Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[Vesper 30,219]

Chelsea is wrong environment for Pochettino to recreate Spurs feel-good factor

https://theathletic.com/5457418/2024/05/02/mauricio-pochettino-Chelsea-tottenham/

By this point in Mauricio Pochettino’s first season at Tottenham Hotspur, things were already looking up.

Spurs had 57 points with five games left of the 2014-15 season, and had moved up to sixth in the league. Harry Kane had just scored his 30th goal of his breakthrough season. They finished the season without a trophy and without Champions League football, but that was beside the point. Pochettino had already succeeded in the tasks that underpinned everything else: changing the mentality, changing the habits and creating bonds between the players — and between the players and the supporters.

That sense of unity, excitement and optimism fuelled Spurs’ rise over the second half of the last decade. There is nothing quite like that feeling of being at the start of a journey, knowing that you are on the right track but not knowing exactly where you will end up. That is what Tottenham have been trying to get back to this season under the management of Ange Postecoglou.

Pochettino, meanwhile, has been trying to build that same unity, optimism and sense of direction at Chelsea, a club still looking for their post-Roman Abramovich identity. In Pochettino, they had a manager who could create it.

But with five games to go in his first season, no one could honestly say that Chelsea are in as good a place as Spurs were in May 2015. Their league record is worse, with 48 points from 33 games, even if they have had two good runs in the cups. There has been some recent improvement, with one league defeat in 10, but that was a painful 5-0 thumping at Arsenal. They will likely finish seventh or eighth, better than last year, but not exactly the resurgence fans were hoping for.

What is missing from Pochettino’s Chelsea this season is that sense of shared purpose throughout the club that marked out his first season at Spurs. Even with the growing grumblings among some Spurs fans about Ange Postecoglou and his methods, there is still a far more tangible sense of unity and stability at Tottenham than there is at Chelsea. There is no speculation about whether Postecoglou will be in charge at the start of next season.

For those of us who predicted that Pochettino would be a big success at Stamford Bridge, this forces us to ask why it has been so difficult to create an identity and a shared ethos at Chelsea. If there was a question over whether this job would be more like Spurs or Paris Saint-Germain for Pochettino, the expectation was that it would ultimately be closer to the former. That has not proven to be the case.

So what explains the discrepancy? Why is it that, when Pochettino sowed his seed at Tottenham, it bore fruit but when he tried the same at Chelsea it has not yet taken root? What is it about Stamford Bridge that has made it such rocky ground?

One thing that Tottenham never had a lot of during Pochettino’s era was money and there has been no shortage of that at Chelsea during the Todd Boehly-Clearlake era. The most money Spurs spent on a player under Pochettino was £55million on Tanguy Ndombele, and he only started seven league games for Pochettino before his dismissal. Chelsea, meanwhile, have plenty of players — Enzo Fernandez, Moises Caicedo, Mykhailo Mudryk — signed for far bigger fees. And yet this squad is less than the sum of its parts.

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Maybe part of the issue comes down to power. Looking back at the Pochettino era at Tottenham, what was so striking was how streamlined the operation was. Franco Baldini was still there in Pochettino’s first season but when he left, there were remarkably few decision-makers on football matters at the club. Just Pochettino, Levy, and initially Paul Mitchell, later replaced by Steve Hitchen. It was a tight circle and it meant that it was easy to get things done.

Chelsea used to be like that in the back end of the Abramovich era, when Thomas Tuchel could work closely alongside Petr Cech and Marina Granovskaia to make decisions on players. But the new owners have seen the growth of a different structure, with not only multiple owners but two sporting directors and an overwhelming sense of too many voices and too much politics. The simple decision-making processes at Spurs must look very far away now.

The evidence of this is clear in the playing squad itself. For all the money spent on Chelsea, it remains a strikingly unbalanced squad, one that does not look much closer, two transfer windows in, to playing a recognisable form of Pochettino football. Partly this is down to quality: ask yourself how many of the Chelsea squad would be sought after by the rest of the ‘Big Six’ based on of their performances this season. Cole Palmer, obviously. Conor Gallagher probably. Malo Gusto maybe. But beyond that?

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This is also to do with the type of players that Chelsea have signed. Everyone knows the style of football that Pochettino wants to play: pressing high, winning the ball back quickly, positional attack, width from the full-backs. And yet the squad at his disposal has never looked consistently able to do that.

