the best can be woeful out of form when treated in conditions as he is now. Confederations cup rested, not playing coming in unfit in a team still having no clue where to go. I do think it is genuinely too easy to ostracize Mata and put the cause in his shoes. Don't even bring confidence into this matter. Let's see what a shattering of it has done to other greatnesses in the past. Examples galore, really.

I refuse to do that because he was also pivotal in a team that won the CL and EL. Even then he got awarded. I do agree he is not a true Messi/Ronaldo star but he has every qualifications of being a very, very good player that merits more than he had coming now.

I will ask again: what is the causal chain: is Mata being subbed because he is bad or is he bad because he is being subbed (and/or not played earlier). The way it seems to me now, the whole Mata argument is a self fullfilling prophecy. We think he is bad, we don't play him; Ow you see he lacks rhythm and fitness: I told you he is bad, Didn't I!?

Please.

Good post. I am quite surprised that people want Mata to play because Oscar is in really good form right now and we have not figured it out how to make them play well I.

We also conceded goal just a few minutes after Mata came in. I thought the goal was kinda Mata fault.

[English Freak 456]

Now people who think Mourinho can't work with these players just ask yourself's one thing.

Benitez at Liverpool was beyond cautious in matches, played machine like football. he pretty much played the same type of football we did under Jose last time but obviously nowhere near as good as we did.

At Valencia he had different type of players, and were one of the most under-rated teams on the planet, i remember when we had our group stage draw in 2003 and i was honestly terrified off getting them, they were so good. I remember them beating Liverpool (ironically) 2-0 at the Mestialla under Rafa and it was one of the most complete performances i have seen, they teared the Scousers apart.

With us Rafa didn't play anything like his Liverpool teams, he adapted to what he had.

What im trying to say is if Rafa adapt's to the personnel, why on earth can't Jose?

Rafa adapting to the personnel at Chelsea was made easier because of the lack of options in our squad.

What I mean is that, Rafa had a small squad to work with and because all the players understood their roles, they played relatively well.

But now, we have three new attacking midfielders, and a new striker who are only starting to bond with the rest of the squad.

It's going to take time for José to adapt to his players, I just hope we don't see too many more disappointing losses.

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

To both of you. If it´s about competing for places & I agree let the best player win it, Oscar pretty much nailed it down, then Mata is not going to play at all ?

Lol obviously Mata will get to play.Do you really expect Oscar to continue on playing every game of the season?At the moment,Mata's role in the team is minimum just because his competitor is doing far better than him.There is no need to worry at all.If there is one player we should really about then its Cesar.

[Barbara 15,149]

My point with Mata was to illustrate this thread... there are 10 criticizing Mou for not playing Mata and then another 10 criticizing for him playing Mata. Which is why I said somehow it's become a lose-lose situation for José. I personally want him to give Mata minutes, but once we're clearly in control (score wise) of the match because obviously Mata is far from his best and he may cost us matches.

It doesn't need to an Einstein to know that Mata is unfit because he missed most pre-season!!!!!!! He's not unfit because he's not playing now, he's unfit because he wasn't playing then . Mourinho now has to choose between recovering a player as the season progresses or choosing the best 11 to play. If he chooses Mata and it compromises the result - sometimes it will, sometimes it won't - and then we lose then all impatient 'football fans' will come here criticize him because the team lost! If he doesn't play him they'll come here say he is unfit because he isn't playing now.

But let's hear it from the real specialist? Go read what Terry said during pre-season explaining how difficult it is for a player to make up for the lost pre-season time during regular season... maybe coming from a professional people will understand (or give credit)... This is what Mata is going through now and again it can't be that hard to understand, but then again given what I've read in this page, I guess it is . Mourinho didn't play Mata nonstop for 2 years, didn't injure him during pre-season and is trying to give him minutes to find form. Except that the minutes Mata needed this week clearly cost us the result. He's slower than usual, he isn't as accurate, he isn't creating anything and he's his usual useless self when it comes to defense. The man is only human, it's not because he is bad, it's because he's unfit because he missed preparation time because he was injured and also because he had longer vacation because he played Confed Cup. It's a domino effect, one thing led to the next and so on and on and now we have official matches, he's miles behind any of the players in terms of fitness and it's showing during the matches he took part.

