The Hiddink Thread

[Adnane 1,101]

WTF ?!

I was emphasizing that no matter how much luck we might have had in games like Everton for example, Guus still managed to break the record with a side that had lost 9 of 17 before he came.

Which means that his record is really worthy of being recognized, beyond the few bonus meters we might have had in Terry's goal for example. 

I guess you're answering the wrong person.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

I have just one thing against him; why are all managers we have so fucking scared every damn time? We had absolutely nothing to lose this season, Hiddink feels no pressure because he wont be coach next year, so why the fuck not go all out? We tried defensive last season and got spanked. 

Yet we go again. We dont even have good defence to play that style anymore ffs. We lose first game and still cant go forward in rematch. 

Whoever next manager will be; either park the bus but you better succeed at it or simply play football like every other big team in europe does. 

Talk from Motta that Hidding here is bad for them because now we would play football, well there was absolutely no difference if Mou or Hiddink was on bench vs psg. 

Apart from that some good calls, but Im sick to death that our coaches and players have no balls to go forward these days.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

13 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

I have just one thing against him; why are all managers we have so fucking scared every damn time? We had absolutely nothing to lose this season, Hiddink feels no pressure because he wont be coach next year, so why the fuck not go all out? We tried defensive last season and got spanked. 

Yet we go again. We dont even have good defence to play that style anymore ffs. We lose first game and still cant go forward in rematch. 

Whoever next manager will be; either park the bus but you better succeed at it or simply play football like every other big team in europe does. 

Talk from Motta that Hidding here is bad for them because now we would play football, well there was absolutely no difference if Mou or Hiddink was on bench vs psg. 

Apart from that some good calls, but Im sick to death that our coaches and players have no balls to go forward these days.

Guus chose the set up that he thought would give us the best chance to win. If he'd thought your approach was the best option he'd have gone with it but clearly he did not. If he was not gung-ho enough for you it's because he didn't think that was the way to go. I felt he was right. I thought his tactics were excellent and for quite a while enabled us to live with a side that is clearly better than we are.

Guus isn't affraid. He used his judgement and did what he judged best but we lost because Paris are better than we are. That's the long and the short of if.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

15 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Guus chose the set up that he thought would give us the best chance to win. If he'd thought your approach was the best option he'd have gone with it but clearly he did not. If he was not gung-ho enough for you it's because he didn't think that was the way to go. I felt he was right. I thought his tactics were excellent and for quite a while enabled us to live with a side that is clearly better than we are.

Guus isn't affraid. He used his judgement and did what he judged best but we lost because Paris are better than we are. That's the long and the short of if.

Only times in the game we were equal to psg is when we went forward. Whenever we pushed back they ran riot. That was clear in first half from what I saw. Dont know what was Hiddink looking. Then we pushed back in second half instead of going forward. And psg obviously scored. 

I understand we started game carefuly because single goal was enough for us to go through.  But from second half on, after seeing situation on pitch, Hiddink should know better to go forward as he is not bunker type coach. And yet he didnt. Psg arent unbeatable. They are better than us but we literaly served them the win as we allowed them to control the game, keep possesion and not press them. Everytime we pressed them they looked nervous because they are not used to that. They are used to keep ball and force opponents deep back. But we didnt exploit their weaknesses. 

I see it with gung ho approach in second half we could easily score first and then who knows. We would be 50:50 to go through. With defense tactics it was clear as day psg will score in 45 min which would be end for us. Its easy to talk now, but I had same opinion during half time. Only us pressing them high could win us game because we dont have defense good enough to park bus against psg and survive. And psg is weak in defense when pressed too because they usualy keep possesion and are not tested much in ligue 1. Should we press them and force them into mistakes we could score. Sure they could score on counter, but at least we had chance. Parking bus with state of our defence was never possible to go through. I thought Guus would think the same...

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

Only times in the game we were equal to psg is when we went forward. Whenever we pushed back they ran riot. That was clear in first half from what I saw. Dont know what was Hiddink looking. Then we pushed back in second half instead of going forward. And psg obviously scored. 

I understand we started game carefuly because single goal was enough for us to go through.  But from second half on, after seeing situation on pitch, Hiddink should know better to go forward as he is not bunker type coach. And yet he didnt. Psg arent unbeatable. They are better than us but we literaly served them the win as we allowed them to control the game, keep possesion and not press them. Everytime we pressed them they looked nervous because they are not used to that. They are used to keep ball and force opponents deep back. But we didnt exploit their weaknesses. 

