Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[Thor 2,685]

I think we aren't as far off as people are making. 

Most of us here are emotional wrecks because we love the club so much. But it really isn't as dire (outside of the results). 

We are at the tipping point IMO, where things start falling where they should. It isn't a case of changing 50% of it all. It is about tweaking and fine tuning. We won't be winning it all, but this side is a few tweaks and some consistency away from challenging for top 4-6. 

TBH - People complaining about not getting Felix and Dusan are the same ones that didn't want them before the season started. It isn't a squad/player problem. We can score goals - just like any other team can. Brighton don't have a "proven" goalscorer, and neither do plenty of other teams, so the excuse is just bollocks. 

We lack consistency and confidence. Poch needs to set up an attacking side and let the cards play out how they may.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Thor

[Superblue 6,372]

Haven't been on here for a few weeks but I do think Poch should be afforded some time. I don't think we're playing particularly poor at the moment, and we really should be a few more points better off if we could actually score a goal or two. I can understand the grievances at some of his decisions in personnel but at the very least at present we're very strong defensively. Only City and Liverpool have conceded less goals than us so far, and that side of our game will keep us in matches or help us grind out results over time. It's easy to think letting the handbrake off will suddenly turn us into this free flowing, goal crazy team when that simply won't happen because the whole squad lacks established goal scorers outside of Nkunku. Opening the team up will however leave us significantly more susceptible defensively.

When I watch us, it reminds me at present of an international team. A group of talented individuals who are chucked together and expected to perform in sync with one another immediately. There's flashes and periods of promise, but ultimately a frustrating degree of inconsistency. The problem is we're not playing the equivalent of other international teams, and instead much more experienced and drilled teams.

From our starting XI against Villa, only Thiago Silva was playing for the club more earlier than last summer. 2 from 15 with Chilwell if you include the subs that came on. That's quite a ridiculous player turnover that won't be afforded the time and patience it requires because of the money spent on doing so. Having that many new players and a new manager put together isn't going to click this quickly. We could very easily have another season of frustration and mid table mediocrity, but at some point the owners, directors, etc are going to have to clench their teeth and put some faith into the decisions they have made. There's clearly been a long term plan in mind with the investment in players made, so there should also be no surprise that long term plan isn't ripping up trees 5 games and 2 months in. They've already made a huge backtrack so early on by dismissing Potter, if they were going to cut Poch short, then it's going to make things incredibly difficult moving forward with regards to the ability to attract the right people to the club.

It's easy to forget how much of a banter club Arsenal were for the first 12-18 months under Arteta, and in fairness to the higher ups there, they held on to their beliefs and are in a much better position now as a result.

The biggest issue right now for Poch is the lack of experience within that group of players. It's clear when things aren't going well as they are currently, that the players need that touch of experience to calm situations or make decisions in a clinical nature. If we don't get a goal in the first half hour, it just feels that we're simply not scoring today and as a result naturally the opposition grow in confidence and stature themselves. He's looking to the bench to draw inspiration and again, it's littered with young players being burdened with huge responsibility and pressure to come on and change games. 

I do believe there will be a time or moment when it just clicks because there is a lot of potential and raw talent in the group of players we have. Present Liverpool or City with those chances we had today and they'd be 2 or 3 goals up on Villa and manage the game to victory. We'll have the odd games where it will happen and everything will go in, but unfortunately at present we'll have inconsistencies too.

 

[Reddish-Blue 2,488]

7 hours ago, Superblue said:

It's easy to forget how much of a banter club Arsenal were for the first 12-18 months under Arteta, and in fairness to the higher ups there, they held on to their beliefs and are in a much better position now as a result.

It's also easy to forget that Arsenal didn't spend 200+ million on their midfield whilst they were in that rebuilding phase. 

If we didn't have Caicedo, Enzo and these high priced signings, I wouldn't mind 12-18 months of rebuilding and I'm sure the manager in charge would be given time for that rebuild to happen but the problem is, when you go to the market and invest heavily, every fan and pundit out there expects immediate results. 

 

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

13 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

It's also easy to forget that Arsenal didn't spend 200+ million on their midfield whilst they were in that rebuilding phase. 

If we didn't have Caicedo, Enzo and these high priced signings, I wouldn't mind 12-18 months of rebuilding and I'm sure the manager in charge would be given time for that rebuild to happen but the problem is, when you go to the market and invest heavily, every fan and pundit out there expects immediate results. 

 

Aye I always find Arsenal as an extremely poor example for this. Or for why we should give managers such as Lampard or Potter time. They are always the go to example. 

They are a shite example for what we are going through just now because firstly, they weren’t a team that been in 6 major cup finals in nearly 3 seasons (or a team that had won 20 or 21 trophies in the last 20 years) before they went the way they did and secondly, they didn’t spend £1 billion on players in 3 transfer windows. Nobody has spent that much £ so quickly and turned out as awful. Ever. Bar us - so we are first for that.