I couldn't care less if Oscar plays or not, I like Oscar just like I like many others. I'm not into international football - I've watched 3 Brazil NT matches this whole year: two in Confeds Cup and one friendly. That's how much I care about International football seeing as I didn't miss one Chelsea match in 2013. Not one because when we played the same time Madrid played, I chose Chelsea. Unlike so many here, I'm a Chelsea fan, not a Brazil fan or a Brazilian player's fan. We could bench all the brazilian and I wouldn't give a chip because I.don't.care. I care about Chelsea and although I'm a huge Mourinho fan, if he isn't the manager for us as so many seemed so convinced, then I'll join the choir and will ask for a new manager. The difference between us is that I'll do that after at least two seasons. This season is transitional I said this too many times, so I'm willing to give him this season and demand results from the next one on. Then if the next one he fails as well, I'm all for a new manager. Go see if I'm voting on Oscar every MOTM poll unlike some people voting for Hazard who had one good game (nothing brilliant though) and the rest were either okay or poor. Go see if I voted for Luiz or Ramires in all those polls. I want the best for Chelsea, if that's Oscar good, if it's Mata great, if it's my mother fantastic. I couldn't care less if Oscar, another Brazilian or whoever else plays... I know there are plenty of new fans who came because of players from their countries. Don't put all of us in the same mix. I started supporting this team when there was no Brazilian playing there and I won't stop supporting it in a couple of years when maybe the Brazilians will have left.

The annoying thing is the lack of patience and unfairness in all this judgment so early in the season - and I'm so happy to have read posts by @Tomo, @Kojo, @GodZola and @kellzfresh, saying basically the same thing.

[-Kaplan- 410]

If after this many games people can claim we are in a crisis, I am glad; otherwise, we wouldn't be a big team.

Let the word Crisis jump around the media like a kid playing hopscotch. It really means nothing. Not to CFC fans.

[bluephoenix 1,131]

We need a real striker, the man who can score goals when the opposite team parked their bus. As simple as that.

Too bad we didnt get one on summer

because we were chasing shadows !

It was plain stupid to go behind Rooney, time and again we have known that he is a red devil yet we pursue him when we should have gone for the likes of lewandowski

[bushman 2,043]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/robbie-savage-chelsea-mourinhos-good-2286727

The Savage One, see above.

[English Freak 456]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/robbie-savage-chelsea-mourinhos-good-2286727

The Savage One, see above.

Completely agree with Savage about Lukaku.

Lukaku could have been our super-sub this season...cause the last thing a tired defender wants to see is a physically-gifted young striker come off the bench..

Our strikers simply don't scare the opposition.

[bushman 2,043]

Completely agree with Savage about Lukaku.

Lukaku could have been our super-sub this season...cause the last thing a tired defender wants to see is a physically-gifted young striker come off the bench..

Our strikers simply don't scare the opposition.

In my view, to loan Lukaku was the most stupid deal made by Jose. How many goals does Lukaku need to score to get his chance with Jose the Desperate One ?

[TrippingStep 336]

I'm quoting you because I've been out the whole day and I have to leave again in less than an hour, and this caught my attention - among many other things.

What have we won with the 3 amigos and Benitez?

So let's bring both things back and win Europa League again, lose all cups and finish 2 digits behind ManUtd - when Rafa started his job we were only 4pts behind Utd.

It's simple like that. We want Mata to play? Let's bring back Drogba to win a lucky UCL for us, finish SIXTH in EPL, but at least also bagging a FA cup title.

My point is if we had been brilliant before Mourinho, I would get some of the things I read, but we were mediocre through and through.

(now the rest of this post isn't an answer to you, but a general answer, don't remember if it fits some of the things you said because I just read 6-7 pages of posts although many of them I skipped after reading 4-5 words in. So from now on this is a general response)

I said it in his thread and people peeled me off alive - and that was two months ago - Mata was brilliant in a team that couldn't be farther from impressive. Mata shone in a team that technically and creatively was crap. Let's not allow the UCL title to change the fact that for the last two seasons Chelsea's has hardly been competitive at all. Finishing 6th in EPL is an embarrassment bigger than being knocked out in the UCL group stage last year - although the latter is also embarrassing. Finishing 3rd wouldn't be so embarrassing if 1) United wasn't basically 20 points ahead 2) we didn't have to fight until the last second to finish ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham. Don't people remember that? We haven't been a competitive team in the last two seasons. Say all you want, we weren't. Players gave their lives in the UCL, some players won that title for us, we weren't the best, the second, the third, not even the fourth best team in 2012 when we won it, but that's football and I accept that the best doesn't always win - especially in knock out competitions.