Full-back has been an issue all season, with Reece James barely available, and Ben Chilwell only playing a bit more. Gusto has looked good but Chelsea have often been lacking on the other side, especially when Pochettino had to play Levi Colwill there to provide extra defensive cover. In his first season at Spurs, Pochettino already had a young Ben Davies, Kyle Walker and Danny Rose in the full-back positions.

At centre-back, Chelsea have needed to keep relying on Thiago Silva, now 39 years old and set to leave Stamford Bridge at the end of the season. None of the other centre-backs have convinced — Wesley Fofana’s absence through injury has not helped — and Chelsea have only kept six clean sheets in the league all season. They have been involved in some thrilling games — 4-4 against Manchester City, 4-3 against Manchester United, 2-2 with Aston Villa last week — but you wonder whether that is where they want to be almost one year in.

Perhaps the biggest issue comes in midfield. Pochettino’s Spurs used to physically dominate opponents in the middle of the pitch, with Eric Dier, Mousa Dembele and eventually Victor Wanyama playing there — but for all the money Chelsea have spent, they struggle to dominate games, get counter-attacked easily and never look like overpowering opponents.

Given the amount of money they have spent on midfielders, it beggars belief how little control they have in that area. It should be remembered that Romeo Lavia, the only natural No 6 they have bought, has barely played due to injury.

But there is another issue beyond the individual profiles of the players, the lack of power, the lack of size, the lack of a left-back or a centre-back or a No 6 or a No 9. And that is the dynamic of the dressing room. We assumed at the start of the season that Pochettino would create the same atmosphere at Chelsea that he had at Spurs, where every player looked willing to run through brick walls for him. While Pochettino is certainly popular with the players — who have spoken about the fact they want him to stay — he does not look as much of a dominant figure here as he did after one year at Spurs, someone who sets the tone for the whole club every single day.

Perhaps that Tottenham connection has been a barrier to his relationship with the Chelsea fans, which has made everything else harder.

One theory is that this comes down to leadership from the dressing room, or the willingness of the players to push on behalf of the manager’s ideas. While Pochettino oversaw a generational shift at Spurs, he was also blessed with plenty of young players who were the willing building blocks for his era. Hugo Lloris had already been France captain for two years when Pochettino arrived at Spurs. Jan Vertonghen and Dembele, like Lloris, had arrived in 2012 and were fully settled into the environment. Dier and Davies signed in 2014 but were unusually mature young players who commanded respect quickly. Walker had already won PFA Young Player of the Year, Kane and Ryan Mason had been around the club for years.

So when Pochettino arrived at Spurs, there were at least some foundations to build on, a new generation of responsible young players who had been at the club just long enough to understand how it all worked. But at Chelsea, the turnover of players has been so frantic that they barely have that structure. Lloris was an integral figure to Pochettino’s Spurs, the go-between from the coaches to the players, speaking to every player in whichever language they wanted and always gauging the mood of the camp. Chelsea’s official captain is James and, while he has been unfortunate with injuries this season, he is not a Lloris-type figure even when fit. The vice-captain is Ben Chilwell and ultimately Gallagher has worn the armband for much of this season even given the ongoing uncertainty about his own future.

There has been so much change at Chelsea that instilling any clear ethos looks an almost insurmountable challenge, like trying to hold together a political party being pulled in too many directions at once. It almost makes you wonder whether in hindsight the best time for Pochettino to take the job would have been when Thomas Tuchel was sacked in September 2022, back when they still had the core of the 2021 Champions League-winning side, players with a bit more experience who could have ensured more stability on the pitch.

No manager can control his own timing in football, but Pochettino taking over in 2023 rather than 2022 has given him an even more daunting rebuilding job, as he tries to magic order out of chaos. Taking over Tottenham from Tim Sherwood 10 years ago has probably never looked as easy.

(Top photo: Richard Heathcote/Getty Images)

[Fulham Broadway 17,332]

''Against a team like Tottenham is never easy but today was fantastic – full credit to the players in the way they approached the game and the first half. In the way we tried to defend and in the way we tried to play I think it was fantastic. I think it was the first time in the season that I felt so happy because it is the moment after 10 months that the team start to realise how we need to compete.

