Thibaut Courtois

[Stingray 9,441]

He said in the belgian media he completely missed the ball due to being blinded by the stadium lights

Oh I'm sorry but this is not a reason. he made a mistake, he should save that.

Agree. Just stating what is reported in the media. Not an excuse whatsoever!

[lionsden 4,689]

I'm one of the very few that has major doubts about him. I watch La liga alot and he's always been protected by the (annoyingly cynical but brilliantly solid) Athletico team defensive unit which to me is the best in Europe alongside Bayern. No other team have the defensive cohesion and solidity of those 2. barca under pep were similar.

As a result of this, opposition teams are usually reduced to fewer chance creation and fewer goal attempts against them which is not fair way to judge a goal keeper and makes stats misleading in this case. for example, I have never seen any team (apart from barca on 3 occassions) dominate and create as many clear cut chances against Simeone A.Madrid as the way we have been dominated in the past by Bayern, barca, Basel last night and so on with Cech usually saving our asses from utter humiliation result wise or rescuing a point or even salvaging maximum point under such circumstances.

If anyone has proof of the matches were Atheltico have been dominated and Courtois single handedly rescued points for them, I will like to see it. even the Madrid derby, i could only think of 1 magnificent save he had to make all game. such is the difficulty in breaching their defence. problem is, we are not as solid a defensive unit as the Spanish outfit and I'm not sure he would be as good and reliable as cech at saving our asses.

[edetarod 2,155]

I'm one of the very few that has major doubts about him. I watch La liga alot and he's always been protected by the (annoyingly cynical but brilliantly solid) Athletico team defensive unit which to me is the best in Europe alongside Bayern. No other team have the defensive cohesion and solidity of those 2. barca under pep were similar.

As a result of this, opposition teams are usually reduced to fewer chance creation and fewer goal attempts against them which is not fair way to judge a goal keeper and makes stats misleading in this case. for example, I have never seen any team (apart from barca on 3 occassions) dominate and create as many clear cut chances against Simeone A.Madrid as the way we have been dominated in the past by Bayern, barca, Basel last night and so on with Cech usually saving our asses from utter humiliation result wise or rescuing a point or even salvaging maximum point under such circumstances.

If anyone has proof of the matches were Atheltico have been dominated and Courtois single handedly rescued points for them, I will like to see it. even the Madrid derby, i could only think of 1 magnificent save he had to make all game. such is the difficulty in breaching their defence. problem is, we are not as solid a defensive unit as the Spanish outfit and I'm not sure he would be as good and reliable as cech at saving our asses.

only one way to find out...

but he's been good for Belgium too

[lionsden 4,689]

only one way to find out...

but he's been good for Belgium too

Why fix something that's broken? why take such risk when we don't have to as cech remains one of the best GK's in the world and still has atleast 5 more elite years left in him.

The only way i had be convinced by courtois and comfortable with him replacing cech right now is if A.madrid's defensive unit breaks down and deteriorate and he's tested far more than he's been used to and shows the capability to be genuine match winner on a consistent basis.

The only reason I rate Manuel neuer who's regarded as the best is because I saw what he was capable of at Schalke. if it was up to his bayern performance, he wouldn't make my top 10 as he rarely gets tested, if at all, just like Courtois.

Those two could stay at home to watch game of thrones and their teams would still keep a clean shit.

[Tomo 21,733]

Why fix something that's broken? why take such risk when we don't have to as cech remains one of the best GK's in the world and still has atleast 5 more elite years left in him.

The only way i had be convinced by courtois and comfortable with him replacing cech right now is if A.madrid's defensive unit breaks down and deteriorate and he's tested far more than he's been used to and shows the capability to be genuine match winner on a consistent basis.

The only reason I rate Manuel neuer who's regarded as the best is because I saw what he was capable of at Schalke. if it was up to his bayern performance, he wouldn't make my top 10 as he rarely gets tested, if at all, just like Courtois.

Those two could stay home to watch game of thrones and their teams would still keep a clean shit.

So did you not really rate Cech when before 2009 (when our defense started declining)?

I remember seeing highlight's of Genk's title winning match when it was 1-1 and they would have lost (the title) if they conceded again and Courtois made some top saves (i think it was posted in this thread at some point).

Also being involved in a shit defense and a great one doesn't always go hand in hand, look at Shay Given, he thrived at having his goal battered when he was a Newcastle player but when it came to only being called upon once or twice a game at Man.City, he didn't look half the keeper and lost his place in the side after just over a year.

[lionsden 4,689]

So did you not really rate Cech when before 2009 (when our defense started declining)?

