The Conte Thread

[WNDS 502]

45 minutes ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

Games like the one tonight don't reflect to well on him at all. Look at Liverpool's line up tonight:

Which makes his excuse of lack of backing in the transfer market all the more shallow and downright laughable. Liverpool attacked City ferociusly in that 1st half. Not just when they had the ball but without the ball they pressed City high up the pitch and didn't give them room to breath and to recyle possession. De Bruyne and Silva were stifled. 

Conte on the other hand rarely utilizes a high press. He goes into games against teams like City with the mentality that his team has to "suffer". When City have the ball we immediately put 10 men behind the ball and hope for some misplaced pass by City to pounce for the sporadic counter-attack. 

We have a better squad than Pool, a team that were title winners before Conte's arrival. It's obvious Conte's biggest problem this season is tactical and he doesn't have the big advantage of playing 1 game a week to help the players with preparation and rest from his rigourous training methods. Conte's rotations, in game tactics, personnel use and player management have been well below the required standard this season. Not getting top 4 is just unacceptable. 

 

Pretty much agree with all of this (although I don't dislike Conte as a manager anywhere as much as you seem to ), but that last part in particular needs emphasising.

My issue with Conte hasn't been that we've found ourselves unable to compete for the highest honours this season (an issue that's probably due to the board's huge cock-up regarding our non-Kante CM position), but rather that he's 'successfully' talked our squad down to the extent that (a few games aside) our players seem to have had the belief sucked out of them; as a result, we've basically failed to make top-four with a squad that is COMFORTABLY up to that standard (top-four/five/six in Europe is another matter entirely, of course).

I feel that the same can be said of our manager: Conte himself is up to that standard; he's not exceptional, but he's very good. He's also very stubborn and absolutely convinced that his assessment of the relative merits of our current squad is correct, and this appears to have caused him to adopt inflexible ways of thinking as regards our team (e.g. an insistence on playing 3-at-the-back formations no matter what). He really should have accepted how things were once the summer transfer window closed (perhaps resolving to move elswhere this coming summer) and knuckled-down with the squad he actually has at his disposal, instead of spending far too much of his time moaning at all-and-sundry about how he wanted a different one. Or otherwise he should have left in protest. One or the other, because it's become increasingly evident as this season has progressed that Conte has taken his eye off the ball and wound-up in a no-man's-land, even if he hasn't realised it himself; the results are plain for all to see, however.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

13 minutes ago, WNDS said:

 

Pretty much agree with all of this (although I don't dislike Conte as a manager anywhere as much as you seem to ), but that last part in particular needs emphasising.

My issue with Conte hasn't been that we've found ourselves unable to compete for the highest honours this season (an issue that's probably due to the board's huge cock-up regarding our non-Kante CM position), but rather that he's 'successfully' talked our squad down to the extent that (a few games aside) our players seem to have had the belief sucked out of them; as a result, we've basically failed to make top-four with a squad that is COMFORTABLY up to that standard (top-four/five/six in Europe is another matter entirely, of course).

I feel that the same can be said for our manager: Conte himself is up to that standard; he's not exceptional, but he's very good. He's also very stubborn and absolutely convinced that his assessment of the relative merits of our current squad is correct, and this appears to have caused him to adopt inflexible ways of thinking as regards our team (e.g. an insistence on playing 3-at-the-back formations no matter what). He really should have accepted how things were once the summer transfer window closed (perhaps resolving to move elswhere this coming summer) and knuckled-down with the squad he actually has at his disposal, instead of spending far too much of his time moaning at all-and-sundry about how he wanted a different one. Or otherwise he should have left in protest. One or the other, because it's become increasingly evident as this season has progressed that Conte has taken his eye off the ball and wound-up in a no-man's-land, even if he hasn't realised it himself; the results are plain for all to see, however.

Agree @WNDS I don't really know what he's moaning about tbh. It's weird. Look at Klopp today :

You don't see him moaning about lack of transfer funds every time. Klopp wasn't scared to bring on Solanke tonight. In a freaking UCL quarter final game against City with 20 mins to go + extra time. Our own Solanke. Conte will never.

I always thought of Conte as not being a cheque-book manager but based on his career so far he seems like a builder who can't manage his building once he finishes construction. We saw it at Juventus as you stated in the other thread. Conte got Juventus back to a great level. Allegri was the one who took that team to a new level. Conte seems to have problems re-inventing himself which eeringly similar to Mourinho. His moans about transfer spendings are just a cover-up for his failings. He's been all over the place tactically this season which has kind of surprised me. 

[Superblue 6,331]

1 hour ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

Agree @WNDS I don't really know what he's moaning about tbh. It's weird. Look at Klopp today :

You don't see him moaning about lack of transfer funds every time. Klopp wasn't scared to bring on Solanke tonight. In a freaking UCL quarter final game against City with 20 mins to go + extra time. Our own Solanke. Conte will never.