I don’t know if it’s the best performance but the most important is the feeling [we have]. All negative circumstances that show that we are doing things well, but this was the click to say that we need to compete better, how? Be connected with the game.

If you see today Noni Madueke was amazing in how he helped the fullback. I think the whole team in both phases was connected. A few weeks ago we were talking about what has happened at Chelsea. It’s only one phase and we want to play into the feet with the ball and then run the defensive line, it was unbalanced the situation. And the standard was so, so low and all the process we were talking is about time and some luck to have this type of result to really make the players believe that this is the way [forward].''

MP

[Mário César 1,280]

so keep or fire him?

IDK, tbh...

[TheHulk 2,479]

42 minutes ago, Mário César said:

so keep or fire him?

IDK, tbh...

Sack.

[MoroccanBlue 5,383]

50 minutes ago, Mário César said:

so keep or fire him?

IDK, tbh...

I mean he's dealt with a pretty achievable task at the moment. We have a favorable run to finish 6th and if we do, we'd just need City to win the FA Cup which is very possible that they do. 

We qualify for the Europa League then. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

''Against a team like Tottenham is never easy but today was fantastic – full credit to the players in the way they approached the game and the first half. In the way we tried to defend and in the way we tried to play I think it was fantastic. I think it was the first time in the season that I felt so happy because it is the moment after 10 months that the team start to realise how we need to compete.

I don’t know if it’s the best performance but the most important is the feeling [we have]. All negative circumstances that show that we are doing things well, but this was the click to say that we need to compete better, how? Be connected with the game.

If you see today Noni Madueke was amazing in how he helped the fullback. I think the whole team in both phases was connected. A few weeks ago we were talking about what has happened at Chelsea. It’s only one phase and we want to play into the feet with the ball and then run the defensive line, it was unbalanced the situation. And the standard was so, so low and all the process we were talking is about time and some luck to have this type of result to really make the players believe that this is the way [forward].''

MP

I wouldn't call Madueke amazing in attack, but he certainly did help a lot in D.
I conceded that I erred when I compared him to Mudryk in the game thread. Madueke is a footballer trying to improve and performing the team tasks. Whether he will be good enough long term is yet to be seen just as it was a question mark for Tammy not long ago.

Evidently he was there to help a young an inexperienced RB, which only makes his teamwork effort today even more impressive.

Poch STAY! 😆

[Fulham Broadway 17,332]

9 hours ago, robsblubot said:

I wouldn't call Madueke amazing in attack, but he certainly did help a lot in D.
I conceded that I erred when I compared him to Mudryk in the game thread. Madueke is a footballer trying to improve and performing the team tasks. Whether he will be good enough long term is yet to be seen just as it was a question mark for Tammy not long ago.

Evidently he was there to help a young an inexperienced RB, which only makes his teamwork effort today even more impressive.

Poch STAY! 😆

Yeah dont agree with everything Podge says but have always advocated Madueke is more of a rough diamond than Mudryk - but both have the potential to come really good in the next year or two.

Agreed think it would be detrimental to dump Poch right now. Spuds werent poor but we overwhelmed them until their manager galvanised them for 2nd half, that we weathered and then got the 2nd. Imagine how we would be without having 14 injured....

[lucio 5,418]

11 hours ago, Mário César said:

so keep or fire him?

IDK, tbh...

Only advocate keeping him if you’re happy never winning anything 

even if we improve under Poch we won’t win a single trophy , man is a loser and has bottled every chance at silverware he’s had in this country 

[robsblubot 3,595]

9 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Yeah dont agree with everything Podge says but have always advocated Madueke is more of a rough diamond than Mudryk - but both have the potential to come really good in the next year or two.

Agreed think it would be detrimental to dump Poch right now. Spuds werent poor but we overwhelmed them until their manager galvanised them for 2nd half, that we weathered and then got the 2nd. Imagine how we would be without having 14 injured....

Yeah I strongly disagree about Mudryk because I don't see the skill. The tight control of the football isn't there.
Mudryk is lightweight, no aerial game,  has a poor first touch, and average passing ability... I think he's one of the worst wingers I've seen in the PL.

Still think Madeueke's ceiling is a bit lower than anything "diamond" worded 🙂 as he also does not have that tight control, but he does have far more tools than Mudryk.

