Paulinho

[robsblubot 3,595]

1st: Please dont call it Brazilian Serie A, If you want to use the official name use Brazileirao Petrobras. Italian teams are all worse than the top 4, 5 or 6 Brazilian Teams. Juve and Napoli are the only that would challenge the title (they would probably win it).

2nd: I also think we should get Moutinho or something, but that was not what you posted first.

3rd: There is no space for 2 CM in the starting lineup (that was my discussion). If you follow Brazil very closely, you would know that Mano called more players from Brazileirao because in the next international break (wich we dont have), he will only call abroad players.

Since it was friendlies vs Iraq and Japan, nobody gave a damm.

4th: Italy has no money to pay Brazil's wage right now

BACK TO PAULINHO THOUGH.

Personally, I think there is absolutely no comparison between the Italian and the Braizlian leagues. I'm a Gremio supporter and Gremio is tied with Atletico in the second place. Gremio stars include 36-year-old Gilberto Silva (playing as CB), 38-year-old Ze Roberto, and 31-year-old Elano. These players, with the exception of Elano (who was also an European flop) wouldn't get a game in Italy (or any other top league).

There are many examples of old players, European flops, or pretty much just bad players starting for the top sides in Brazil. Not to mention refereeing, which is probably the worst in the world. Neymar and most other forwarders dive and are awarded with free kicks on the slightest contact. Neymar for example, has not been able to deliver internationally. Even in the olympics (playing against U23 sides), he was just another player in the squad. While people look for other reasons, I see refereeing as the main one; defending in Brazil is piss-poor.

Concerning incomes, if you take Neymar out of the picture, as it should be because Santos does not pay him (only a small percentage of his income), the VERY top players make around R$500,000 a month. That's $250,000 a month, which is $115K weekly. While a very good income, that's average for Italian and especially English clubs (pretty sure Russian clubs pay far better as well).

While I agree that the Brazilian league has improved, the improvements have been uneven at best.

So, yes, moving from the Brazilian league to Europe would demand some adapting. Depending on the player, it can be more or less of an issue.

Concerning Paulinho, I haven't seen much of him leaving abroad and all, but he seems like one fine box-to-box midfielder. People currently enamored with sideway passing would certainly prefer other type of players, but I do think players like Ramires and Paulinho can win you the midfield, and when that happens, you are very likely to win the game.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Personally, I think there is absolutely no comparison between the Italian and the Braizlian leagues. I'm a Gremio supporter and Gremio is tied with Atletico in the second place. Gremio stars include 36-year-old Gilberto Silva (playing as CB), 38-year-old Ze Roberto, and 31-year-old Elano. These players, with the exception of Elano (who was also an European flop) wouldn't get a game in Italy (or any other top league).

There are many examples of old players, European flops, or pretty much just bad players starting for the top sides in Brazil. Not to mention refereeing, which is probably the worst in the world. Neymar and most other forwarders dive and are awarded with free kicks on the slightest contact. Neymar for example, has not been able to deliver internationally. Even in the olympics (playing against U23 sides), he was just another player in the squad. While people look for other reasons, I see refereeing as the main one; defending in Brazil is piss-poor.

Concerning incomes, if you take Neymar out of the picture, as it should be because Santos does not pay him (only a small percentage of his income), the VERY top players make around R$500,000 a month. That's $250,000 a month, which is $115K weekly. While a very good income, that's average for Italian and especially English clubs (pretty sure Russian clubs pay far better as well).

While I agree that the Brazilian league has improved, the improvements have been uneven at best.

So, yes, moving from the Brazilian league to Europe would demand some adapting. Depending on the player, it can be more or less of an issue.

Concerning Paulinho, I haven't seen much of him leaving abroad and all, but he seems like one fine box-to-box midfielder. People currently enamored with sideway passing would certainly prefer other type of players, but I do think players like Ramires and Paulinho can win you the midfield, and that happens, you are very likely to win the game.