I always thought of Conte as not being a cheque-book manager but based on his career so far he seems like a builder who can't manage his building once he finishes construction. We saw it at Juventus as you stated in the other thread. Conte got Juventus back to a great level. Allegri was the one who took that team to a new level. Conte seems to have problems re-inventing himself which eeringly similar to Mourinho. His moans about transfer spendings are just a cover-up for his failings. He's been all over the place tactically this season which has kind of surprised me. 

Completely agree that tonight has cast a huge shadow on Conte. The way Liverpool played tonight completely showed up the way we played against City this season both home and away, and that Liverpool team tonight you cannot say is littered with all round better players than ours (although they clearly suit the system Klopp is utilising). 

There are a couple of potential arguments. The first is that this is clearly a team in Klopp's image and he has a big say over their signings, whereas we don't know just how much swing Conte has in this department. The other is if it was the other way round, would Klopp have had the time at Chelsea that he has had at Liverpool to build this team, bearing in mind that they still haven't won a trophy. I can't help but feel that there is a direct correlation between the pressure manager's are under here and the lack of young players coming through. 

However I still think overall this season has shown Conte in an extremely negative light and you're right, he does seem to be more similar to Mourinho then he would probably like to be. I do think that a different type of manager would be needed in a rebuild/longer term planning scenario, but the big question is whether the Board will give a manager time and patience to do so.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Tbh Klopp was hellbent on getting Dijk and Keita at any cost. It resulted in Pool paying 110m on those two. 

Not sure if board would back up Conte like that. 

Yeah we have spend quite alot on players and there is no denying the quality is there, but if Conte doesnt get players he wants, its a big problem. 

But in any case, we have better squad than what Conte showed in both city games. It was a cowardly approach. 

The problem with Conte is that he either gets the candy he wants or he will go absolutely crazy. There is no middle way. 

We have seen it in bust with Costa and Luiz, we also see it how he handles things with board. 

Its ridiculous though, how much he changed. Last season, he was passionate, he led the team like 12th player. He was truly brilliant. Not just on pitch, but also off, so much class and respect. He was also far from defensive except for some games in second half when we needed pragmatic approach.

This season, he talks crap on conferences, looks distracted on pitch, cant motivate and lead. And the results are obvious. And his style of being ultra defensive is absolute piss to watch. 

I mean its obvious he didnt get players he wanted and tbh any manager has right to be pissed when he gets the likes of Drinkwater, Barkley, Emerson, Giroud. 

But you handle it behind the doors. Conte goes all out and damage is unrepairable. Its clear he wont win a war against the board. 

There is no point of return with Conte. 2018 was absolute disaster for him and I dont see how we can get along. 

 

[Tomo 21,685]

4 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Completely agree that tonight has cast a huge shadow on Conte. The way Liverpool played tonight completely showed up the way we played against City this season both home and away, and that Liverpool team tonight you cannot say is littered with all round better players than ours (although they clearly suit the system Klopp is utilising). 

There are a couple of potential arguments. The first is that this is clearly a team in Klopp's image and he has a big say over their signings, whereas we don't know just how much swing Conte has in this department. The other is if it was the other way round, would Klopp have had the time at Chelsea that he has had at Liverpool to build this team, bearing in mind that they still haven't won a trophy. I can't help but feel that there is a direct correlation between the pressure manager's are under here and the lack of young players coming through. 

However I still think overall this season has shown Conte in an extremely negative light and you're right, he does seem to be more similar to Mourinho then he would probably like to be. I do think that a different type of manager would be needed in a rebuild/longer term planning scenario, but the big question is whether the Board will give a manager time and patience to do so.

It's hard to tell how Roman will react if we go down the purist route and it needs time because most seasons under his leadership where we were failing to match expectations we were really horrifically failing at the point of AVB, Jose, Scolari etcs sackings instead of going down in a blaze of glory so to speak. There's only so far been one season in the Roman era were we have won nothing but at the same time seen some quite evident progress in the right direction which was Jose's first year back and he got the time he needed.

[manpe 10,857]

8 hours ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

Agree @WNDS I don't really know what he's moaning about tbh. It's weird. Look at Klopp today :

You don't see him moaning about lack of transfer funds every time. Klopp wasn't scared to bring on Solanke tonight. In a freaking UCL quarter final game against City with 20 mins to go + extra time. Our own Solanke. Conte will never.

