The Mourinho Thread

[OneMoSalah 8,885]

Just now, MichaelDance said:

I'm not going to argue with you any more but who's bigger a DIRECTOR or a MANAGER? If I own a company the board is higher than any member of staff from managers to employees, or do you live in a different world to me?

So how does that have anything to do with why we needed to sack Emenalo in favor of a stubborn, self centered manager who lost the dressing room and had tried to blame the players after the Leicester game for 'betraying his instructions' when his relationship with a lot of players had deteriorated?

People seem to think Jose is more important than Chelsea FC itself, when in fact its not and you just need to look at how happier everyone is now he isn't in charge. 

[Tomo 21,751]

18 minutes ago, MichaelDance said:

Then I question you why was Sir Alex Ferguson & Arsene Wenger not sacked when they had a bad run of games, and Arsene still hasn't won a good trophy (minus the FA cup) I mean BPL and Europe.... Because on your logic they would have been out the door long ago.

Did Wenger ever end up flirting with the relegation places (beyond the table taking shape period)? Since 2005 Arsenal board have only demanded top four if Wenger and in that respect he has delivered every time.

Fergie on the other hand is a completely different era, he is also a complete one off, just because Fergie worked given time doesn't mean everyone else will.

Furthermore if Sir Alex in the modern era ever had a five month period like Jose just did I thinkeven he would be sweating for his job, some United fans thought it was time for a change in the mid 00s, I can't imagine the same fans would think differently under those circumstances.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

11 minutes ago, Mana said:

Sir Alex and Wenger never put their respective clubs 1 point above relegation zone in December. Massive, massive difference between consistently getting 4th/not getting CL /and/ getting relegated (and don't try and sugarcoat, we were heading for relegation). 

Also another thing is that Wenger and Sir Alex didn't lose the dressing room. Jose did.

If Chelsea were even 7th in December, he would be still our manager. Because it shows the players are actually playing for the manager, but just having a bad season and we can bounce back next season with Mourinho. 1 point above relegation for a big club like us is 200% unacceptable. Especially when we were just champions last season.

To be honest, how is any manager ever meant to avoid player power here? Drogba and co set a dangerous precedent under past managers that showed a clear Chelsea policy, first in first out. As in, first manager in first manager out. 

Even an ultimate authoritarian like Ferguson would struggle under this model. There is no fear in these guys to be 'sacked', they know who's head the axe falls on every 6-18 months.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

10 minutes ago, Mana said:

Sir Alex can handle it, as shown in late 00's. If a player doesn't want to play for him anymore, he's benched and sold. We saw it with van Nistelrooy and Beckham. Mourinho? Doesn't do it. And gets punished for it. You field the players that want to play for you.

But that's what I mean yo. Ferguson had the ability to pick and choose his transfers, complete control. 

We have to also remember there will never be another Ferguson, so it's a moot comparison. But I still think it's a valid point that these guys simply don't fear the consequences of not turning up 100%. I don't know how that will change, attitudes set can only disappear through action.. Hiring an able coach and not living under a cloud of longevity for the sake of it would be a good fcking start.

[LAM09 7,043]

Mourinho, December 14, 2015: "All last season I did phenomenal work & I brought them to a level that is... more than they really are."

I'm starting to believe he was right.

[Adnane 1,101]

 

4 hours ago, xPetrCechx said:

Hiddink on #CFC hierarchy message: "Get away from the relegation zone — that was what they asked me to do" #CFC (Mail)

Hiddink on #CFC hierarchy message: "And if you can do more and get us to an FA Cup final & Champions League that would be marvellous" (Mail)

This was posted in The Hiddink thread but I am bringing it here because I find it relevant to the Mourinho saga. 

If I understand right, the board were already giving up on the season, and only acted towards Mourinho when things got really, really bad, e.g. one point above relegation zone. 

Does that mean that had Mourinho stayed 14th or 13th for a few additional games, the board would be willing to give him the chance to end the season ? I would like to think so. 

This is really huge if true, the board were ready to give him as much time as he needed and were ready to tolerate a second half of the table finish I guess, but once things got really really messy, they had to act. 

And rightly so, look at the team in the last week, and that was coming after a really good Hiddink spell ( relatively ), just imagine if we were in March with the same methods, team selection and game plan, what could've happened ? 

We'll never know, and i've always defended Mourinho even when we were one point above relegation, but he is as guilty as the board and the players for this nightmare season, and since we can't sack everyone... 

[Adnane 1,101]

7 hours ago, LAM09 said:

 

Mourinho, December 14, 2015: "All last season I did phenomenal work & I brought them to a level that is... more than they really are."

I'm starting to believe he was right.