I see it with gung ho approach in second half we could easily score first and then who knows. We would be 50:50 to go through. With defense tactics it was clear as day psg will score in 45 min which would be end for us. Its easy to talk now, but I had same opinion during half time. Only us pressing them high could win us game because we dont have defense good enough to park bus against psg and survive. And psg is weak in defense when pressed too because they usualy keep possesion and are not tested much in ligue 1. Should we press them and force them into mistakes we could score. Sure they could score on counter, but at least we had chance. Parking bus with state of our defence was never possible to go through. I thought Guus would think the same...

 

I did not see it this way. In an FA Cup game where you can gamble one goal you might score against one you might concede, maybe, but the away goal rule, a rule I love by the way, changes the odds dramatically. A second goal for Paris last night was effectively worth two-and-a-half goals. Those odds are always going to alter your outlook.

Guus's set up was, as I saw it, more flexible than the way you describe it. When an attack in numbers broke down, i.e. when we had enough bodies forward to make it worthwhile, we pressed high and did it well. We recovered the ball numerous times and created danger from it, including the goal. However when we had fewer than two or three people high we dropped off when our attacks broke down. There is no point pressing with too few players because they will just be passed around and all the energy they expend chasing the ball is simply wasted. When good sides have the ball against you, of course you drop back. Nothing else makes sense. Watch Barca, they do it.

The aim all night, well most of the night, was to break quickly with a three man front, DG, EH & PR with CA,  RFK  and one of CF or MJO bursting to join. Unfortunately we were let down by the referee. Like all clubs do when facing that tatic, PSG's method was to make a stopping foul, to make it quickly and to make it high. This is because the resulting free kick is not so dangerous and because a cynical foul near the opponents box and before the potential threat to your own goal is made clear, is seldom punished as severely by the officials as a cynical foul near your own box. Three Paris players should have been booked early for doing this and one, Rabiot, should have been sent off before half time for two such offences. Rabiot of course would not have been sent off, had he already been booked he would not have committed the second foul. The restriction an early booking would have placed on him, and and on Matuidi, would have made a difference to us. It would have allowed three or four more, potentially dangerous, attacks to develop rather than being illegally stopped.

 No professional manager, not one, is going to behave as you seem to be suggesting Guus should have done when facing a great opponent in the situation that conceding a single goal would eliminate his team.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

5 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I did not see it this way. In an FA Cup game where you can gamble one goal you might score against one you might concede, maybe, but the away goal rule, a rule I love by the way, changes the odds dramatically. A second goal for Paris last night was effectively worth two-and-a-half goals. Those odds are always going to alter your outlook.

Guus's set up was, as I saw it, more flexible than the way you describe it. When an attack in numbers broke down, i.e. when we had enough bodies forward to make it worthwhile, we pressed high and did it well. We recovered the ball numerous times and created danger from it, including the goal. However when we had fewer than two or three people high we dropped off when our attacks broke down. There is no point pressing with too few players because they will just be passed around and all the energy they expend chasing the ball is simply wasted. When good sides have the ball against you, of course you drop back. Nothing else makes sense. Watch Barca, they do it.

The aim all night, well most of the night, was to break quickly with a three man front, DG, EH & PR with CA,  RFK  and one of CF or MJO bursting to join. Unfortunately we were let down by the referee. Like all clubs do when facing that tatic, PSG's method was to make a stopping foul, to make it quickly and to make it high. This is because the resulting free kick is not so dangerous and because a cynical foul near the opponents box and before the potential threat to your own goal is made clear, is seldom punished as severely by the officials as a cynical foul near your own box. Three Paris players should have been booked early for doing this and one, Rabiot, should have been sent off before half time for two such offences. Rabiot of course would not have been sent off, had he already been booked he would not have committed the second foul. The restriction an early booking would have placed on him, and and on Matuidi, would have made a difference to us. It would have allowed three or four more, potentially dangerous, attacks to develop rather than being illegally stopped.

 No professional manager, not one, is going to behave as you seem to be suggesting Guus should have done when facing a great opponent in the situation that conceding a single goal would eliminate his team.

When underdog plays top team, it doesnt work always, but attacking sometimes brings great reward becuse it surprises opponent. 

While completely different situation, take look at Liverpool vs city (3:0) or last year arsenal vs city (2:0). Both sides pool and arsenal were underdogs and city is one of most talented teams in league, yet they played their style and won. 