I always thought of Conte as not being a cheque-book manager but based on his career so far he seems like a builder who can't manage his building once he finishes construction. We saw it at Juventus as you stated in the other thread. Conte got Juventus back to a great level. Allegri was the one who took that team to a new level. Conte seems to have problems re-inventing himself which eeringly similar to Mourinho. His moans about transfer spendings are just a cover-up for his failings. He's been all over the place tactically this season which has kind of surprised me. 

If we had Milner, Henderson and Ox in midfield, some random names like Robertson, Trent-Alexander and Lovren in defence, you can be sure as hell we'd have parked the bus. What Klopp did yesterday was very impressive. We have never been like that, always survival first rather than being the one doing the killing. I'm jealous.

[Styles 9,790]

Klopp preaches being proactive and taking the game to the opposition (no matter who they're playing).

We have coward managers who say shit like we will suffer and instill fear into their own players.

[Superblue 6,331]

6 hours ago, Tomo said:

It's hard to tell how Roman will react if we go down the purist route and it needs time because most seasons under his leadership where we were failing to match expectations we were really horrifically failing at the point of AVB, Jose, Scolari etcs sackings instead of going down in a blaze of glory so to speak. There's only so far been one season in the Roman era were we have won nothing but at the same time seen some quite evident progress in the right direction which was Jose's first year back and he got the time he needed.

Yes and there have also been signs under Jose and Conte that they were given far more time and patience than any of the previous managers despite how bad this and Jose's last season have been. 

It would be interesting if Conte wasn't so combustible and confrontational if he would have survived beyond this season, which looks almost a certainty that he won't now given the whole atmosphere at the club.

[DDA 9,570]

I'm a fan of Conte and was backing him all the way but even I have conceded to the facts that he is one dimensional. We need a philosopher not a coach.

[!Hazard! 3,394]

1 hour ago, DDA said:

I'm a fan of Conte and was backing him all the way but even I have conceded to the facts that he is one dimensional. We need a philosopher not a coach.

In case Liverpool go through, the UCL semifinals will made up of four teams managed by coaches, not by philosophers. Zidane, Valverde, Heynckes and Klopp are all coaches, not revolutionary philosophers like Pep, Sarri or Sacchi. Or at least, I wouldn't call Klopp's gegenpress a philosophy. The first three of the semifinalists are able to get the best out of group of superstars and turn them into a collective unit whilst the latter is able to turn a mediocre squad into something far better than simply the sum of its parts. Essentially, they are doing what Ferguson did at United. No fancy ideology, just effective football. Last time a philosopher won Champions League was in 2011, that was 7 years ago and arguably Pep had the greatest squad in history at his disposal at the time. After that it's been Di Matteo, Heynckes, Ancelotti, Enrique and Zidane – all coaches.

What we need is someone like Klopp and I honestly thought Conte would be that person. However he continues to field players that are physically unable to do what Liverpool players are doing. Alonso and Fabregas among others need to go, and eventually we need to stop playing with three at the back if we want to play proactive and aggressive football.

 

If Klopp was the manager at this club he would probably play something like this:

 

Hazard - Morata - Pedro

Willian - Kante - Midfielder like Ox/Milner (maybe even Bakayoko or Drinky? Imagine if we could put Keita here next season)

Emerson - Rudiger - Christensen/Luiz - Azpilicueta

Courtois

 

That's more than good enough to play aggressive, attacking-minded heavy metal football and beat teams like City the way Liverpool do.

 

[Alabama 1,992]

20 minutes ago, !Hazard! said:

In case Liverpool go through, the UCL semifinals will made up of four teams managed by coaches, not by philosophers. Zidane, Valverde, Heynckes and Klopp are all coaches, not revolutionary philosophers like Pep, Sarri or Sacchi. Or at least, I wouldn't call Klopp's gegenpress a philosophy. The first three of the semifinalists are able to get the best out of group of superstars and turn them into a collective unit whilst the latter is able to turn a mediocre squad into something far better than simply the sum of its parts. Essentially, they are doing what Ferguson did at United. No fancy ideology, just effective football. Last time a philosopher won Champions League was in 2011, that was 7 years ago and arguably Pep had the greatest squad in history at his disposal at the time. After that it's been Di Matteo, Heynckes, Ancelotti, Enrique and Zidane – all coaches.

What we need is someone like Klopp and I honestly thought Conte would be that person. However he continues to field players that are physically unable to do what Liverpool players are doing. Alonso and Fabregas among others need to go, and eventually we need to stop playing with three at the back if we want to play proactive and aggressive football.

 

If Klopp was the manager at this club he would probably play something like this:

 

Hazard - Morata - Pedro

Willian - Kante - Midfielder like Ox/Milner (maybe even Bakayoko or Drinky? Imagine if we could put Keita here next season)

Emerson - Rudiger - Christensen/Luiz - Azpilicueta

Courtois

 

That's more than good enough to play aggressive, attacking-minded heavy metal football and beat teams like City the way Liverpool do.