It's time that people stop misinterpreting this sentence : ( starts at 2:20 )

He is presenting assumptions to answer the question about the players' level : "Or last season i did a phenomenal work brought them to a level that is not their level, or this season we are doing so bad that the players for some reason [...] clearly where for some of them it's so difficult" 

"Or" plays the "whether" role here. ( One of the translations for whether in portuguese is "ou" actually, which is "or" in french, and since he speaks that many languages, you can't blame him for not placing the exact word... )

And if I understand it right, he is trying to imply that it is an extraordinary coincidence that all these players have such dips in form in the same time. 

But of course, all people got from the video was that "All last season I did phenomenal work & I brought them to a level that is... more than they really are"

 

 

[Tomo 21,751]

17 hours ago, LDN Blue said:

To be honest, how is any manager ever meant to avoid player power here? Drogba and co set a dangerous precedent under past managers that showed a clear Chelsea policy, first in first out. As in, first manager in first manager out. 

Even an ultimate authoritarian like Ferguson would struggle under this model. There is no fear in these guys to be 'sacked', they know who's head the axe falls on every 6-18 months.

That was the downside of having so many leaders in a squad, yeah they will beat us through some hard times but if you have so many personalities/leaders in the dressing room with it creates big ego's and that can become a problem with manager's that are "not for them". It's one thing them having the power in their prime but it's another when they were past it, I know they all made ammends with Munich but post double season till then having a bunch of undroppable players hitting father time was a huge problem.

I think with Jose this season it was more than just losing the dressing room, I think relations between him and the team totally broke down to the point of no return, so many single things triggered it, whereas with Scolari and AVB it was more the leaders resisting the methods.

The advantage not having that many leaders and big personalities in this squad will bring for Antonio is that he has practically got a blank canvas, this squad is at a sort of crossroads were we can go any which way in terms of style if play, whereas the 04-12 bunch were so set in their ways we basically couldn't change from the physical, fast counter approach, two managers tried and both failed.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

4 hours ago, Tomo said:

That was the downside of having so many leaders in a squad, yeah they will beat us through some hard times but if you have so many personalities/leaders in the dressing room with it creates big ego's and that can become a problem with manager's that are "not for them". It's one thing them having the power in their prime but it's another when they were past it, I know they all made ammends with Munich but post double season till then having a bunch of undroppable players hitting father time was a huge problem.

I think with Jose this season it was more than just losing the dressing room, I think relations between him and the team totally broke down to the point of no return, so many single things triggered it, whereas with Scolari and AVB it was more the leaders resisting the methods.

The advantage not having that many leaders and big personalities in this squad will bring for Antonio is that he has practically got a blank canvas, this squad is at a sort of crossroads were we can go any which way in terms of style if play, whereas the 04-12 bunch were so set in their ways we basically couldn't change from the physical, fast counter approach, two managers tried and both failed.

Yeah I can agree with that. It's like I just said in the Terry thread, it's about time Chelsea dismantled that 2012 winning squad.. They've taken their sweet time about it and when we had players capable of becoming the new long-term core (Lukaku, De Bruyne, etc), Mourinho came and had to have 'his' guys. I think if they were signed when he was in charge, he would have never doubted any of them. 

As for Conte (or whoever) having a blank canvas, yes and no. You've got to hope Roman's doing what Newcastle just did and take apart the outdated 'we sign players before you even arrive' policy and see if the manager's ideas match the recruitment. You'd have to hope the powers of Emenalo are curbed, especially when it comes to signing young players straight for the first team. It's all good him taking care of the academy - it's reaping rewards under Hiddink - but first team is beyond his capabilities and Pato/Falcao proves that.

[LAM09 7,043]

It's time that people stop misinterpreting this sentence : ( starts at 2:20 )

He is presenting assumptions to answer the question about the players' level : "Or last season i did a phenomenal work brought them to a level that is not their level, or this season we are doing so bad that the players for some reason [...] clearly where for some of them it's so difficult" 

"Or" plays the "whether" role here. ( One of the translations for whether in portuguese is "ou" actually, which is "or" in french, and since he speaks that many languages, you can't blame him for not placing the exact word... )

And if I understand it right, he is trying to imply that it is an extraordinary coincidence that all these players have such dips in form in the same time. 

But of course, all people got from the video was that "All last season I did phenomenal work & I brought them to a level that is... more than they really are"

 

 

That might be the case, but sentiment is still the same. Mou's gone and the majority of the squad haven't improved. That's why the specific statement/comment seems plausible.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

I think he did do phenomenal work and got them playing above their level.  It was above the level of the team before he got here, so why wouldn't that be true?  (I do agree with the 

I think he does burn a squad out though.  He likes a settled XI with very little rotation, but more importantly, I think he burns them out mentally.