What you said is half truth. The EXTERNAL FACTORS ARE ABSURD (as I pointed out in many threats already), but the players are pretty good. Our refs are more than crappy, but you havent seen any Asian or African League matches. European flop does not make a player bad. You also can not generalise and compare your old team with the other top teams (Fluminense, Santos, Corinthians, Sao Paulo, Internacional, etc), league table does not necessarily reflect the quality of the team. Is Chelsea behind Arsenal, Spurs and Newcastle just because they finished in better places? Is Gremio better than Corinthians? You are again wrong on the wages, R$200-300k/month is more common than you imagine, VERY TOP players receive R$500k+ (Seedorf is on 700k, and he is not a top5, probably top10).

Yes mate, you know a lot about Italian Football. They dont even have match fixing every year, empty stadiums, shity fields, gambling problems, finacial crysis, etc, etc, etc. Have you take a look at Serie A squads???? I mean, Juve and Napoli are on another level (as I posted, they would win in Brazil), but even Milan, Inter and Udinese are not better than Corinhtians, Santos, Fluminense, Sao Paulo...

I agree with you, I do not see him leaving. However, the threat was open because Chelsea did enquire about him a few days ago.

[Dion 2,476]

What you said is half truth. The EXTERNAL FACTORS ARE ABSURD (as I pointed out in many threats already), but the platers are pretty good. Our refs are more than crappy, but you havent seen any Asian or African League matches. European flop does not make a player bad. You also cant not generalise and compare your old team with the other top teams (Fluminense, Santos, Corinthians, Sao Paulo, Internacional, etc), league table does not necessarily reflect the quality of the team. Is Chelsea behind Arsenal, Spurs and Newcastle just because they finished in better places? Is Gremio better than Corinthians? You are again wrong on the wages, R$200-300k/month is more common than you imagine, VERY TOP players receive R$500k+ (Seedorf is on 700k, and he is not a top5, probably top10).

Yes mate, you know a lot about Italian Football. They dont even have match fixing every year, empty stadiums, shity fields, gambling problems, finacial crysis, etc, etc, etc. Have you take a look at Serie A squads????

I mean, Juve and Napoli are on another level (as I posted, they would win in Brazil), but even Milan, Inter and Udinese are not better than Corinhtians, Santos, Fluminense, Sao Paulo...

I agree with you, I do not see him leaving. However, the threat was open because Chelsea did enquire about him a few days ago.

I think Milan and Inter are still slightly better than the top brazilian teams, even though they're looking bad nowadays. However, the difference isn't as big as it once was.

[robsblubot 3,595]

What you said is half truth. The EXTERNAL FACTORS ARE ABSURD (as I pointed out in many threats already), but the platers are pretty good. Our refs are more than crappy, but you havent seen any Asian or African League matches. European flop does not make a player bad. You also cant not generalise and compare your old team with the other top teams (Fluminense, Santos, Corinthians, Sao Paulo, Internacional, etc), league table does not necessarily reflect the quality of the team. Is Chelsea behind Arsenal, Spurs and Newcastle just because they finished in better places? Is Gremio better than Corinthians? You are again wrong on the wages, R$200-300k/month is more common than you imagine, VERY TOP players receive R$500k+ (Seedorf is on 700k, and he is not a top5, probably top10).

Yes mate, you know a lot about Italian Football. They dont even have match fixing every year, empty stadiums, shity fields, gambling problems, finacial crysis, etc, etc, etc. Have you take a look at Serie A squads????

I mean, Juve and Napoli are on another level (as I posted, they would win in Brazil), but even Milan, Inter and Udinese are not better than Corinhtians, Santos, Fluminense, Sao Paulo...

I agree with you, I do not see him leaving. However, the threat was open because Chelsea did enquire about him a few days ago.

I only measure success by trophies won, and by that Gremio and Corinthians aren't very different, despite Corinthians having far more supporters. Let's not go there though...

Here's my prediction: Corinthians wont be able to contain Chelsea. Pretty much the same way Santos couldn't cope with barca. Or internacional would have fared against Inter (had they not lost to Mazembe first ).