I remember seeing highlight's of Genk's title winning match when it was 1-1 and they would have lost (the title) if they conceded again and Courtois made some top saves (i think it was posted in this thread at some point).

Also being involved in a shit defense and a great one doesn't always go hand in hand, look at Shay Given, he thrived at having his goal battered when he was a Newcastle player but when it came to only being called upon once or twice a game at Man.City, he didn't look half the keeper and lost his place in the side after just over a year.

Despite our defence being generally solid those years, cech still had to make more saves than those two.

So you want to use ONE game as evidence that Thibaut is reliable when called upon? on that basis, Tim Krul must be the best GK in world football as I'm yet to see any goalkeeping performance as dominant as the one he has against spurs this season.

Shay Given's form didn't dip at man city and he wasn't out of favor for performance reasons as there was nothing wrong with his performance in the 09/10. he was just unlucky that there was this young goalkeeper who had just had as brilliant, if not more, a season with Birmingham on loan and mancini simply preferred youthful exuberance over reliability and experience and I was one of those that criticized that decision at the time as Given didn't deserve to be dropped and abandoned.

[Weckerz 3,781]

^

In my opinion he's better than Cech right now and he'll be better than prime Cech when he's older.

I don't believe for a second you've been watching La Liga a lot the last 2 years, you wouldn't ask for 'evidence' regarding his consistency or capability if you had.

[lionsden 4,689]

^

In my opinion he's better than Cech right now and he'll be better than prime Cech when he's older.

I don't believe for a second you've been watching La Liga a lot the last 2 years, you wouldn't ask for 'evidence' regarding his consistency or capability if you had.

You have the right to doubt whether I have been following la liga for the past 2 years the same way I have the right to not give a shit what you think about the validity of my statement.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

^

In my opinion he's better than Cech right now and he'll be better than prime Cech when he's older.

I don't believe for a second you've been watching La Liga a lot the last 2 years, you wouldn't ask for 'evidence' regarding his consistency or capability if you had.

I've watched a big part of his games with Athletico since he moved there and I think @lionsden makes some valid points. I don't think anyone can doubt that Thibaut is a great talent, but I also think that you can't use his stats with Athletico to prove much because they have arguably the best defense not just in Spain but all of Europe. The only time I've seen a match Thibaut had to make save after save after save with Athletico like Petr did against Bayern, Basel on Tuesday, the first half against Schalke in Germany..etc was in the Copa Del Ray final last season. There were several games that I watched last season where he didn't have to make a single save throughout the match.

That is of course not his fault, and he, of course, should receive some credit for how good Athletico's defense has been because he is part of it, but I don't think that it is enough for us definitively say that he is already good enough to be first choice for us when we have someone like Petr Cech. That said, I agree with @edetarod, that the only way to find out is to try him here at Chelsea. I think we are well beyond the stage of not giving him a chance here. If he stays he will certainly get a chance to prove that he should be our first choice keeper, as he rightly should. But I don't think it is wise to get rid of someone as good as Cech so hastily for Thibaut simply because I don't believe he has yet proved that he is on the same level as Petr already.

[Weckerz 3,781]

You have the right to doubt whether I have been following la liga for the past 2 years the same way I have the right to not give a shit what you think about the validity of my statement.

True that.

[Stingray 9,441]

why take such risk when we don't have to as cech remains one of the best GK's in the world and still has atleast 5 more elite years left in him.

There are a lot of uncertainties in that statement, I believe.

1. Courtois is a huge risk - which is not a fact but an opinion. He is a top (though young) keeper in my view and the views of many more + his excellent point saving abilities for Belgium (he was really there to save points in the WC campaign). Also, in his Genk years he got tested a LOT. He actually contributed greatly to their title by saving points.

2. Cech has 5 elite years in him. That is mere conjecture, really. No way of knowing + not every keeper can go on to say 37 as you seem to imply. A Van Der Sar scenario is more an exception than the norm. It would be dangerous to bet on it tbh.

We will have to trust in José to make the right call.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I'm one of the very few that has major doubts about him. I watch La liga alot and he's always been protected by the (annoyingly cynical but brilliantly solid) Athletico team defensive unit which to me is the best in Europe alongside Bayern. No other team have the defensive cohesion and solidity of those 2. barca under pep were similar.

As a result of this, opposition teams are usually reduced to fewer chance creation and fewer goal attempts against them which is not fair way to judge a goal keeper and makes stats misleading in this case. for example, I have never seen any team (apart from barca on 3 occassions) dominate and create as many clear cut chances against Simeone A.Madrid as the way we have been dominated in the past by Bayern, barca, Basel last night and so on with Cech usually saving our asses from utter humiliation result wise or rescuing a point or even salvaging maximum point under such circumstances.

