Politics & Stuff

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

BBC news has just laughed at “over decorated” N Korean generals.

Have they never noticed the dozens of medals Charles, Prince Phillip and now William and all the other parasites wear over here for doing fuck all ??

Perhaps the BBC should reserve a few sneers for the meaningless bling dripping off the so called ''royals''.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Atm, there are just over half a million in Lebanon, and a few million in each of Syria and Jordan.

The difference is that people choose to leave because of wars and thus become refugees. In Palestine, those people were literally forced out of their homes so those houses could be demolished and replaced houses that were to be occupied by people that were 'imported' from Europe. I've never heard that happening elsewhere.

I won't get into the complicated political reasons that would probably take several books to fully explain, but why should they have forgotten their land and homes and just moved on? That's just ridiculous to me. If someone goes and steals your car, would your reaction be: "Meh, let him have it, I'll just go and get another one"?

The Palestinian case is special for several reasons:

1) Nothing similar has happened in modern history.

2) Never in history have so many people been kicked out of their countries to be replaced by another population

3) This happened with cover and advertisement of the powers in the world who are supposedly the protectors of morals and ethics and freedom in the world.

4) This was not by any means the typical "army conquers foreign country" scenario. For years after the first world war, Britain was rounding up the Jews in Europe and bringing them to Palestine till there were enough to replace the original inhabitants.

1) Not true at all. Modern history is filled with refugees. Syria has more refugees in the past year than were kicked/out fled from Palestine over 50 years. Kuwait after the first Gulf war kicked out about half a million Palestinians.

2) Not true at all. The same year, Indian and Pakistan had something like 25 million refugees during partition. They were replaced with other Muslims and/or Hindus. Actually also, a similar amount of Jews from Arab countries were driven out/fled in the same period as well. Anyway, in history there have been relatively few (still plenty) of masses of people being kicked out, because usually they just got slaughtered, segregated, and/or forcibly converted. Is that any better?

3) So has every other similar modern event. The difference is that those countries who were the the supposed protectors of morals were the invaders themselves. Look at the map of the world. This is simply how countries were always formed.

4) Completely not true. The British actually were generally neutral about Jews entering Palestine. (Or rather some were for it, some against)When the Arab population of Palestine started to riot, they put quotas on Jewish refugees .

Also, most war refugees are pretty similar. The difference between being forced out and fleeing is not as big as you might think. (People generally flee because they are afraid of being killed). Anyway, there has been exhaustive research done on this subject, and the vast majority of Palestinians fled like every other war refugee. They were afraid because soldiers were attacking their towns and seizing them.

And this...is the crux of the issue..."I won't get into the complicated political reasons that would probably take several books to fully explain, but why should they have forgotten their land and homes and just moved on? That's just ridiculous to me. If someone goes and steals your car, would your reaction be: "Meh, let him have it, I'll just go and get another one"?"

Because, at some point you have to move on. You can't hold on to past wrongs done to you forever. My house was on property that was, I am sure Native property not that long ago. Europeans were slaughtering each other less than 70 years ago (for centuries with no stop). I'm not saying forget who you are (although everyone always does and forges new identities), but you can't hold on to the past if it's not actually in your best interest. This isn't a few years after the war where the refugees were still seeing what would happen. This is 65 years later. It's ridiculous for them to be kept in camps waiting for something that will ever happen in their lifetimes. If someone stole my car 65 years ago, would I never buy a new car because I legally still own one that someone stole? It's not even at that point anymore. It's "my grandfather had his car stolen 65 years ago, so I can't move on." There are very few actual refugees left and in another couple of decades, there will be none. (This is a very different issue than the right of the Palestinians to their own state. That is a current wrong that needs to be righted not for something that happened 65 years ago but for something happening today.).

[CHOULO19 24,332]

1) Not true at all. Modern history is filled with refugees. Syria has more refugees in the past year than were kicked/out fled from Palestine over 50 years. Kuwait after the first Gulf war kicked out about half a million Palestinians.

2) Not true at all. The same year, Indian and Pakistan had something like 25 million refugees during partition. They were replaced with other Muslims and/or Hindus. Actually also, a similar amount of Jews from Arab countries were driven out/fled in the same period as well. Anyway, in history there have been relatively few (still plenty) of masses of people being kicked out, because usually they just got slaughtered, segregated, and/or forcibly converted. Is that any better?

3) So has every other similar modern event. The difference is that those countries who were the the supposed protectors of morals were the invaders themselves. Look at the map of the world. This is simply how countries were always formed.

