Jorginho

[DDA 9,570]

Massive fan of Jorginho but have to say he has clearly gone of the boil recently. He isn't and will never be of the same class as Busquets. If we want to challenge the elite (that is a huge if) ... then we need to think about upgrading in this position. 

[Jase 43,479]

He is the vice captain, a supposedly leader in the dressing room but went all Verratti and got a stupid yellow card that will keep him out of the second leg.  

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

He is the vice captain, a supposedly leader in the dressing room but went all Verratti and got a stupid yellow card that will keep him out of the second leg.  

Again being vice captain and getting a booking it means nothing at all, these things happen, how many times did Cahill, Terry etc all get bookings or worse?

Plus if him getting booked is one of the biggest issues or a problem from that game then we clearly watched different games. If it wasnt Jorginho youd not make a fuss I reckon...

Would be more concerned about the performance as a whole, the defence and team shape again after all the praise v Spurs, Mount and Barkleys performances especially and Alonso's red all much much bigger issues. 

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, OneMoSalah said:

Again being vice captain and getting a booking it means nothing at all, these things happen, how many times did Cahill, Terry etc all get bookings or worse?

Plus if him getting booked is one of the biggest issues or a problem from that game then we clearly watched different games.

He got booked for dissent, which is stupid considering the injury problems we've had. He even had to be held back by Azpi!

Obviously there are much bigger problems from yesterday's game but it's little things like that that just explains the individual problems in the team.

 

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

Just now, Jason said:

He got booked for dissent, which is stupid considering the injury problems we've had. He even had to be held back by Azpi!

Obviously there are much bigger problems from yesterday's game but it's little things like that that just explains the individual problems in the team.

 

Perhaps but its not as if nobody gets booked for dissent in other teams or leagues or as if players getting booked for dissent is a major issue that only we have. Its part and parcel of modern day football because referees are so protected from players giving them a bit back or disagreeing with their decisions.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

Perhaps but its not as if nobody gets booked for dissent in other teams or leagues or as if players getting booked for dissent is a major issue that only we have. Its part and parcel of modern day football because referees are so protected from players giving them a bit back or disagreeing with their decisions.

Still doesn't mean it's okay to not criticize players when they pick up a yellow in such stupid fashion. 

[OneMoSalah 8,615]

18 minutes ago, Jason said:

Still doesn't mean it's okay to not criticize players when they pick up a yellow in such stupid fashion. 

Again though if it was anyone else would it be as big a problem? Jorginho seems to get some sort of special criticism everytime we lose for something even if it is minimal such as a booking for dissent. Be it 1 bad pass or a wee booking that hardly altered the game or this or that. Theres still an heir of the whole Sarri's man scapegoat sort of thing around him I feel. He isnt immune to criticism but he seems to get it more or less every week for wee stupid things that if it was anyone else it wouldnt be mentioned or an issue in my eyes.

Even more annoying nobody's brought this comment up that Frank said this after the game

"Our choice of pass in the final third has to improve."

I mean really?! What does he expect? He started 2 of our most inconsistent players in advanded positions vs Bayern Municu ffs. Wont go into it as we've been discussing in Mason's thread and Ross' for a long long time about these things. I mean as bad as it sounds not starting Willian, who showed vs Barcelona 2 seasons ago over 2 games he can hurt top teams and even in some of the minutes he had yesterday he looked more purposeful thsn both, then says that. He is starting to sound like Ole Solskjaer a lot. Particularly after big games. Excuses after excuses despite the things hes bringing up being directly created by his selections. Questions need to be asked.

[Jase 43,479]

28 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Again though if it was anyone else would it be as big a problem? Jorginho seems to get some sort of special criticism everytime we lose for something even if it is minimal such as a booking for dissent. Be it 1 bad pass or a wee booking that hardly altered the game or this or that. Theres still an heir of the whole Sarri's man scapegoat sort of thing around him I feel. He isnt immune to criticism but he seems to get it more or less every week for wee stupid things that if it was anyone else it wouldnt be mentioned or an issue in my eyes.

Pardon me if I expect the vice captain to be a little more control of himself in the big moments. Agree to disagree.

28 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Even more annoying nobody's brought this comment up that Frank said this after the game

"Our choice of pass in the final third has to improve."

I mean really?! What does he expect? He started 2 of our most inconsistent players in advanded positions vs Bayern Municu ffs. Wont go into it as we've been discussing in Mason's thread and Ross' for a long long time about these things. I mean as bad as it sounds not starting Willian, who showed vs Barcelona 2 seasons ago over 2 games he can hurt top teams and even in some of the minutes he had yesterday he looked more purposeful thsn both, then says that. He is starting to sound like Ole Solskjaer a lot. Particularly after big games. Excuses after excuses despite the things hes bringing up being directly created by his selections. Questions need to be asked.