I don't think it's so much about quality of refereeing (which has been poor due to the renewal), but style, which has been the same for decades. I've heard former referees claim that it was a penalty because the attacker "was touched by the defender."

Because of the above (refereeing styles), players like Ramires and Paulinho usually have an easier time adapting abroad, because European leagues demand more dynamism, defensive work, as well as strength (esp the premiere). People don't realize it, but Oscar is also a special player because he is complete.

38-year-old Ze Roberto was just MOTM yesterday against Fluminense in Rio.

BTW, I expect Neymar not to do well in the next world cup precisely because he's staying in Brazil. Which is a shame, because Brazil need him to fulfill his potential.

Let's agree to disagree (on the quality of the Brazilian league).

[Rmpr 8,977]

I think Milan and Inter are still slightly better than the top brazilian teams, even though they're looking bad nowadays. However, the difference isn't as big as it once was.

I really dont think so, looking carefully at their squads, they have the worst teams in the last 2 decades. If big players like Sneijder, Milito, Cambiasso, Cassano, Pato, Boateng and Robinho (etc) were in their best moments I would agree with you. However, that is my opinion, if you still believe they are better, you have the right to do so. We all se football diferent.

If we compare the last to decades: 90s, we had some fucking great teams (Palmeiras, Sao Paulo, Cruzeiro, Corinthians, Gremio, Vasco), but Milan/Juve/Roma/Inter were fantastic also. The small teams left Italian football with a great "win" margin. 00s we were just soooooooo bad, wont even compare. 10s Milan/Roma/Inter are in free fall, Italy in a big financial problem, match fixing scandals, lesser sponsors and tv money. We are improving inside the field (players, coaching, facilities) and we have the money to keep young prospect (we still need to sell some, but they go for a lot) and to make old players return.

Well, that is my point of view.

I only measure success by trophies won, and by that Gremio and Corinthians aren't very different, despite Corinthians having far more supporters. Let's not go there though...

Here's my prediction: Corinthians wont be able to contain Chelsea. Pretty much the same way Santos couldn't cope with barca. Or internacional would have fared against Inter (had they not lost to Mazembe first ).

I don't think it's so much about quality of refereeing (which has been poor due to the renewal), but style, which has been the same for decades. I've heard former referees claim that it was a penalty because the attacker "was touched by the defender."

Because of the above (refereeing styles), players like Ramires and Paulinho usually have an easier time adapting abroad, because European leagues demand more dynamism, defensive work, as well as strength (esp the premiere). People don't realize it, but Oscar is also a special player because he is complete.

38-year-old Ze Roberto was just MOTM yesterday against Fluminense in Rio.

BTW, I expect Neymar not to do well in the next world cup precisely because he's staying in Brazil. Which is a shame, because Brazil need him to fulfill his potential.

Let's agree to disagree (on the quality of the Brazilian league).

WTF??? You just started arguing some strange things...

1st: I was saiyng that you cant say Gremio is better and start comparring their old players (wiho are still good) with Italian football and then generalise to other Brazilian teams. Success and amount of titles are not the same as best team at the moment. Is Loserpool better than Chelsea because it has more BPL? Is Milan better than Barcelona because it has more UCL?

2nd: Club World Club was not discussed.

3rd: You can not say the style is bad (it is, I am quetioning your argument, not your opinion) because you heard former refs saying shit on TV. It is the same with english commentary (or any ohter language), former footballers also say shit on TV.

4th: Who does not realize Oscar is complete?

5th: Neymar wont do well in 2014 just because he stayed. Will Oscar fail, since he went to CFC?

6th: Oscar has not done anything diferent than what he had done in Inter, back then, he was not worshipped by many clubs. Now that he played in the same level for Chelsea, clubs wanted to have bought him. He is only one example, it proves how players are overlooked and underrated in Brazil (by International Media).

7th: I wont agree to disagree, you start saying some untruth stuff about Campeonato Brasileiro and want me to settle?

P.S.: Mods, please move it to a proper threat. I do not know where to put it.