4) Completely not true. The British actually were generally neutral about Jews entering Palestine. (Or rather some were for it, some against)When the Arab population of Palestine started to riot, they put quotas on Jewish refugees .

Also, most war refugees are pretty similar. The difference between being forced out and fleeing is not as big as you might think. (People generally flee because they are afraid of being killed). Anyway, there has been exhaustive research done on this subject, and the vast majority of Palestinians fled like every other war refugee. They were afraid because soldiers were attacking their towns and seizing them.

And this...is the crux of the issue..."I won't get into the complicated political reasons that would probably take several books to fully explain, but why should they have forgotten their land and homes and just moved on? That's just ridiculous to me. If someone goes and steals your car, would your reaction be: "Meh, let him have it, I'll just go and get another one"?"

Because, at some point you have to move on. You can't hold on to past wrongs done to you forever. My house was on property that was, I am sure Native property not that long ago. Europeans were slaughtering each other less than 70 years ago (for centuries with no stop). I'm not saying forget who you are (although everyone always does and forges new identities), but you can't hold on to the past if it's not actually in your best interest. This isn't a few years after the war where the refugees were still seeing what would happen. This is 65 years later. It's ridiculous for them to be kept in camps waiting for something that will ever happen in their lifetimes. If someone stole my car 65 years ago, would I never buy a new car because I legally still own one that someone stole? It's not even at that point anymore. It's "my grandfather had his car stolen 65 years ago, so I can't move on." There are very few actual refugees left and in another couple of decades, there will be none. (This is a very different issue than the right of the Palestinians to their own state. That is a current wrong that needs to be righted not for something that happened 65 years ago but for something happening today.).

1) One thing to leave willingly and know that you can return when you want, and completely different thing to be forced out and see you home occupied by a stranger.

2) Fair enough, but it's still quite a unique event.

3) The hypocricy of the US and UN have never been more clear than in the Palestinian case.

4) Where did all the Jews arrive from then? I'm sure you're familiar with Lord Belfore's promisss and the sykes picot agreement, so I won't get into them. If you want more proof, here is some 'American' proof. I doubt you've heard of the King-Crane commission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission#cite_note-gelvin22-9 This was in 1919 in pre-Zionist USA when the US was genuinely fighting for the freedom of nations. Give it a read, it'll only take 10 mins, but will give a better idea of the state of the region after the first world war.

It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

The immigration of Jews to Palestine during the British colonization of the region was very systematic and happened with the intent of creating a Jewish state there by force which would, as the commission stated, inevitably have to violate the Palestinian's basic and religious rights.

Two more points. One, the Palestinian refugees CANNOT be integrated into the countries they are currently for various political and ideological balances. No one would agree to. The Palestinians would probably be the ones who agree most with that. But no one would let that happen, not the Palestinian leaders, not the countries they are in, not France and the European council, not the US or even the Israeli themselves. I know it's probably hard for someone who doesn't live in the region to understand that, and it will be even harder to explain, but it is just not possible.

Take Lebanon for example, we have a sectarian regime that is built around the equality in all official positions between Muslims and Christians (we have, for example, 128 parliament members, 64 have to Muslim and the other 64 have to be Christians according to our laws). And since our population is somewhere between 3 and 4 million, an additional half a million of Palestinians that are currently in Lebanon and that are mostly Muslims would cause a huge imbalance in the force and would cause a certain civil war. In fact the Palestinian presence here has already (among other reasons) cause a civil that lasted 20 years and only ended in the early 90s. And that's just one simplified example. There are load more similar reasons that are 10 times more complicated.

Two, the notion that they should just move (no idea where that 'on' is since they really have absolutely no where to go) is one that I refuse to accept. If people accepted that, there would no revolutions, no democracy, no such things as human rights. What we have achieved, as a race have been through fighting, against odds, for the morals and rights that would make us all live under 'fair' conditions. What happened in Palestine and is still happening is wrong in every possible ethical and moral definition, and the people who's rights were taken are still fighting for them. Why should I not stand by them? Why should we 'move on' and gift the offenders an immoral victory?

[Spike 12,049]

Wrong. In Palestine, millions of people were literally thrown out of their houses and and forced to leave the country. That has never happened in history, not that I know of at least. They were made to go to leave their homes and farms and work to go to countries where they have nothing and where they have been forced to live in refugee camps since 1948. There are tens of those camps across Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. I live across the highway to one of those refugee camps and if there were still day light I would have took a picture and posted it here so you could see what it looks like. They live in crammed, poorly built houses that don't have the most basic aspects for life. For political reasons, they aren't allowed to own any property or work in most jobs. So no it not exactly the same at all because when it comes to Pallestine there are millions of people living in inhuman conditions who still want their land and homes back.

