Neymar

[Rmpr 8,977]

Pelé does not have 2 UEFA Champions League wins.

1. Have not watched Pelé play. I've watched Maradona and Messi quite a bit.

2. Pelé annoys me.

3. I don't count friendlies and internationals as much so Pelé has 707 goals in my books. Messi still only has 288, that is a long way to go.

4. International and clubs should be counted as seperate arguments.

5. I actually don't think goals count that much. Beckenbauer has 94 and Zidane 128...

6. Australia > Argentina > Brazil in Rugby.

TOO QUICK SPIKE, give me time to read it and correct the mistakes!

I have not watched Pele play, but I have watched more than 40+ full games of him.

International + Club = Full Career. You need both to judge who has the overall edge.

Your hate for Pele should not be taken into consideration, only his professional achievements.

Goals count when you recieve a post bashing them.

Rugby has nothing to do with it and I dont care if Brazil even has a team.

[Spike 12,049]

International + Club = Full Career. You need both to judge who has the overall edge.

I didn't say that one or the other should only be taken into consideration, just that you need to argue differently for both. International is very different to club football, that's why you need to analyse the seperatly, that's what I'm saying. They can be both used in the same argument, but they should not be inclusive.

Your hate for Pele should not be taken into consideration, only his professional achievements.

I'm Spike Spiegel, I do what I want.

Goals count when you recieve a post bashing them.

Goals always count, just not as much as most people think they do.

Rugby has nothing to do with it and I dont even care if Brazil even has a team.

Rugby has everything to do with everything.

[Rmpr 8,977]

I didn't say that one or the other should only be taken into consideration, just that you need to argue differently for both. International is very different to club football, that's why you need to analyse the seperatly, that's what I'm saying. They can be both used in the same argument, but they should not be inclusive.

I'm Spike Spiegel, I do what I want.

Goals always count, just not as much as most people think they do.

Rugby has everything to do with everything.

Alright, fair enough!

Does Brazil really have a professional team. Sure it isnt all amateur?

[Spike 12,049]

Alright, fair enough!

Does Brazil really have a professional team. Sure it isnt all amateur?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_national_rugby_union_team

I think you'll find your success against Argenitna quite disturbing.

[Beepu 1,714]

Pelé does not have 2 UEFA Champions League wins.

1. Have not watched Pelé play. I've watched Maradona and Messi quite a bit.

2. Pelé annoys me.

3. I don't count friendlies and internationals as much so Pelé has 707 goals in my books. Messi still only has 288, that is a long way to go.

4. International and clubs should be counted as seperate arguments.

5. I actually don't think goals count that much. Beckenbauer has 94 and Zidane 128...

6. New Zealand>Australia > Argentina > Brazil in Rugby.

Fixed, tbh im not a fan of the All blacks but they are unbeatable.

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

Fixed, tbh im not a fan of the All blacks but they are unbeatable.

LOL. They're the biggest chokers in Rugby.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Well I wont be saying who is best player ever, but the world cup is world cup. Possibly the greatest trophy ever. All the biggest players have won it. It is based on team work and personal excelence of one player. Zambia has small team but they beat everyone on last Afcon. Its not WC, but stop with all this that Argetina does not have great players. Even Greece won EC 2004. They dont have great TEAM, and Messi naturaly isnt grown up to be Captain yet. They have Aguero, Tevez, Di maria, Higuain, Collocini, Gaitan,....and lots of others.

Fact is that Argentina is not Barca and Messi is not that succesfull because of it.

For me Zidane will be best player ever realy...CL, World cup, Euros, he was beast in RM AND Juve, key for all trophies.

[The only place to be 11,313]

4. YOU HAVE TO WIN WC TO BE CONSIDERED THE GREATEST!

I disagree. The World Cup simply isn't the premier competition in football anymore.

[Rmpr 8,977]

I disagree. The World Cup simply isn't the premier competition in football anymore.

It is not about being the best (which still is), it is about being in the same group of amazing players that have won it. One has to excel its game at the most to win it and they usually only have 3 or 4 chances of winning it. It is not like UCL where in one (of the many times you play it) year you can do a Liverpool or a Chelsea.

Messi himself said a couple of times he wont settle until he wins it.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It is not about being the best (which still is), it is about being in the same group of amazing players that have won it. One has to excel its game at the most to win it and they usually only have 3 or 4 chances of winning it. It is not like UCL where in one (of the many times you play it) year you can do a Liverpool or a Chelsea.

Messi himself said a couple of times he wont settle until he wins it.

'The same group of amazing players that have won it'

There are plenty of players who have a World Cup winners' medal who simply aren't that great. The standard of football in the Champions League is now higher than the World Cup in my opinion, and I think Messi might actually be the best player in the best football team of all time.

Now I don't know that for sure as I wasn't alive to see players like Pele in the flesh which is why arguments about who's the greatest are pretty tough to resolve. I just think we need to recognise the criteria has probably changed in the last 50 years.

[Rmpr 8,977]

'The same group of amazing players that have won it'

There are plenty of players who have a World Cup winners' medal who simply aren't that great. The standard of football in the Champions League is now higher than the World Cup in my opinion, and I think Messi might actually be the best player in the best football team of all time.

