AVB gone to Zenit

[Jase 43,479]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:25, CHOULO19 said:

Yes he made a mistake by trying to do the job he was brought in for

Yeah...brought in to do a job which he ultimately failed in the end all because of his own doing to begin with, something that many choose to ignore.

[Rmpr 8,977]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:14, BluesMaster said:

No. AVB is a manager with good-great potential. Don't get all this silly notion coming from people saying he's a great manager. He has the vision, ideas and how he wants to go about things but until he starts translating those into winning trophies consistently, he should and would not be considered a great manager!

AVB is a great manager and I dont get those angry fanboys who cant see it.

Just because he fail at Chelsea (and we got to admit the players didnt help either), it doesnt mean he is bad or all he's got is potential...

[Jase 43,479]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:54, Rmpr said:

AVB is a great manager and I dont get those angry fanboys who cant see it.

Just because he fail at Chelsea (and we got to admit the players didnt help either), it doesnt mean he is bad or all he's got is potential...

How exactly is he a great manager now when his CV is hardly glittering and filled with trophies like the actual great ones?!

He's basically only got 1 year of success so far in his career.

[Rmpr 8,977]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:58, BluesMaster said:

How exactly is he a great manager now when his CV is hardly glittering and filled with trophies like the actual great ones?!

He's basically only got 1 year of success so far in his career.

You dont messure quality by CV. You are acting just like Benitez, who has an impressive CV but is a bad coach in reality. Besides, AVB has a good CV for his age and experience!

You only need to follow him closely to see he has a very good eye for talent, knows his tactics brilliantly and has drastically improved his man management and motivation. All qualities more than essential to a great manager.

You may be confusing what I said. I never said the Portuguese was one of the best in the world, all I said is that he is a great coach (which is true). For instance, if we asked people to do a list of the top 10-15 managers in activity, AVB would make most people's list...

Definitely a great manager, no doubt!

[Jase 43,479]

  On 25/06/2013 at 22:34, Rmpr said:

You dont messure quality by CV. You are acting just like Benitez, who has an impressive CV but is a bad coach in reality. Besides, AVB has a good CV for his age and experience!

You only need to follow him closely to see he has a very good eye for talent, knows his tactics brilliantly and has drastically improved his man management and motivation. All qualities more than essential to a great manager.

You may be confusing what I said. I never said the Portuguese was one of the best in the world, all I said is that he is a great coach (which is true). For instance, if we asked people to do a list of the top 10-15 managers in activity, AVB would make most people's list...

Definitely a great manager, no doubt!

Not doubting he has the qualities but there is no point having that if he can't back it up with trophies. It is that that makes a manager a true great manager. Right now, people describing AVB as a great manager is just a loose description. To say he's a great manager at this point in time is rather over-exaggerating it. Good manager? Yes. Great manager? No.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

If AVB is a "great" manager for winning with that Porto team, then so is Guardiola for inheriting the best Barcelona and Bayern sides in their respective histories.

Andre certainly has potential and I would love him to have a long and successful career (provided it isn't in England), but to call him "great" when he only has two full seasons under his belt is premature in my view.

[Rmpr 8,977]

  On 25/06/2013 at 22:44, BluesMaster said:

Not doubting he has the qualities but there is no point having that if he can't back it up with trophies. It is that that makes a manager a true great manager. Right now, people describing AVB as a great manager is just a loose description. To say he's a great manager at this point in time is rather over-exaggerating it. Good manager? Yes. Great manager? No.

Wrong!

AVB, has a quite impressive number of trophies and acomplishments for a manager wirh 4 seasons. Just compare it with to any of the top manager's first 3-4 years of their career. So, by your standards, AVB is indeed a great manager.

  On 25/06/2013 at 23:39, Alex said:

If AVB is a "great" manager for winning with that Porto team, then so is Guardiola for inheriting the best Barcelona and Bayern sides in their respective histories.

Andre certainly has potential and I would love him to have a long and successful career (provided it isn't in England), but to call him "great" when he only has two full seasons under his belt is premature in my view.

That is rather naive (to be polite). Both, Pep and Andre are great managers!

AVB built that Porto team, so I dont see how you can use it as a negative argument to him. Also, he is doing a good job with Spurs and will obviously improve next season...

About Pep, one that cant see the difference in Barcelona of 2008 and Tito's Barça to Guardiola's 2009-2012 team simply doesnt know anything about football. One can argue that he wouldnt win half of what he did if he had a 'normal' team, which I agree. You can also call him a coward or whatever for choosing this fantastic Bayern Minich squad. But to say he isnt a great manager is just insulting...

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Maybe you two are just being way too critical because you dont like them.

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:00, CHOULO19 said:

AVB who was, for me, rightly trying to replace them (Don't even try to mention the "bad man-management skills" BS). For me AVB is on a completely different level because he is superior tactically.

Looking back in hindsight AVB went about it all wrong. He didn't even need to have great man management just some idea on how to manage human being's. The Rafa reign completely disproved the theory that the players were at fault, i mean Benitez isn't known for his cuddly man management but managed to avoid causing a dressing room riot.