Edited May 3, 2024 by robsblubot

[lucio 5,418]

Madueke could potentially be a nice backup , mudryk doesn’t belong at this level and needs offloading unfortunately 

[Fulham Broadway 17,332]

Sublime through ball for Nico last night by the Ukrainian, but Mudryk generally has the first touch of rapist. 

I reckon if he was at Goonerville Arteta would have him under control and he'd be more measured. 

On a wider note what was with the mental shooting into row Z last night by many players ? like the ball was full of helium

[YorkshireBlue 3,279]

10 hours ago, lucio said:

Only advocate keeping him if you’re happy never winning anything 

even if we improve under Poch we won’t win a single trophy , man is a loser and has bottled every chance at silverware he’s had in this country 

TBF to poch he was at Tottenham, conte and Jose didn't win anything there either, granted Jose was sacked before he had the chance, but still Conte did nothing at Tottenham and won the league here.... Yes he won the league at psg which some say is a given, but TT couldn't win the league at BM which is also normally a given. I just think comparing the different scenarios doesn't do any one justice or is at all a fair comparison, but even you will have to admit in his first season a final and if we finish 6th and get European football is a hell of an achievement given the fact the age and the amount of injuries, on top of the amount of new players to the club and to the league.

[lucio 5,418]

39 minutes ago, YorkshireBlue said:

TBF to poch he was at Tottenham, conte and Jose didn't win anything there either, granted Jose was sacked before he had the chance, but still Conte did nothing at Tottenham and won the league here.... Yes he won the league at psg which some say is a given, but TT couldn't win the league at BM which is also normally a given. I just think comparing the different scenarios doesn't do any one justice or is at all a fair comparison, but even you will have to admit in his first season a final and if we finish 6th and get European football is a hell of an achievement given the fact the age and the amount of injuries, on top of the amount of new players to the club and to the league.

Getting to the final was no achievement , very easy run and any half decent manager with a winning mentality would have won the final 

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

11 hours ago, lucio said:

Only advocate keeping him if you’re happy never winning anything 

even if we improve under Poch we won’t win a single trophy , man is a loser and has bottled every chance at silverware he’s had in this country 

Poch is here for transitional period of 2, 3 years. Nobody would win PL or CL with this team either. And he is happy to do this period while best managers would moan and leave in current situation. 

The way I see our project is that you suffer for 3, 4 years but are building the team to win 4, 5 PLs in a row. You don't think that's worth it? In general only PL and CL are trophies of huge significance. Under Roman after Jose's double in 2005 and 2006 we won big trophies in: 2010, 2012, 2015, 2017 and 2021. 5 biggest trophies in 16 years. That's great but new owners are taking different approach and could end up genius. Problem is many fans don't see bigger picture and are impatient. We are on right track imo. Results will come and shouldn't worry us right now. In guys like James, Gusto, Colwill, Fofana, Enzo, Caicedo, Gallagher, Lavia, Nkunku, Palmer I see players capable of dominating PL. Klopp is leaving, Pep will soon as well just in time when our young players mature. Our time is coming. Someone else will come and pick all the fruits from Poch foundation. 

Edited May 3, 2024 by NikkiCFC

[King Kante 1,643]

3 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Poch is here for transitional period of 2, 3 years. Nobody would win PL or CL with this team either. And he is happy to do this period while best managers would moan and leave in current situation. 

The way I see our project is that you suffer for 3, 4 years but are building the team to win 4, 5 PLs in a row. You don't think that's worth it? In general only PL and CL are trophies of huge significance. Under Roman after Jose's double in 2005 and 2006 we won big trophies in: 2010, 2012, 2015, 2017 and 2021. 5 biggest trophies in 16 years. That's great but new owners are taking different approach and could end up genius. Problem is many fans don't see bigger picture and are impatient. We are on right track imo. Results will come and shouldn't worry us right now. In guys like James, Gusto, Colwill, Fofana, Enzo, Caicedo, Gallagher, Lavia, Nkunku, Palmer I see players capable of dominating PL. Klopp is leaving, Pep will soon as well just in time when our young players mature. Our time is coming. 