Jose has a huge chip on his shoulder, all the time.  He gets the siege mentality going and looks for slights to keep the fire burning.  I just think that the players can maintain that too.  They won the league and couldn't get that same intensity going.  He's been obsessed with Pep and beating Pep since being turned down for the Barca job.  His play became even more defensive and anti-Barca.  He's still obsessed with it.  I just don't think that most players can keep a grudge for as long as he does.

[Blue_Fox_ 2,086]

28 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

He's still obsessed with it.  I just don't think that most players can keep a grudge for as long as he does.

He should manage women football. Ba dum tssss.



Sorry.

[Essien19 1,415]

1 hour ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

I think he did do phenomenal work and got them playing above their level.  It was above the level of the team before he got here, so why wouldn't that be true?  (I do agree with the 

I think he does burn a squad out though.  He likes a settled XI with very little rotation, but more importantly, I think he burns them out mentally.

Jose has a huge chip on his shoulder, all the time.  He gets the siege mentality going and looks for slights to keep the fire burning.  I just think that the players can maintain that too.  They won the league and couldn't get that same intensity going.  He's been obsessed with Pep and beating Pep since being turned down for the Barca job.  His play became even more defensive and anti-Barca.  He's still obsessed with it.  I just don't think that most players can keep a grudge for as long as he does.

Would be fun to see him back in La Liga, sooner than later.
Perhaps at a small team and then going after the big guns, especially Barcelona.
Barcelona will never touch him again, bridges were burned, but hunting these cunts week in and week out, like a little bee, buzz, buzz, buzz, always around their ears and coming up with little digs, man, that would be fun, but not healthy for Jose, mhh.

[robsblubot 3,595]

People are still blaming mourinho really?!

then Jose can do no right, can he? I mean he's been gone forever and aside from putting a smile in some of the most mediocre players we've got, we've been playing pretty much the same shit as before - just as unwatchable.

let me put it in perspective: Everton, a pretty bad side on their own, spanked us because they are better than us. That's how bad we are.

Do people miss mata really ?! Being wrong about Oscar does not make him wrong about mata. Juan mata imo does not belong in the elite - simple.

finally, would it matter if we were 2or 3 places lower in the standings because it would have taken the players longer to realize they would have to suffer through him?

i know someone will come here and say we would have dropped, but how do you know that? We were not in relegation and would not be had Jose stayed.

who knows he might even have produced a less naive starting xi against psg.

the truth is that Jose did make the same set of players play better, last season, than they have lately. Can you claim that hiddink would have been able to accomplish the same? Why have we stagnated? Why have we even regressed then?

im far from a Jose fan, but boy I don't understand how Hiddnk gets a free pass from taking a set of very expensive players to this mediocrity everybody sees.

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

People are still blaming mourinho really?!

then Jose can do no right, can he? I mean he's been gone forever and aside from putting a smile in some of the most mediocre players we've got, we've been playing pretty much the same shit as before - just as unwatchable.

let me put it in perspective: Everton, a pretty bad side on their own, spanked us because they are better than us. That's how bad we are.

Do people miss mata really ?! Being wrong about Oscar does not make him wrong about mata. Juan mata imo does not belong in the elite - simple.

finally, would it matter if we were 2or 3 places lower in the standings because it would have taken the players longer to realize they would have to suffer through him?

i know someone will come here and say we would have dropped, but how do you know that? We were not in relegation and would not be had Jose stayed.

who knows he might even have produced a less naive starting xi against psg.

the truth is that Jose did make the same set of players play better, last season, than they have lately. Can you claim that hiddink would have been able to accomplish the same? Why have we stagnated? Why have we even regressed then?

im far from a Jose fan, but boy I don't understand how Hiddnk gets a free pass from taking a set of very expensive players to this mediocrity everybody sees.

Basing it purely on this season (as I do believe Jose took us to a level beyond the squad last season) I'm sorry but it's ridiculous to say there's been no difference since Guus took over.

Under Jose in the league we had 15 points in 16 games losing 9 and scoring just 18 goals and were 16th, one point aboverelegation, since Guus took over in the league we have 25 points in 13 games are second in the form table since his arrival and have scored 25 goals, that's a huge difference.

We look better in attacking play aswell, much better and PSG Guus didn't cover himself in glory but Everton didn't batter us, it was a cagey game opened up by one moment of brilliance.

I'm one of Jose's biggest fans and I will say he did brilliant last two season's till I'm blue in the face, but this season he screwed badly and since he's gone there's been a big improvement, still some horrible displays and it was awful going out of two cups in a week, but Guus point return since his arrival is actually title form in this crazy season (75 points will likely win it this season, just under two points a game, which is our form under Hiddink).