We ALWAYS go safe approach in every bigger game for some time now. We did play very determined vs porto at bridge and we won 2:0 comfortably. Porto aint world class team, but still good enough to serve as example. 

Psg was simply better and our players didnt even try for big parts of the game. Both goals came from ridiculous positioning that is simply unaceptable if coach tells you to park the bus. If your players cant defend, no point in sitting back. I do agree though, the ref should be more strict, would benefit us alot, but pointing at ref is last thing to do. We werent good enough in defense, in midfield or attack. This team with Cesc and Mikel in middle,  with Hazard and Kenedy on one flank just isnt made to defend. We cant survive with those players because they dont fight enough to win the game or as in Kenedy case, playing him on LB against Lucas/Di Maria wasnt helping either. He might put decent display but made crucial mistake at Rabiot goal.

[communicate 2,703]

8 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Only times in the game we were equal to psg is when we went forward. Whenever we pushed back they ran riot. That was clear in first half from what I saw. Dont know what was Hiddink looking. Then we pushed back in second half instead of going forward. And psg obviously scored. 

I understand we started game carefuly because single goal was enough for us to go through.  But from second half on, after seeing situation on pitch, Hiddink should know better to go forward as he is not bunker type coach. And yet he didnt. Psg arent unbeatable. They are better than us but we literaly served them the win as we allowed them to control the game, keep possesion and not press them. Everytime we pressed them they looked nervous because they are not used to that. They are used to keep ball and force opponents deep back. But we didnt exploit their weaknesses. 

I see it with gung ho approach in second half we could easily score first and then who knows. We would be 50:50 to go through. With defense tactics it was clear as day psg will score in 45 min which would be end for us. Its easy to talk now, but I had same opinion during half time. Only us pressing them high could win us game because we dont have defense good enough to park bus against psg and survive. And psg is weak in defense when pressed too because they usualy keep possesion and are not tested much in ligue 1. Should we press them and force them into mistakes we could score. Sure they could score on counter, but at least we had chance. Parking bus with state of our defence was never possible to go through. I thought Guus would think the same...

 

Do you realise going gung ho is the worst thing that you can do, at 1:1 if PSG score 1 goal, we need to score 3. Basically game over.

I thought we did fine, after 1st goal we press them really well but you cannot press all the time

[communicate 2,703]

7 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I did not see it this way. In an FA Cup game where you can gamble one goal you might score against one you might concede, maybe, but the away goal rule, a rule I love by the way, changes the odds dramatically. A second goal for Paris last night was effectively worth two-and-a-half goals. Those odds are always going to alter your outlook.

Guus's set up was, as I saw it, more flexible than the way you describe it. When an attack in numbers broke down, i.e. when we had enough bodies forward to make it worthwhile, we pressed high and did it well. We recovered the ball numerous times and created danger from it, including the goal. However when we had fewer than two or three people high we dropped off when our attacks broke down. There is no point pressing with too few players because they will just be passed around and all the energy they expend chasing the ball is simply wasted. When good sides have the ball against you, of course you drop back. Nothing else makes sense. Watch Barca, they do it.

The aim all night, well most of the night, was to break quickly with a three man front, DG, EH & PR with CA,  RFK  and one of CF or MJO bursting to join. Unfortunately we were let down by the referee. Like all clubs do when facing that tatic, PSG's method was to make a stopping foul, to make it quickly and to make it high. This is because the resulting free kick is not so dangerous and because a cynical foul near the opponents box and before the potential threat to your own goal is made clear, is seldom punished as severely by the officials as a cynical foul near your own box. Three Paris players should have been booked early for doing this and one, Rabiot, should have been sent off before half time for two such offences. Rabiot of course would not have been sent off, had he already been booked he would not have committed the second foul. The restriction an early booking would have placed on him, and and on Matuidi, would have made a difference to us. It would have allowed three or four more, potentially dangerous, attacks to develop rather than being illegally stopped.

 No professional manager, not one, is going to behave as you seem to be suggesting Guus should have done when facing a great opponent in the situation that conceding a single goal would eliminate his team.

Fantastic post.

I think even Mou pointed out the same thing last year. PSG was very "clever" similar to barcelona in term of making cynical foul to prevent counter attack. 

and there is no way we are going to play open football with high line with iva n cahill at the back. 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

5 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

When underdog plays top team, it doesnt work always, but attacking sometimes brings great reward becuse it surprises opponent. 

While completely different situation, take look at Liverpool vs city (3:0) or last year arsenal vs city (2:0). Both sides pool and arsenal were underdogs and city is one of most talented teams in league, yet they played their style and won. 