Well yes and no. We aren't going to be challenging for any serious trophies in the near future and yes, Poch will likely be a safe pair of hands for the next year or two. However, we also have to look at the dangers of keeping him. First and foremost for me is the mentality that will be left. Poch seems to think it is fine to play for penalties in a final against the Dippers youth team - that for me was unforgivable and is a dangerous precedent to set. Second, he appears to be very bad at spotting players that need dropping. Sanchez, Disasi and Sterling should all of been dropped way before they were. As a result, he could end up prolonging the development of the squad because he cannot judge a player properly. Third, his tactics haven't got across to the side much - people get excited about the Everton and Spuds games but forget quickly that we were bummed by Le Arse and could hold onto leads against Burnley and fecking Sheffield, thus I am not sure the players will develop enough tactical awareness/knowledge under him.

For me, just sticking with him because he is a 'safe pair of hands' is also fought with danger. 

[YorkshireBlue 3,279]

20 minutes ago, King Kante said:

Poch seems to think it is fine to play for penalties in a final against the Dippers youth team

While I see your point I must point out our team still had a lower average age then Liverpool did, also they have trained with a standard and a way of playing across all ages at Liverpool so the system and style of play is already embedded in to Liverpool's youth system, that's what happens when you keep a manager around for long enough is that the style and system will be embedded into young players and they can just slot in. So in short yes we lost to Liverpool's youth team but they had a far bigger advantage over us with the points I've just made, the fact our youth team is now our main team is more of the problem than poch imo.

[King Kante 1,643]

37 minutes ago, YorkshireBlue said:

While I see your point I must point out our team still had a lower average age then Liverpool did, also they have trained with a standard and a way of playing across all ages at Liverpool so the system and style of play is already embedded in to Liverpool's youth system, that's what happens when you keep a manager around for long enough is that the style and system will be embedded into young players and they can just slot in. So in short yes we lost to Liverpool's youth team but they had a far bigger advantage over us with the points I've just made, the fact our youth team is now our main team is more of the problem than poch imo.

I get what you're saying but in that game we were on top until extra time where we went Conservative which was clearly from the manager. He has done this on numerous occasions this season as well (City away being another prime example.) For me, Poch plays 'scared' in that he will 'play out for a draw' rather than go for the win when things get tight. For me, that really isn't the type of mentality I want instilled into a young team. 

Edited May 3, 2024 by King Kante

[lucio 5,418]

9 hours ago, YorkshireBlue said:

While I see your point I must point out our team still had a lower average age then Liverpool did, also they have trained with a standard and a way of playing across all ages at Liverpool so the system and style of play is already embedded in to Liverpool's youth system, that's what happens when you keep a manager around for long enough is that the style and system will be embedded into young players and they can just slot in. So in short yes we lost to Liverpool's youth team but they had a far bigger advantage over us with the points I've just made, the fact our youth team is now our main team is more of the problem than poch imo.

klopp joined liverpool with a great track record of  prior success , so he earned the extra patience. you can't just waste years on coaches like poch, lampard or potter who have never done anything. We could still be employing lampard with this logic 

[YorkshireBlue 3,279]

7 hours ago, lucio said:

klopp joined liverpool with a great track record of  prior success , so he earned the extra patience. you can't just waste years on coaches like poch, lampard or potter who have never done anything. We could still be employing lampard with this logic 

What? I think you misunderstood what I'm saying, I'm not saying keep poch or sack him, I'm saying klopp has been there years and installed a system and a style across all age groups, look at the managers we have had over the years the good the bad the world class, no one has managed to establish them selves or there philosophy into this club properly, we relied on instant success then when it failed we went in a new direction, which worked for years granted, clearly this isn't the case anymore, teams like fergies man utd, Wenger's arsenal, klops pool, peps city, everything these clubs did was installed into there youth and these kids could walk into the first team and know exactly what there roles are. Poch may or may not be the right guy I don't get paid enough to make them decisions that's down to the club, but what I will say is if this is the road they are going to take and properly invest in a manager, they better get there fucking act together and pick a man and stand by him.

[YorkshireBlue 3,279]

16 hours ago, King Kante said:

I get what you're saying but in that game we were on top until extra time where we went Conservative which was clearly from the manager. He has done this on numerous occasions this season as well (City away being another prime example.) For me, Poch plays 'scared' in that he will 'play out for a draw' rather than go for the win when things get tight. For me, that really isn't the type of mentality I want instilled into a young team. 

Also great points, but to me I see that in a lack of trust in his teams ability rather than his own, from the comments and press conferences recently I kinda get this vibe as well, but now it seems to be changing so who knows