He started by insisting he would access his squad, then at some point in the season changed his mind and decided he wanted out of any one over 28.

You are right that AVB has the potential to be a great manager (it was the reason i wanted him to stay) but he went about it all wrong at Chelsea, all wrong. Anyway AVB got something out of it, he got a Champions League medal through the post, god knows what he's done with it

[Sheva. 5,373]

  On 26/06/2013 at 00:45, Rmpr said:

AVB built that Porto team,

Managers don't sign players at Porto, so not sure how he built the team.

The fact they lost Hulk and Falcao and still managed to win the league says a lot about their scouting system - buy ridiculously cheap, sell ridiculously high lol.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 26/06/2013 at 00:45, Rmpr said:

Wrong!

AVB, has a quite impressive number of trophies and acomplishments for a manager wirh 4 seasons. Just compare it with to any of the top manager's first 3-4 years of their career. So, by your standards, AVB is indeed a great manager.

No. My point is calling him a great manager at the moment is over-stretching it. He may have won 3 trophies in the space of 4 seasons but as Alex pointed out, he only had 2 full seasons at a club so far. How can you say with definite that he's a great manager just over this short period of time? I mean we all banged about how a manager, team, player(s) should be judged over a long period of time but why is AVB being called a great manager so fast? He still needs to prove himself over the long term to even be considered one. If he wins 5-6 trophies over the 8-10 years, then fair enough. Maybe you can call him that. But if he win like only 1-2 trophies or even none in that same period, then would you still be calling him a great manager?

  On 26/06/2013 at 00:45, Rmpr said:

Maybe you two are just being way too critical because you dont like them.

Seriously, that kind of argument is just tiresome. Just because we are supposedly 'being way too critical' of AVB (or any players for that matter), that doesn't mean we don't like him. We are just looking at things objectively. And if you are gonna say we are being too critical of AVB because we don't like him, I could also turn around and say you guys are being so praiseful and way too complimenting because you love AVB so much.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

  On 26/06/2013 at 00:45, Rmpr said:

That is rather naive (to be polite). Both, Pep and Andre are great managers!

AVB built that Porto team, so I dont see how you can use it as a negative argument to him. Also, he is doing a good job with Spurs and will obviously improve next season...

About Pep, one that cant see the difference in Barcelona of 2008 and Tito's Barça to Guardiola's 2009-2012 team simply doesnt know anything about football. One can argue that he wouldnt win half of what he did if he had a 'normal' team, which I agree. You can also call him a coward or whatever for choosing this fantastic Bayern Minich squad. But to say he isnt a great manager is just insulting...

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Maybe you two are just being way too critical because you dont like them.

'Great' is a very subjective term. Sir Alex Ferguson is a 'great' manager.

For me, Villas-Boas is doing the right thing by going to a club that will challenge him. Chelsea was too big a step. As for Guardiola, I am a cynical bastard and to me, him choosing Bayern is another easy job. Those players can manage themselves. It's like saying Avram Grant did a great job, whereas in truth he inherited from Mourinho the greatest squad in our history, and, in truth, it was down to the Drogbas, Lampards, Terrys, and Ballacks who led the team.

Villas-Boas has the potential to be a good manager. Guardiola, well, the jury is still out on him until he goes and challenges himself somewhere.

I'm not being disrespectful at all. I just think people are finding it fashionable to suddenly like Villas-Boas, whereas 15 months ago people were cursing him. As for Guardiola, he's a lovely person and was a very good player. Sure, you measure managers at big clubs by success and you see he has won an incredible haul of trophies, but I don't think either the Barcelona or Bayern job will define him as a coach.

That is my opinion. To say I don't "know anything about football" - that is disrespectful. It's a difference in opinion. Deal with it.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 25/06/2013 at 21:29, BluesMaster said:

Yeah...brought in to do a job which he ultimately failed in the end all because of his own doing to begin with, something that many choose to ignore.

No he failed to do it because Lampard and co decided to be absolute cunts and put their own best interest ahead of that of the club. Now AVB made a lot of mistakes tactically but ultimately he, and the club, failed because of the players. How is it the manager's fault if Frank and Ashley start wasting time when we are losing to Everton?!

  On 26/06/2013 at 00:56, Tomo said:

Looking back in hindsight AVB went about it all wrong. He didn't even need to have great man management just some idea on how to manage human being's. The Rafa reign completely disproved the theory that the players were at fault, i mean Benitez isn't known for his cuddly man management but managed to avoid causing a dressing room riot.

He started by insisting he would access his squad, then at some point in the season changed his mind and decided he wanted out of any one over 28.

You are right that AVB has the potential to be a great manager (it was the reason i wanted him to stay) but he went about it all wrong at Chelsea, all wrong. Anyway AVB got something out of it, he got a Champions League medal through the post, god knows what he's done with it

I'm sorry but I am very 'old-fashioned' about this player-manager relationship and for me, it is very simple: If you are professional football player getting paid 100+k/wk to play football you have to do your job which is to shut up and do as your manager says and if you think you be in the starting lineup you work your ass off and prove it in training!