If anyone has proof of the matches were Atheltico have been dominated and Courtois single handedly rescued points for them, I will like to see it. even the Madrid derby, i could only think of 1 magnificent save he had to make all game. such is the difficulty in breaching their defence. problem is, we are not as solid a defensive unit as the Spanish outfit and I'm not sure he would be as good and reliable as cech at saving our asses.

I don't entirely agree with you. I still think Courtois has incredible potential and is already a very good keeper but you do make a very valid point. Athletico plays probably the tightest defence in Europe. Last year, for example, Courtois faced a meager 9.2 shots a game and shockingly, didn't have to face a single penalty. This year, it's 8.1 shots a game and again no penalties. And of course, most of those shots are not on target. Courtois made 2.32 saves a game last season. Cech made 3.39. That means that Cech was making 50% more saves a game than Courtois which is a massive difference. Courtoi's great numbers are largely due to a defence that simply doesn't allow shots or good chances. It's a difficult situation because 1) Any keeper would have success in that system 2) a great keeper would have a very hard time proving he's great in that system. This is why I thought a loan to mid-table English club would have been good because 1) He'd get to face a lot more chances , like probably double the saves a game and of better quality. 2) He'd get used to the English game which is different even for keepers especially dealing with balls in the air which happens much more in England. (It took De Gea a year+ to adjust.) but I do understand why he wouldn't want to leave a very good club where he could win trophies and is comfortable for a mid-table English side. I do think Courtois is very probably good enough to start for Chelsea right now but I also am positive that many people overrate where he is right now because of Athletico's stingy defense.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

I'm one of the very few that has major doubts about him. I watch La liga alot and he's always been protected by the (annoyingly cynical but brilliantly solid) Athletico team defensive unit which to me is the best in Europe alongside Bayern. No other team have the defensive cohesion and solidity of those 2. barca under pep were similar.

As a result of this, opposition teams are usually reduced to fewer chance creation and fewer goal attempts against them which is not fair way to judge a goal keeper and makes stats misleading in this case. for example, I have never seen any team (apart from barca on 3 occassions) dominate and create as many clear cut chances against Simeone A.Madrid as the way we have been dominated in the past by Bayern, barca, Basel last night and so on with Cech usually saving our asses from utter humiliation result wise or rescuing a point or even salvaging maximum point under such circumstances.

If anyone has proof of the matches were Atheltico have been dominated and Courtois single handedly rescued points for them, I will like to see it. even the Madrid derby, i could only think of 1 magnificent save he had to make all game. such is the difficulty in breaching their defence. problem is, we are not as solid a defensive unit as the Spanish outfit and I'm not sure he would be as good and reliable as cech at saving our asses.

I agree. You can't deny the fact Courtois is a talented keeper - but I think many Chelsea fans are being blinded by hyperbole in terms of how good Courtois is, at the same time of suffering from a case of "don't-know-you've-got-something-good-going-on-until-you-lose-it" in regards to Cech.

[Reddish-Blue 2,345]

I agree. You can't deny the fact Courtois is a talented keeper - but I think many Chelsea fans are being blinded by hyperbole in terms of how good Courtois is, at the same time of suffering from a case of "don't-know-you've-got-something-good-going-on-until-you-lose-it" in regards to Cech.

From what i've seen, Courtois is just as talented as Cech was at the same age..

Of course it's a risk in terms of replacing Cech..but tough calls have to be made

Would you part ways with a club legend for a youngster capable of providing 10-15 years of top class service?

In Jose I trust.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

From what i've seen, Courtois is just as talented as Cech was at the same age..

Of course it's a risk in terms of replacing Cech..but tough calls have to be made

Would you part ways with a club legend for a youngster capable of providing 10-15 years of top class service?

In Jose I trust.

Hmm, I'm not sure. Cech was the indisputable best goalkeeper in the world between 2004-2006. Courtois right now has competition from Cech himself, Neuer, Weidenfeller, Lloris, etc. In terms of their abilities at the corresponding age, they are probably very similar, like you say. But that debate is irrelevant to my point - people are overestimating Courtois at the same time as not realising how good Cech still is. It amazes me how some supporters can underrate a player who has 450 appearances for the club! Is Cech as "bad" as some people make him out to be? Absolutely not. Similarly is Courtois as good as a lot of people make him out to be? Again, from my point of view, not quite, not yet anyway.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Hmm, I'm not sure. Cech was the indisputable best goalkeeper in the world between 2004-2006. Courtois right now has competition from Cech himself, Neuer, Weidenfeller, Lloris, etc. In terms of their abilities at the corresponding age, they are probably very similar, like you say. But that debate is irrelevant to my point - people are overestimating Courtois at the same time as not realising how good Cech still is. It amazes me how some supporters can underrate a player who has 450 appearances for the club! Is Cech as "bad" as some people make him out to be? Absolutely not. Similarly is Courtois as good as a lot of people make him out to be? Again, from my point of view, not quite, not yet anyway.