 

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

11 hours ago, Thor said:

I think we aren't as far off as people are making. 

Most of us here are emotional wrecks because we love the club so much. But it really isn't as dire (outside of the results). 

We are at the tipping point IMO, where things start falling where they should. It isn't a case of changing 50% of it all. It is about tweaking and fine tuning. We won't be winning it all, but this side is a few tweaks and some consistency away from challenging for top 4-6. 

TBH - People complaining about not getting Felix and Dusan are the same ones that didn't want them before the season started. It isn't a squad/player problem. We can score goals - just like any other team can. Brighton don't have a "proven" goalscorer, and neither do plenty of other teams, so the excuse is just bollocks. 

We lack consistency and confidence. Poch needs to set up an attacking side and let the cards play out how they may.

I envy your optimism but I am afraid the absolute opposite is the case. From pre season on there were two scenarios possible:

The one where we hit the ground running, build up massive hype with this young team gaining confidence and growing as players and ending up challenging for top 4.

And then the one where we get tons of injuries, nothing clicks, everyone goes hiding in their shell, all the young players regressing, losing all confidence and ultimately their market value by immersing in their loser mentality. No leaders on or off the pitch, least in the directors box, everyone is clueless , blaming each other, complete disarray and we end up fighting relegation.

Unfortunately the latter scenario is the one unfolding. Sure we could still get lucky, our two only genuine U38 world class players RJ and Nkunku come back fully fit, take responsibility and drag us out of the swamp. but if they don’t, if they - god forbid -end up perma wrecked, there is a real chance this goes further south from here.

There is a sizeable probability this entire 1bn generation of youth goes completely down the drain. We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them. Not all by themselves among other prospects on a ship without captain or direction. We might very well be finished as a top club for the rest of the decade. I am not trying to be alarmist here but accepting this possible reality will stop a lot of hurt.

it might be tempting but anyone who thinks this is just a blip and everything will be fine in a few weeks is deluding themselves. What we see on the pitch is only the tip of the iceberg. Everything points to there being even greater turmoil behind the scenes. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

Think he will be gone in January. No way he finds a way to get through the Oct-Dec period unscathed. 

[DH1988 1,346]

The run of games coming up are an absolute gauntlet which will only compound the issue(s) further, we really needed to do a United here and squeeze the points out somehow like they are, albeit from dodgy referee calls mainly, irrespective it's a daunting time for Poch and I can't help but look at how 180 degrees we looked in preseason.. Mentality was there and pressing every single ball.

[TheHulk 2,400]

He doesn't give me any confidence he can turn this around, with Tuchel I had this feeling here zilch.

[NikkiCFC 8,285]

We all agree Poch is way better coach than Lampard.

Lamps got top4 in 19/20 season with based on minutes they played this lineup:

Kepa 24

Azpi 29

Chris 23

Zouma 24

Alonso 28

Jorginho 27

Kovacic 25

Mount 20

Pulisic 20

Willian 30

Abraham 21

A lot of minutes also for very young players like James 19, Tomori 21, CHO 18. But he also used some experienced players like Kante, Rudiger, Giroud.

We still have now Silva, Chilwell, Sterling for experienced players so not sure that can be used as main reason why we are so bad now.

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

We are very solid defensively now, Lamps team was conceding a lot of goals. The main difference is scoring goals. That team scored 69 league goals, this one if continue like this will be around 35 goals.

Abraham scored 15 league goals, Willian and Pulisic 9, Giroud 8 and Mount 7. This is top5 goalscorers that season with 48 goals. Our whole squad cannot score that per season now.

Question is why Jackson, Sterling, Mudryk... cannot do that? If Nkunku is fit and Jackson is not horrible in front of the goal we would have different conversation now.

Really a couple of small details... Enzo scores penalty and WH loss is a win... Yesterday on 0:0 Jackson and Sterling missed one on one. Against Bournemouth we hit the post twice. Again Sterling and Jackson.

Nottingham again unreal miss from Jackson. We beat Luton, Liverpool is fair result. But from WH, AV, NF and Bournemouth instead of 12 points we got 1. I just said why, couple of small details. 

We have same expected goals as Spurs. But difference is they score we do not. 

Like I said Nkunku injury was big blow, Jackson conversation rate is horrible and not having another experienced striker was mistake. Sterling also should have scored more. Even Chilwell had 2 golden chances.

Fans always put too much onto results but bigger picture is much more positive.

Luton game aside we scored 2 goals in 5 games and have around 15 big chances missed. When analyzing our results we really should not look further than that.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by NikkiCFC

[Vegetable 830]

11 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

There are probably couple of reasons. I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa...

 

Truth is, people are never happy and while some of those players were frustrating to watch, Jorginho was one dimensional, yet quality passer, Willian output was better, than anyone we've got later and only dropped off at the very end, Alonso was universally hated, but so far even his doubtful quality wasn't matched here. People on this board bashing every player, but it doesn't mean they are suddenly Championship quality. Actually, it only happened when a wish of big lot of our fanbase came true, everyone was sold and we have gotten actual non-PL level squad.