The situation with Benitez was completely different because the group of players that had the power under AVB was broken with departure of some and the shifting of the core of the team to our new players. Besides, JT was injured for the most part of the season under Rafa and even then we heard a lot of reports of bust ups between the two over JT not starting enough games. Lampard was bound to get more playing time after we let Essien and Raul go and he could not afford to moan to the media about not starting in big games because he was on his last year on his contract and was using the fans and media to pressure the board to giving him a new contract.

It's unfair to say that AVB benched anyone over 29; from our last 4 managers he was actually the only one who had the balls to bench Torres for an older Drogba.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 25/06/2013 at 23:39, Alex said:

If AVB is a "great" manager for winning with that Porto team, then so is Guardiola for inheriting the best Barcelona and Bayern sides in their respective histories.

Andre certainly has potential and I would love him to have a long and successful career (provided it isn't in England), but to call him "great" when he only has two full seasons under his belt is premature in my view.

Great is very subjective so I won't argue with you there but what I found very surprising is the claim that RDM is a better manager!

[BlueLion. 21,491]

^ at Chelsea, he was! I can't quite get my head around why people would say otherwise!

Overall there is no doubt Roberto is hardly a world-class manager, but he did a good job at Chelsea! I cried when he was sacked, yet no-one shed a tear when Andre got the boot. That speaks volumes for what each man achieved at this club.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 26/06/2013 at 09:14, CHOULO19 said:

No he failed to do it because Lampard and co decided to be absolute cunts and put their own best interest ahead of that of the club. Now AVB made a lot of mistakes tactically but ultimately he, and the club, failed because of the players. How is it the manager's fault if Frank and Ashley start wasting time when we are losing to Everton?!

The players don't just suddenly decide to be 'absolute cunts' out of nowhere without something or someone triggering it. Early on that season, things were working fine and nothing much was happening but then it began to unravel suddenly come Novermber (about that time). Why? AVB himself has already admitted his mistakes in terms of how he went about things here and yet people are still banging on like he's nowhere at fault for this when he was the person that started this whole debacle with his poor man management skills then in the first place.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 26/06/2013 at 09:24, BluesMaster said:

The players don't just suddenly decide to be 'absolute cunts' out of nowhere without something or someone triggering it. Early on that season, things were working fine and nothing much was happening but then it began to unravel suddenly come Novermber (about that time). Why? AVB himself has already admitted his mistakes in terms of how he went about things here and yet people are still banging on like he's nowhere at fault for this when he was the person that started this whole debacle with his poor man management skills then in the first place.

How he went about things? He chose his best team and set the tactics for his team. The nerve on that guy!

I don't give a shit why the players decided to be cunts, they are getting paid a whole lot of money when they consciously and deliberately put their best interest ahead of that of the team, they take the blame.

  On 26/06/2013 at 09:21, Alex said:

^ at Chelsea, he was! I can't quite get my head around why people would say otherwise!

Overall there is no doubt Roberto is hardly a world-class manager, but he did a good job at Chelsea! I cried when he was sacked, yet no-one shed a tear when Andre got the boot. That speaks volumes for what each man achieved at this club.

Robbie achieved more at Chelsea but in no way was he a better manager. Under him, especially this season, our team lacked any form or system. It were just 11 guys kicking a football around.

And for the record, if you go back to AVB thread last season and the RDM thread this season, the outrage was much much more when Andre was sacked because the club was basically giving in to player power. A lot of people forgot that we were all backing Andre back then:

  On 26/06/2013 at 09:21, +Alex said:

"The Portuguese was also said to be upset that the majority of the squad did not say goodbye or wish him luck."

http://www.mirrorfoo...icle874736.html

If this is true, I really hate our squad. I genuinely feel sad for Villas-Boas. Not just sad, but actually upset and angry. I am a very disappointed fan.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Wow, talk about using quotes out of context! I said that in relation to the players supposedly trying to undermine him, tormenting him and blatantly showing disrespect towards him by not even saying goodbye!

I was sad to see him go for two reasons - he was a nice guy, and we finally had a long-term manager in place. But I think most people would agree, judging on what RDM achieved that season, that it was in the end a vindicated decision.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 26/06/2013 at 09:46, Alex said:

Wow, talk about using quotes out of context! I said that in relation to the players supposedly trying to undermine him, tormenting him and blatantly showing disrespect towards him by not even saying goodbye!

I was sad to see him go for two reasons - he was a nice guy, and we finally had a long-term manager in place. But I think most people would agree, judging on what RDM achieved that season, that it was in the end a vindicated decision.

It was just the first post I saw, there are plenty of other, and the point was you saying that "no one shed a tear" when AVB left when in fact everyone was completely outraged, even more than when Robbie left.

What Robbie and the team achieved had absolutely nothing to do with the decision to sack Andre unless you are implying that the board foresaw that sacking Andre would win us the CL!