Now I don't know that for sure as I wasn't alive to see players like Pele in the flesh which is why arguments about who's the greatest are pretty tough to resolve. I just think we need to recognise the criteria has probably changed in the last 50 years.

It has not!

World Cup is UCL without the possibility of super teams with great chemestry, all of the players are there (even the ones that arent in Europe), there are not many chances to win it, neutral stadiums, biggest world wide crowd (everysingle football fans watch it, cant say that about UCL).

All of the above make it way more challenging and when I say "select group of player", I mean the ones that we considered great and have made a super impact in their titles.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It has not!

World Cup is UCL without the possibility of super teams with great chemestry, all of the players are there (even the ones that arent in Europe), there are not many chances to win it, neutral stadiums, biggest world wide crowd (everysingle football fans watch it, cant say that about UCL).

All of the above make it way more challenging and when I say "select group of player", I mean the ones that we considered great and have made a super impact in their titles.

Weird - that Spanish team seems to have pretty great chemistry, although that's mainly down to it largely being the Barcelona team.

Regardless, I simply don't regard international football as being that important anymore. It's certainly more competitive nowadays with more emerging nations who have simply gotten better at the game (which is something Pele didn't have to contend with) but the level of competition at club level is still higher.

Messi is going to be a three-time Ballon d'Or winner (at least). The fact that he hasn't won a World Cup really isn't a factor in judging how good he was.

[Spike 12,049]

LOL. They're the biggest chokers in Rugby.

In the past yes, but as of right now they are pretty unbeatable. Don't worry, this is just a flash in the pan, they'll go back to losing finals 40-0 but winning every other game 126-0 soon.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Weird - that Spanish team seems to have pretty great chemistry, although that's mainly down to it largely being the Barcelona team.

Regardless, I simply don't regard international football as being that important anymore. It's certainly more competitive nowadays with more emerging nations who have simply gotten better at the game (which is something Pele didn't have to contend with) but the level of competition at club level is still higher.

Messi is going to be a three-time Ballon d'Or winner (at least). The fact that he hasn't won a World Cup really isn't a factor in judging how good he was.

What people cant seem to understand is that in the first two World Cups that he won, Brazil wasnt the force it is now. We had come from a shameful 2-1 defeat in 1950 and our team was pretty average, I mean, it wasnt the underdog but it wasnt the favourite. Just like Messi`s Argentina, it isnt the best team but no one will be shocked if they win it. No one can argue Messi is a girl when we look at his performances at WC and Copa America.

Just because you dont rate international football, it doesnt mean it is not important. English are very indiferent when it comes to their national team, but you are the exception (Spanish, Portuguese, Swedish, Hollands, Brazilians and Argentineans all care about their teams). I agree that for 4 years everyone only worries about club football (and for the right reasons), but when the WC arrives, the world simply stop to watch it (just like the Olympics). It is still the most prestigious tournament, not as much as 50 years ago (definetly agree), but still the creme de la crem.

Ballon d'Or only compares present players, it is not an argument. Pele was banned from a lot of individual prizes because he would win it everytime, so Messi does not impress by winning "Best Players Award".

[The only place to be 11,313]

What people cant seem to understand is that in the first two World Cups that he won, Brazil wasnt the force it is now. We had come from a shameful 2-1 defeat in 1950 and our team was pretty average, I mean, it wasnt the underdog but it wasnt the favourite. Just like Messi`s Argentina, it isnt the best team but no one will be shocked if they win it. No one can argue Messi is a girl when we look at his performances at WC and Copa America.

Just because you dont rate international football, it doesnt mean it is not important. English are very indiferent when it comes to their national team, but you are the exception (Spanish, Portuguese, Swedish, Hollands, Brazilians and Argentineans all care about their teams). I agree that for 4 years everyone only worries about club football (and for the right reasons), but when the WC arrives, the world simply stop to watch it (just like the Olympics). It is still the most prestigious tournament, not as much as 50 years ago (definetly agree), but still the creme de la crem.

Ballon d'Or only compares present players, it is not an argument. Pele was banned from a lot of individual prizes because he would win it everytime, so Messi does not impress by winning "Best Players Award".

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But if the WC is so important, I'd suggest Zidane is the greatest player of all time.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But if the WC is so important, I'd suggest Zidane is the greatest player of all time.

2nd for me, but that would make a very good debate. A much closer one than with Messi...

[The only place to be 11,313]

2nd for me, but that would make a very good debate. A much closer one than with Messi...

He's definitely the best player I've seen, but I wasn't alive when Pele was playing so I have to go by video footage only which has it's limitations.

[Beepu 1,714]

In the past yes, but as of right now they are pretty unbeatable. Don't worry, this is just a flash in the pan, they'll go back to losing finals 40-0 but winning every other game 126-0 soon.

Aha, yeah to be really honest I was rooting for France in the worldcup. Even though im a New Zealand resident i dont really like the allblacks, not sure why maybe i get the barca feel from them since theyve been unbeatable for the past 2 years now(i only like the haka because its so foreign to me as an asian), and recently they have not been convincing with their wins after Graham Henry left. Every Kiwi on the land seems to hate Quade Cooper though.

LOL. They're the biggest chokers in Rugby.

Not trying to defend but AB at all but even if they were chokers, in the WC Australia was not even that good so AB>Wallabies is true ATM for me.