But the important thing is Tammy, Zouma, Mount or Pulisic had season of their life back then and the important question is how came? Was it just luck, or something else?

Giroud was essential when we were struggling in the front line and I'll say it again, it was way too optimistic to let him go. Fabregas situation all over again. Still, that squad was, well, squad. Are we actually balanced and well cooperating team now, I can't say yet.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Vegetable

[Strike 7,474]

2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Think he will be gone in January. No way he finds a way to get through the Oct-Dec period unscathed. 

this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

[Strike 7,474]

https://x.com/CFCPys/status/1706328075259040094?s=20

[DDA 9,924]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

https://x.com/CFCPys/status/1706328075259040094?s=20

Clearlake... how about you study this 🖕

[robsblubot 3,595]

4 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

We bought them all on potential, not ability. They were always only gonna fulfill that potential in a well run club and squad with a competent manager and leading figures to mould them.

This is a pretty non-debatable statement tbh. Young players demand an already built team to develop to their potential.
I'd add leaders... we are also missing players with a strong competitive streak who would fight nonstop.

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

I do not buy that team was better. People never thought Tammy was good enough to lead the line, majority never liked Willian, Jorginho, Alonso, Zouma, Kepa

As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 25, 2023 by robsblubot

[NikkiCFC 8,285]

20 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

 

As quoted from the post above, there is a clear confusion here around current ability vs potential ability. They are NOT the same thing. Real life is not Football Manager -- the most unrealistic aspect of FM is regarding how easy and quick young players develop.

Personally I think one very easy way to assess players is merely see where they where, and where they went after their stint with us. With the exception of Zouma, they were all better (Willian just got old), yeah. Kepa is a tossup. This removes some of our personal bias.

Alonso is a funny one; I was one of the few praising his *game winning* ability; players who can score goals need to be praised. Very few players are capable of doing that, so they need to be valued.
Azpi (for Aleti) just had a strong game against Real yesterday... 🤷‍♂️

Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Would prefer if you answer actual point of my post but ok. That is like me only quoting your last sentence and telling you Azpi played only 25mins last night.

I always liked Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho btw... And who were better? Willian at Arsenal? Alonso? Jorginho barely plays... They all gave us their best years. After they went downhill...  Just like Mount and Havertz for us were 5 or 6/10 and now they are even lower.

Lampard also put 5,6 very young and not experienced players. Mount, Abraham, Tomori, James all came from Championship.

We are compering 30yo Willian of that season and current Sterling 28 who was always more reliable goalscorer.

How many people would take Abraham back?

We are 14th with 5 points after 6 rounds. We would be 2nd with 16 if Enzo hit his pen, and Jackson and Sterling are on 50% conversation rate which is nothing special. Tammy was hitting goals, Jackson is failing. Nothing deeper.

Lampard was not let down by his attackers unlike Poch. Only difference. This is our state. Top5 would be amazing. I feel talk about Sanchez, Disasi, Gallagher, Caicedo, Colwill, Poch, formation is unnecessary and not where any problem is.

 

It's fair to just point out that Azpi played 25 min; and I would point out that his presence in our children's squad alone, plus perhaps coming on after Gusto got a red yesterday might have made a difference. 🤷‍♂️

Please ignore details, that's my point: just take where the players play. Players who are at top clubs under big wages earned that. It's a very competitive market... almost auction-like. That helps removing bias.

It's hard for me to respond to your post because I don't agree a whole lot with some of the premisses there; nor do I think speaking about Pochettino is very important right now. Lampard's career speaks for itself.

For example, statements like, "We are very solid defensively now" make no sense to me in a fluid sport like football. If that's truly the case for us, that D and A are completely different things, then indeed we are light years from City and Arsenal.

There is no doubt in my mind that Tammy is a better striker than Jackson right now. Would I want Tammy back? if you asked me before the window, nope lets go for better targets (multiple! better targets), like Jackson himself and 1-2 more experienced players for rotation/support.
Right now, hell yeah Tammy would definitely help esp considering the absurd lack of options up front.

We miss A LOT of the players who left. I totally understand that some could not be retained--forced exit and all that, so that's besides the point. I still think the club, esp new ownership isn't blameless for that.

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

this is not like lampard/tuchel/potter. if he ditches this conservative approach, there is a team there which can still rescue this season.

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

34 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Will the board feel that way?

I can see him sacked in January, interim in the meantime, finish 15th, Flick comes in, does the same stupid shit of conservative football/playing players out of position and he too gets sacked. 

Never ending cycle. 

I don't disagree that it's a potential outcome.

I think you got cause and consequence inverted there; Poch does not play the way he plays because he wants to, but because he believes he has to. Same way a new manager would arrive, take one look at this pitiful squad lacking in all areas, full of children and do exactly the same thing.

For example, I think Chilwell does not play because of Mudryk.

Edited September 25, 2023 by robsblubot