EDIT: Here are a few pics I got from onlline:

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z291/johnlknight/U834109.jpg

http://www.map-uk.org/files/442_burg_typical_camp_scene.jpg

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/34/RefugeeCamp.palestine-34.jpg

http://www.greenprophet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/refugee-camp-lebanon-al-jazeera-560x315.jpg

http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/400-2/photos/1289996807-palestinian-hiphop-in-beiruts-refugee-camps_461942.jpg

Well it's completely obvious you have no idea about Australia, it's not as bad as Palesine but it's the same thing just a different degree of it. Just because the Indigenous people of Australia didnt'live in convential western homes doesn't mean they weren't kicked off their land/homes.What you think the British colonialists came over and were all friendy with the Aboriginals? I would say there are millions living in squalid conditions in Australia but that's not true because most are dead. Some places of the Northern Terriotory resemble third world countries.

There have been things to rectify it like Native Title, Land Rights etc but most of it's bullshit.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/in-the-outback-a-third-world-utopia/2008/02/29/1204226991317.html

They used to have a unique culture but now it's been replaced by a culture where 75% of the adeult men wind up in jail and the mothers have 10 kids to 10 different men. And nobody really cares about them, you don't here about it on the news because they are a sense of shame to the great country of Australia.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Well it's completely obvious you have no idea about Australia, it's not as bad as Palesine but it's the same thing just a different degree of it. Just because the Indigenous people of Australia didnt'live in convential western homes doesn't mean they weren't kicked off their land/homes.What you think the British colonialists came over and were all friendy with the Aboriginals? I would say there are millions living in squalid conditions in Australia but that's not true because most are dead. Some places of the Northern Terriotory resemble third world countries.

There have been things to rectify it like Native Title, Land Rights etc but most of it's bullshit.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/in-the-outback-a-third-world-utopia/2008/02/29/1204226991317.html

They used to have a unique culture but now it's been replaced by a culture where 75% of the adeult men wind up in jail and the mothers have 10 kids to 10 different men. And nobody really cares about them, you don't here about it on the news because they are a sense of shame to the great country of Australia.

But the point is, those people are still in their country. What happened in Australia is what happened in most of the world during the colonization era. The inhabitants of Palestine were not uncivilized tribes, in fact they probably the most advanced nation in the area. Palestine was the trading center of the region. The point where east meets west (not that being tribes makes throwing them out of their land okay). They were not conquered by an army, they were thrown out of their homes by their colonizing country to be replaced by people who immigrated there from all over Europe so they could solve a European political issue. And again the difference is that the people of Palestine are still not allowed back into their land, they are very much civilized and educated people forced against their will to live in some of the worst living conditions in the world. Another major difference is that the issues is far from over, it is still going on everyday. The people of Palestine still believe and want to get back to their land and small amount who stayed in Gaza and the West Bank are still being killed and massacred every day. The struggle is still pretty alive.

There are plenty of other reasons that I just don't have the time to get into right now. But one last point, even if we assume that what happened in Palestine is a reoccurring event in history, that does not by any means make it right, and that does not mean that we should accept it and not do anything about it. You are happy now to say that this is something that happens all over the world and that your ancestors did it, but I'm sure you would not be so happy if you were on the receiving end and someone decided to kick you and your whole city out of Australia for some reason and force you to live in Antarctica.

[Spike 12,049]

@CHOULO19, fair enough. I really don't care enough to argue. Just so you know, tribe is offensive. It's Language Nation.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@CHOULO19, fair enough. I really don't care enough to argue. Just so you know, tribe is offensive. It's Language Nation.

Didn't know that, thanks.

[Liquidator 5,176]

I concur, sir. The political system has so many flaws.

What I don't get though, is the highlighted quoted sentence. In Denmark, they always tell us that we aren't as clever as other European countries...

really? Here they are always telling us how we should be more like Scandinavian countries for lifestyle, education etc. particularly Denmark which seems to be at the top of every table we get shown

[Amblève. 4,995]

really? Here they are always telling us how we should be more like Scandinavian countries for lifestyle, education etc. particularly Denmark which seems to be at the top of every table we get shown

Standstill is downfall. It's good to see nations such as Denmark strive for even better things.