[Dion 2,476]

I only measure success by trophies won, and by that Gremio and Corinthians aren't very different, despite Corinthians having far more supporters. Let's not go there though...

Here's my prediction: Corinthians wont be able to contain Chelsea. Pretty much the same way Santos couldn't cope with barca. Or internacional would have fared against Inter (had they not lost to Mazembe first ).

I don't think it's so much about quality of refereeing (which has been poor due to the renewal), but style, which has been the same for decades. I've heard former referees claim that it was a penalty because the attacker "was touched by the defender."

Because of the above (refereeing styles), players like Ramires and Paulinho usually have an easier time adapting abroad, because European leagues demand more dynamism, defensive work, as well as strength (esp the premiere). People don't realize it, but Oscar is also a special player because he is complete.

38-year-old Ze Roberto was just MOTM yesterday against Fluminense in Rio.

BTW, I expect Neymar not to do well in the next world cup precisely because he's staying in Brazil. Which is a shame, because Brazil need him to fulfill his potential.

Let's agree to disagree (on the quality of the Brazilian league).

That kind of example adds nothing. Ronaldinho was a starter for Milan not too long ago and he sucked last year at Flamengo. Seedorf was an important Milan player aswell, and, although he's doing fine in Botafogo, he's not ripping any team apart. He's probably not even the best midfielder in brazilian league. In fact, Botafogo holds the 11th position. There are examples of players that were nothing short of extraodinary playing in weaker leagues that surplisingly turned out to be awesome players in other (even stronger) leagues. You could even fit Radamel Falcao there. He wasn't that good playing in the weak argentinian league not too long ago.

[The Skipper 20,609]

That kind of example adds nothing. Ronaldinho was a starter for Milan not too long ago and he sucked last year at Flamengo. Seedorf was an important Milan player aswell, and, although he's doing fine in Botafogo, he's not ripping any team apart. He's probably not even the best midfielder in brazilian league. In fact, Botafogo holds the 11th position. There are examples of players that were nothing short of extraodinary playing in weaker leagues that surplisingly turned out to be awesome players in other (even stronger) leagues. You could even fit Radamel Falcao there. He wasn't that good playing in the weak argentinian league not too long ago.

You do realise players can improve if they go abroad?

[Jase 43,479]

Stick to talking about Paulinho people, not the Serie A and/or Brazilian league.

[Dion 2,476]

You do realise players can improve if they go abroad?

But following some people's logic he should have sucked hard at Porto, taking into account he didn't manage anything extraodinary at River Plate, playing in a much weaker league. What I'm trying to say is - looking solely on that aspect is misleading. There are players who even change from water to wine just by taking the switch between two strong leagues.

Saying brazilian league is weak because a 38 year old made his way to MOTM is a stupid argument.

On topic: I think Paulinho is a great player, but we should go after a player to replace Torres. And Corinthians won't let Paulinho leave easily, especially not before the world club cup.

[The Skipper 20,609]

But following some people's logic he should have sucked hard at Porto, taking into account he didn't manage anything extraodinary at River Plate, playing in a much weaker league. What I'm trying to say is - looking solely on that aspect is misleading. There are players who even change from water to wine just by taking the switch between two strong leagues.

Saying brazilian league is weak because a 38 year old made his way to MOTM is a stupid argument.

On topic: I think Paulinho is a great player, but we should go after a player to replace Torres. And Corinthians won't let Paulinho leave easily, especially not before the world club cup.

Fair point, but I don't think anyone's really saying the Brazillian league is weak. In my opinion it's probably top 5. But to then go on and say that the Brazillian league is better than the Italian league because so and so is kind of double standards.

[robsblubot 3,595]

But following some people's logic he should have sucked hard at Porto, taking into account he didn't manage anything extraodinary at River Plate, playing in a much weaker league. What I'm trying to say is - looking solely on that aspect is misleading. There are players who even change from water to wine just by taking the switch between two strong leagues.

Saying brazilian league is weak because a 38 year old made his way to MOTM is a stupid argument.