The competitions that will show how competitive is a team will always be the national leagues because that's about consistency. Losing or a winning a match out of luck will get you through the next stage in a knock-out competition and sometimes even the title. In the leagues it will get you 3 points - winning or losing them. So all the people here claiming that Mata should be played - because he must be the best player ever born; that Benitez, Robbie or whoever were better than Mourinho, or that Mourinho is destroying the team, do you forget we have been nothing but MEDIOCRE for the past two seasons? And don't give me other names of managers that had never been here because until they are here and prove they can win, they're just your wishful thinking!!!!!

I'm pissed beyond limits at all the bullshit I keep reading in this thread and in others. I'm going to come back and quote all of the impatient as heck, unfair as shit, overreacting as fuck people when Mourinho has finally found the best formation and philosophy to this team. I don't know how long it'll take, and if it takes too long - like 6 months, maybe I won't have the chance to have this convo with some people because by then who knows if they'll still be Chelsea fans...

Also, Mourinho is making mistakes - some of them justifiable some not. A lot of you are begging him to play Mata - I'm begging him not to play Mata unless the match is won. He played Mata yesterday, it cost us the match. But somehow he's still being criticized - even if he did what so many people criticized him about... Maybe he'll start Mata against Fulham - I hope he doesn't - and if we lose the frigging match don't come here to say crap because like it or not, Mata is costing us matches not because he's crap - he isn't - but because he's completely unfit! Playing with him sometimes feel like playing with 10 or against 12 in matches like yesterday where he kept giving the ball away.

Also, of course there's the possibility that some of you are right and Mourinho isn't the right person to work this team, and maybe you'll be right at the end of the season - and not me - and by then he wouldn't still have found a system that works. Then you'll be right and I'll be wrong. It doesn't change the fact that one month and six official matches is still too early for the reactions all over this forum. Six matches mean nothing in the long term... I would totally understand - and I would probably take part of the criticism - if this was happening four months in because four months is more than enough to give a team some shape. but it's been just a bit over four weeks and the overreaction and knee-jerk reaction is so overboard that I wonder... never mind.

The first two months of Benitez were shaky, the end of the Di Matteo reigns was a team knackered that were leaking goals.

But I don't agree we were mediocre in the last three four months under Benitez. Against Swansea, Ivanovic costed us the first game and we should have scored in the first 30 minutes when we were much better and creating good chances with good movements. We were in control of that match and their only opportuniteis were gifted to them. Swansea is a very good team and very difficult to play when motivated.

The second match agains West Ham was a demoliton and we didn't had the problems we had on the first match with us being beaten on the second ball after a Carroll touch.

We played some very brilliant football against Arsenal, Manchester United, Wigan (neutralizing their game plan and countering them at will), Tottenham. Look at how we responded against Manchester early goals in the fa cup, we chased the game and pushed them without being countered easily. Not putting long balls like we have done this year against Everton and Basel where we gave huge countering chances and could have leaked more goals.

Honestly, don't you think that with Benitez in charge, two midfielders for the pivot that were suited for his system, a striker that we wouldn't be challenging for the title this year. Benitez didn't have the midfielders that he would want but he still manage to have the team play decent football, have a balance and being dangerous when we attack without being inept defensively.

And in a season when we played 70 matches.

Dortmund trashed Real last year, always being in command.

Real had difficulties to beat Manchester United and were not very imaginative to mess a Manchester United defense just sitting deep.

I maintain that Mourinho is not a coach for a squad where the best players are suited for team controlling the possession, dictating play.

[Krypt 241]

The Lukaku situation is a tough one. Yes he would be great for us coming off the bench and being a game changer , but is that what he needs right now ? No he needs to play regular somthing we cannot unfortunately for whatever reason offer him here. Ideally a shorter loan would have been better then we could have him back in the new year if he had been banging in the goals.

[Special Juan 28,146]

In Jose I and we trust.

Talk of sacking right now and you are ready for the mad house and shackles.