[Liquidator 5,176]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/18/michael-gove-longer-school-day-holidays

Oh fuck off Gove you fucking pleb. His justification is that we are not working as long hours as school children in Singapore, China, Korea, Japan etc. which is why we are not getting results as good as them. In case he hasn't noticed, we also work longer school days than and have far less holiday than the vast majority of other European countries- yet we still don't do as well as them at school. What is the government's obsession with 'if we do it a lot it must be better'. Sorry to use Scandinavian countries as an example again but their pupils get better results than us, start school at a later age, have longer holidays and work less hours in a day. Maybe it has something to do with the quality of teaching here Gove you idiot? Yet as my post above shows, he is cutting teaching hours in schools further and expects better results at the same time.

Maybe if he is suggesting shorter holidays for school children he should suggest shorter holidays for himself and the fellow incompetent idiots that run this country (who have longer holidays than school children and get paid thousands of pounds per year to make stupid decisions like this). Seriously, you would consider that with the UK being one of the countries that has a big say in worldwide issues we would have members of Parliament who actually had some knowledge related to the title of their job. What does Michael Gove know about education? He has never been a teacher, he never did a degree related to education. Same goes for security, finance etc. This political system is ridiculous from top to bottom. They just make stupid decisions again and again and just pat each other on the back for doing so.

Also, anyone living in the UK had the displeasure of watching these party election broadcasts on BBC1 at about 6:55 each evening? They are so unbelievably cringeworthy. All of these false promises, airbrushed politicians talking about us as 'One nation moving forward under Labour' or 'A brighter future for all under the Conservatives'. I don't know whether to laugh or vomit. I have lost all faith in this country's ridiculous political system.

[Peppen 934]

really? Here they are always telling us how we should be more like Scandinavian countries for lifestyle, education etc. particularly Denmark which seems to be at the top of every table we get shown

Yup. We always get told that we as individuals should embrace the same attitude towards multiculturalism such as the UK in particular. I've always been told purely positive things about the UK systems, which we often seem to be striving to achieve the same elements of.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

How to deal with the cops.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

What is the protest about? and why did the activists clash with police?

The political system in Bahrain is a dictatorship like all of the gulf. And it so happens that the people in power belong to certain sect (Sunna) and persecute the rights of the other sect (Shiite) despite 90% of the population being Shiite. There have been protests for over two years now and the protesters are being murdered by the police on a regular basis. The KSA even sent an army to help the Bahraini army against the unarmed protesters. But the fight there means very little for any of the regional and international powers that it has barely been mentioned in the media.

Anyway, it just seemed absurd to me to hold an F1 race when their people are dying on the same streets..

[Strike 7,492]

The political system in Bahrain is a dictatorship like all of the gulf. And it so happens that the people in power belong to certain sect (Sunna) and persecute the rights of the other sect (Shiite) despite 90% of the population being Shiite. There have been protests for over two years now and the protesters are being murdered by the police on a regular basis. The KSA even sent an army to help the Bahraini army against the unarmed protesters. But the fight there means very little for any of the regional and international powers that it has barely been mentioned in the media.

Anyway, it just seemed absurd to me to hold an F1 race when their people are dying on the same streets..

oh. is the media controlled in any way?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

oh. is the media controlled in any way?

I meant the international media. Even in the regional media here, it just gets casually mentioned in the news for 10 seconds. No idea what their local media is reporting but I guess normally it will side with people in power.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Another US drone attack story that raises more questions than answers about drone attacks: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/04/yemen-village-drone-attack-wessab.html

[Peace. 4,352]

So, yesterday, I saw on the television that two "terrorists", who were planing a terrorist attack on the train going from Toronto to New-York (or the other way, I don't recall), were arrested.

Surprise surprise, authorities claimed that it was two terrorists trained by Al-Qaïda in camps in Iran.

In other words, they were trained by an organisation which doesn't exist in a country which USA would like to attack (it's an open secret, I guess). Do you remember the last time that US government threw the wild card "Al-Qaïda" ? Exactly. As time goes by, I guess we can start to picture what's the situation all about.

[NishC300 1,865]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/world/asia/us-accuses-chinas-military-in-cyberattacks.html?pagewanted=1&ref=politics&_r=0

Read this.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Thought for the day;

According to Oxfam's estimates, almost $18.5 trillion is being held for individuals in tax havens, one third of it in British Overseas Territories and crown dependencies.

This is a conservative figure. Even so $18.5 trillion would yield $156 billion to tax authorities around the world, whilst the cost of providing every person on earth with an income of $1.25 a day would be $66 billion.

[jasonlol 154]

Any ayn rand fans?