On topic: I think Paulinho is a great player, but we should go after a player to replace Torres. And Corinthians won't let Paulinho leave easily, especially not before the world club cup.

Just for the record, I wrote no such thing. It was mere example (to add to the many points I made or thought I did) of a player who at 38 dominates in the league.

Also, please re-read what I wrote about Oscar: Oscar will probably do better for Brazil *because* he has moved to a much stronger league, which will help him fulfill his potential. Ronaldinho is shite IMHO; I know people will disagree, but that's how I feel. And I played with him a couple of times (just for fun) when he was 17.

I will not comment on the rest as I've already stated my opinion once.

This discussion is pertinent concerning Paulinho though, because aside from a few showings for Brazil all the data we have on him is from playing in Brazil. Now Corinthians did win the Libertadores Cup which is closer to the European game than the Brazilian league is (far more physical), and Paulinho was a key player for them.

Comparing Paulinho with Romeu is difficult, because they look completely different players: Romeu is slow and seems to work best when sitting deep as a holding mid. Although Paulinho can play as a holding mid, because he's a good marker, he shines in a more versatile role.

[Dion 2,476]

Just for the record, I wrote no such thing. It was mere example (to add to the many points I made or thought I did) of a player who at 38 dominates in the league.

Also, please re-read what I wrote about Oscar: Oscar will probably do better for Brazil *because* he has moved to a much stronger league, which will help him fulfill his potential. Ronaldinho is shite IMHO; I know people will disagree, but that's how I feel. And I played with him a couple of times (just for fun) when he was 17.

I will not comment on the rest as I've already stated my opinion once.

This discussion is pertinent concerning Paulinho though, because aside from a few showings for Brazil all the data we have on him is from playing in Brazil. Now Corinthians did win the Libertadores Cup which is closer to the European game than the Brazilian league is (far more physical), and Paulinho was a key player for them.

Comparing Paulinho with Romeu is difficult, because they look completely different players: Romeu is slow and seems to work best when sitting deep as a holding mid. Although Paulinho can play as a holding mid, because he's a good marker, he shines in a more versatile role.

I see where you are coming from, but the truth is - he's not dominating the league (Ze Roberto). And despite being in the first place of the league, Fluminense isn't displaying a good football as of lately. So that's not such a feat as it may sound. I would put Ze Roberto maybe #9th or #10th best midfielder of the league. Good, but certainly not dominating.

Paulinho is what people like to call in Brazil a modern dm, he doens't lack the defensive skills his position requires but he is technical and talented enough to be a threat when he comes from deep surprising the opposing defenders. And he's still 24. So he may develop more before reaching his peak.

Fair point, but I don't think anyone's really saying the Brazillian league is weak. In my opinion it's probably top 5. But to then go on and say that the Brazillian league is better than the Italian league because so and so is kind of double standards.

Glad to hear you don't think it's weak. But I disagree about being top5, I don't think it's quite there yet. I'd say top10 to be fair, somewhere like 7th or 8th.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Fair point, but I don't think anyone's really saying the Brazillian league is weak. In my opinion it's probably top 5. But to then go on and say that the Brazillian league is better than the Italian league because so and so is kind of double standards.

Nobody said Brazilian League was better.

Serie A has a well deserved glamour that Brazilian League (for lack of organization and competence) does not share. Atm, Italian Clubs are with a long not seen lack of quality, while Brazil is slowly restoring its full quality (60s,80s,90s).

[Henrique 9,133]

Nobody said Brazilian League was better.

Serie A has a well deserved glamour that Brazilian League (for lack of organization and competence) does not share. Atm, Italian Clubs are with a long not seen lack of quality, while Brazil is slowly restoring its full quality (60s,80s,90s).

Brazil is still far away from the quality we had here in 90s.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Brazil is still far away from the quality we had here in 90s.

Mate, it pains me to say that the last decade was lost. Our League only got worse and worse.

What I said is that we are slowly returning to 60s,70s,90s. We are still very far.

Why people always distorce and/or comment on things I did not say?