We ALWAYS go safe approach in every bigger game for some time now. We did play very determined vs porto at bridge and we won 2:0 comfortably. Porto aint world class team, but still good enough to serve as example. 

Psg was simply better and our players didnt even try for big parts of the game. Both goals came from ridiculous positioning that is simply unaceptable if coach tells you to park the bus. If your players cant defend, no point in sitting back. I do agree though, the ref should be more strict, would benefit us alot, but pointing at ref is last thing to do. We werent good enough in defense, in midfield or attack. This team with Cesc and Mikel in middle,  with Hazard and Kenedy on one flank just isnt made to defend. We cant survive with those players because they dont fight enough to win the game or as in Kenedy case, playing him on LB against Lucas/Di Maria wasnt helping either. He might put decent display but made crucial mistake at Rabiot goal.

I think you are doing what many cricket commentators do. A batsman steps forward to a goodish length ball outside the off stump and smacks it through cover to the boundary. Played, they say. What a stroke, they purr. Next ball he makes the same shot but plays a few millimetres inside the line, and the ball moves a few millimetres off the seam. Result, a splice to point and a brilliant catch. Now we get endless analysis about how the bat was away from his body, how we wasn't quite over the ball, how his front foot wasn't quite to the pitch, and how he has to cut out these mistakes.

We drew at City last season thanks to Super Frank. In truth we were lucky to get a point because we were comprehensively outplayed. That was in contrast to our league win there the previous season which was widely hailed as a tactical master class and the performance of the season. I had a debate on here with someone who was blasting away at Jose for his defensive set up in the draw and laying into him for not being more aggressive as he had been the first time.

My point, and the point of these two examples, is that the tactics were exactly the same in both games. Indeed City had more possession, and a greater territorial dominance in the game we won than in the one which was drawn. The only difference is that the players played well in the win and, barring the absolutely brilliant Andre Schurrle goal, they were utterly hopeless in the draw. In the win, when we did spring forward we passed crisply and accurately to retain possession and allow time for numbers to join the attack. That made it look like we were more offensively set up but, as I say, we were deployed the same way in the draw. We just passed like park players in that game and seldom retained good possession.

Had we played gung-ho football on Wednesday, Paris would have murdered us but had we implemented Guus's tactics with just a little more quality, and a little more help from the officials, we might have run them closer. The tactics were fine, the talent level in our squad is the problem and it has been so, in your words, for some time now. Managers have to cut their cloth. Hiddink is a very good cloth cutter.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

4 hours ago, communicate said:

Fantastic post.

Thank you.

4 hours ago, communicate said:

PSG was very "clever" similar to barcelona in term of making cynical foul to prevent counter attack.

We do it too but not as shamelessly as Manchester City who do it absolutely routinely. Their wide men are not wide at all, barring Nevas who wasn't starting when KDB was fit, so they push their full backs high for width. This frequently leaves them with the foul as their only choice when an opponent threatens to break against them. In our semi-final at Wembley in 2013 Ya-ya should already have been sent off for two cynical challenges before he was eventually booked for a third one. Referees have to up their game on this issue.

[Tautvix 1,321]

[Fernando 6,376]

3 minutes ago, Tautvix said:

What's the whole point of this?

Since it was Mourinho that left us on this mess. Sold a lot of of our top young players. KDB, Mata, Lukaku.....

[LAM09 6,548]

As stubborn as Mou. I would prefer Terry to be player-manager till the end of the season.

[Laylabelle 9,296]

We're so hit and miss!!!ain't his fault really the team we have are dire but still one home league win and out of 2 comps in a week..need to hopefully finish with a bang!

[Blue_Fox_ 2,086]

Not his fault. Players are cold shite.

[AWorriedChelseaFan 151]

Coward Guus, absolutely pathetic from him today.

 

Matic/Mikel in the middle is one of the starting sign of a disaster.

 

I'm done with this season, see you guys in the summer

[Beepu 1,714]

He's not a miracle worker. With a midfield or Matic-Mikel and a defensive partnership of Ivanovic-Cahill there are only so much he could've done, can't blame him.

[Miki-Liki 405]

10 minutes ago, Fernando said:

What's the whole point of this?

Since it was Mourinho that left us on this mess. Sold a lot of of our top young players. KDB, Mata, Lukaku.....

 

Since the individual got the sack, some fans just can't wait to see the club they support fail so they can gloat.

 

Still, his approach and decisions were absolutely pathetic today.