And no one seems to question why we are so easy to score against. No one seems to bother why we, as a team, have not made life difficult for opponents to score against us (even if you take the individual fuck ups along the way). Lampard always seems to gloss over that by talking about our attacking problems instead and even when he does talk about the goals conceded, he'll just casually put them down to individual mistakes, like they're not important. He's not always wrong about that but the collective defending leaves a lot to be desired a lot of the time. The pressing is some times all over the place, the defensive lines aren't compact, it's easy for opponents to play through us etc. For instance and I said this in the Bayern match thread, Kante & Hazard aside, our starting XI last night wasn't much different to the starting XI that played Barcelona in the R16 1st leg 2 years ago but the defensive organization was night and day.

XI vs Barca at SB
Courtois - Rudiger/Christensen/Azpi - Alonso/Kante/Fabregas/Moses - Hazard/Willian/Pedro

vs

XI vs Bayern at SB
Caballero - Rudiger/Christensen/Azpi - Alonso/Jorginho/Kovacic/James - Barkley/Mount/Giroud

[Special Juan 27,104]

His form is more worrying than his discipline.

[NikkiCFC 7,587]

Not sure what people expect from him? 

He made great pass against Spurs for first goal. Last night also for Mount chance. 3-4-3 is not his system. Stats show he's our best defensive player with interceptions etc... 

He has his flaws of course but if he plays for City or Barca he would be very praised player. 

[chippy 342]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Not sure what people expect from him? 

He made great pass against Spurs for first goal. Last night also for Mount chance. 3-4-3 is not his system. Stats show he's our best defensive player with interceptions etc... 

He has his flaws of course but if he plays for City or Barca he would be very praised player. 

Some of pur players get singled out after a bad game and Jorginho is one of them. Others, like Rudi, are getting away way with being consistently bang average/crap week in week out. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,200]

5 hours ago, Special Juan said:

His form is more worrying than his discipline.

They go hand in hand. 

A disciplined performance meaning he picks the right pass, doesn’t force a situation, doesn’t over press and get caught out, etc. 

He’s been guilty of all those things for a while now. 

[Special Juan 27,104]

20 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

They go hand in hand. 

A disciplined performance meaning he picks the right pass, doesn’t force a situation, doesn’t over press and get caught out, etc. 

He’s been guilty of all those things for a while now. 

I'm not sure what he is for this team, and I base that not even on last night but as an overall of the season. 

[SUNZ 155]

On 26/02/2020 at 0:53 PM, NikkiCFC said:

Not sure what people expect from him? 

He made great pass against Spurs for first goal. Last night also for Mount chance. 3-4-3 is not his system. Stats show he's our best defensive player with interceptions etc... 

He has his flaws of course but if he plays for City or Barca he would be very praised player. 

That is the most misleading stat bandied about. To add a little context, Jorginho intercepts the ball sometimes but in order to do this he runs around like a headless chicken and leaves acres of space in the midfield. He makes a few interceptions by doing this but when the opposition get by him easily (this happens far, far more often than a Jorginho interception) they have the entire midfield to run into. And of course Joringho has zero recovery pace so he leaves the team in a vulnerable position by gambling as often as he does. Jorginho has to try and win the ball early, well before the opposition can get turned because when they do he stands no chance of blocking or stopping anybody. If anybody squares him up they get by him 99.9% of the time.

We have to sell him this summer and for his sake he needs to go back to Italy. This league is not for him and we're not going to improve as long as he is in our first 11.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

His passing is overrated. He can only give short passes, but any pass with length is either too short, too far, or towards the stomach instead of ball to feet. Maybe I've been spoiled by the quality of fabregas in the past but they're not in the same league in passing. Jorginho is just an average passer imo

 

[DDA 9,570]

He is starting to look extremely suspect in Lampards Chelsea. Weird, because he started soo well.

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

His passing is overrated. He can only give short passes, but any pass with length is either too short, too far, or towards the stomach instead of ball to feet. Maybe I've been spoiled by the quality of fabregas in the past but they're not in the same league in passing. Jorginho is just an average passer imo

Jorginho is a poor man's Fabregas. At least Fabregas could compensate his defensive flaws with his excellent passing ability but Jorginho can't do that. 

[killer1257 3,282]

Jorginho is a poor man's Fabregas. At least Fabregas could compensate his defensive flaws with his excellent passing ability but Jorginho can't do that. 

I would agree in some parts of your statement, but Jorginho's defensive contribution is underrated. I think in this thread, there are stats that prove my point.

I still prefer having Cesc over Jorgi because Cesc and Hazard for many years solved our creativity problem. Mount and Jorgi clearly don't have the creative output of Cesc that is really needed at a top Club. When you look at Man City. They have David and Bernardo Silva, Mahrez, KDB and Gündogan. That is a insane level of creativity. We only have Kova that gives us a little bit of that.

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