 

that's why I pissed about content... keep playing terrible wingbacks in Moses and Alonso while expecting positive results... lol

[DDA 9,570]

7 hours ago, !Hazard! said:

In case Liverpool go through, the UCL semifinals will made up of four teams managed by coaches, not by philosophers. Zidane, Valverde, Heynckes and Klopp are all coaches, not revolutionary philosophers like Pep, Sarri or Sacchi. Or at least, I wouldn't call Klopp's gegenpress a philosophy. The first three of the semifinalists are able to get the best out of group of superstars and turn them into a collective unit whilst the latter is able to turn a mediocre squad into something far better than simply the sum of its parts. Essentially, they are doing what Ferguson did at United. No fancy ideology, just effective football. Last time a philosopher won Champions League was in 2011, that was 7 years ago and arguably Pep had the greatest squad in history at his disposal at the time. After that it's been Di Matteo, Heynckes, Ancelotti, Enrique and Zidane – all coaches.

What we need is someone like Klopp and I honestly thought Conte would be that person. However he continues to field players that are physically unable to do what Liverpool players are doing. Alonso and Fabregas among others need to go, and eventually we need to stop playing with three at the back if we want to play proactive and aggressive football.

 

If Klopp was the manager at this club he would probably play something like this:

 

Hazard - Morata - Pedro

Willian - Kante - Midfielder like Ox/Milner (maybe even Bakayoko or Drinky? Imagine if we could put Keita here next season)

Emerson - Rudiger - Christensen/Luiz - Azpilicueta

Courtois

 

That's more than good enough to play aggressive, attacking-minded heavy metal football and beat teams like City the way Liverpool do.

 

Dude, do you have to expose my lack of observation soo publicly!! 😢

[manpe 10,857]

8 hours ago, !Hazard! said:

Hazard - Morata - Pedro

Willian - Kante - Midfielder like Ox/Milner (maybe even Bakayoko or Drinky? Imagine if we could put Keita here next season)

Emerson - Rudiger - Christensen/Luiz - Azpilicueta

Courtois

Thinking about it, such a line-up could actually work well. Willian doing aggressive pressing and quick transition in midfield, Kante doing what he does while being the ultimate pressing player and a solid jack of all trades supporting. This midfield 3 has energy and penetration, our usual midfield two is balls. We need to get rid of 3-4-3, literally no top team plays that.

[Henrique 9,133]

Liverpool performance yesterday should be enough to make people talking about Conte not receiving enough players. Geez, look at Liverpool midfield: Henderson, Milner and Ox. I bet some people would come up and say "Liverpool squad is comfortably better"...right.

[Alabama 1,992]

8 hours ago, Henrique said:

Liverpool performance yesterday should be enough to make people talking about Conte not receiving enough players. Geez, look at Liverpool midfield: Henderson, Milner and Ox. I bet some people would come up and say "Liverpool squad is comfortably better"...right.

they are already insinuating that... that klopp players are well suited to high pressing style of play while our players cannot... ffs looking at Liverpool backline Arnold fucking nobody van dijk lovren and Robertson... 

[manpe 10,857]

2 hours ago, eemanyooel said:

they are already insinuating that... that klopp players are well suited to high pressing style of play while our players cannot... ffs looking at Liverpool backline Arnold fucking nobody van dijk lovren and Robertson... 

They have probably been drilled and trained day and night to adapt to this style. I don't believe they came with the understanding and attributes out of box to play such a style, it's mainly a team effort anyway so the individual is not that important, understanding and cohesion with team is more important and Liverpool have proven that. This is also a reason why they have gotten over Coutinho so well., another individual with understanding what he has to do to keep the machine flowing takes his place.

Last season we also did pressing and quite effectively, but this season we haven't seen any of that, but we know they are capable of this. What I think is holding us back is that we are missing an extra body higher up field to do high pressing consistently against strong opponents, the opponent can easily pass out of the pressing because of the space vacated to accomodate a 3rd CB.

I am quite sure the likes of Robertson and Trent-whatever would be disasters at us, because we put far too much emphasis on individuals rather than team understanding.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Conte will only press the smaller teams and Man United. At the sight of any big team that is adept at playing through the high press, Conte doesn't bother. One of the few big games we've actually high presed in was the game against Barca at Stamford Bridge. For the most part we just defend very deep and put 9 men behind the ball. Coward

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Now that Tuchel rejected us and is going to PSG our focus should be on Jardim, Fonseca, Tedesco, Sarri, Hasenhuttl , Marco Silva or Montella. Luis Enrique, Allegri, Ancelotti and Simeone wll be the same bullshit all over again. They can stay where they are.