So you think we should sell Courtois to Barcelona?

Because that's the choice we have to actually make. Courtois, by all accounts, won't come and sit on the bench and he's quite right not to so we either play him or sell him.

It's all very well amassing these young players but at some point you've actually got to take a chance on them, rather than clinging to them forever.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

So you think we should sell Courtois to Barcelona?

Because that's the choice we have to actually make. Courtois, by all accounts, won't come and sit on the bench and he's quite right not to so we either play him or sell him.

It's all very well amassing these young players but at some point you've actually got to take a chance on them, rather than clinging to them forever.

I actually do think we could, and perhaps even should sell him. Finding quality goalkeepers is relatively easy. Obviously it will be extraordinarily difficult to find one with the same ceiling as Courtois, but goalkeepers are most definitely replaceable.

Goalkeepers aren't worth £25-30m, even in their prime - there are only a very few number of examples. It is simply too competitive a position, there will always be others coming through the academies.

For me, if you're going to get offered that amount of money for a goalkeeper, you should definitely consider cashing in. But that is only one option. Whilst I don't want it to be the case, I think Cech will leave in the summer and Courtois will come in as the number 1.

I fully agree you can't loan players out forever - so we either have to sell, or have him come into the side. But if he comes into the team and sits on the bench because of merit, and Cech is playing better than him, what will he do then? Moan, because he isn't playing as he isn't as good as the man he thought he'd replace? For me, it would be easier to sell him and bring in another goalkeeper in 2-3 years' time. But, as I said, what I think is irrelevant. I think he'll come in this summer and force Cech not; not necessarily through his ability, but through his obviously-huge ego. His attitude worries me. He doesn't want to spend a season on the bench - understandable. But it's as if he's scared of the competition from Cech.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I actually do think we could, and perhaps even should sell him. Finding quality goalkeepers is relatively easy. Obviously it will be extraordinarily difficult to find one with the same ceiling as Courtois, but goalkeepers are most definitely replaceable.

Goalkeepers aren't worth £25-30m, even in their prime - there are only a very few number of examples. It is simply too competitive a position, there will always be others coming through the academies.

For me, if you're going to get offered that amount of money for a goalkeeper, you should definitely consider cashing in. But that is only one option. Whilst I don't want it to be the case, I think Cech will leave in the summer and Courtois will come in as the number 1.

I fully agree you can't loan players out forever - so we either have to sell, or have him come into the side. But if he comes into the team and sits on the bench because of merit, and Cech is playing better than him, what will he do then? Moan, because he isn't playing as he isn't as good as the man he thought he'd replace? For me, it would be easier to sell him and bring in another goalkeeper in 2-3 years' time. But, as I said, what I think is irrelevant. I think he'll come in this summer and force Cech not; not necessarily through his ability, but through his obviously-huge ego. His attitude worries me. He doesn't want to spend a season on the bench - understandable. But it's as if he's scared of the competition from Cech.

First you say it's easy to replace keepers, then say it's difficult to find one with his ceiling. United took five years to replace Schmiechel and Arsenal still haven't replaced Seaman so when you have the chance to move from one worldie to another (possible) one I think you have to take it.

Then you say keepers aren't worth £25 million....but then say there are only a few examples. . I've heard of lots of keepers who have looked good coming up through academies (from Richard Wright and Steve Simonsen forwards) but very few actually make it to the level Courtois has in the short time that he has.

Put it like this....say he's worth £30 million. That's £3 million per year for a decade of service. I'd have paid that happily every season for Cech and Courtois looks like he could be every bit as good. To me, keepers are an area you can save money but end up regretting it later.

The last bit about his attitude is simply unfair. I have no problem with arrogance in keepers (look at Schmeichel) but this guy knows his own worth. He's the premier young keeper in the world right now, wanted by one of the best teams in the world and we actually own him. Competing for a spot in goal isn't simple either. It weakens the team in my opinion by eschewing stability in favour of a flawed competition and I think it could actually set back his development.

No-one who has followed this club for any length of time could possibly ignore Cech's contribution to our success, but that should surely remind them just how important a truly world-class goalkeeper is and how much of an opportunity this is. There's already a fair case to be made that Courtois is better than Cech on current form.