Oscar

[Severinb 309]

You compared his number of assists to Mata's so you kind of did compare him with Mata unless I'm posting "crap".

Although I am not a fan of stats, you lot who say Oscar is garbage, should clearly see he isn't based on those numbers.

I kind of did but i wrote the post saying that I rate him more than mata as I do and that is why the discussion mata/oscar should not start again from my post!

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Isco has 8 goals and 4 assists this season.

Gotze has 9 goals and 5 assists.

Oscar has 7 goals and 5 assists.

Gotze played 10 games less, Isco played 6 games less. They both changed teams this summer and dont play regular football.

Sure stats arent all, but for comparison Gotze has 90% passing. Oscar has 82%. His passing for one of best #10 is very unbalanced. I expect to have calm and composed #10, Oscar isnt that atm.

But dont get me wrong, I like Oscar and will surely improve, but at the moment, he is still far from what #10 should be, even if he works twice harder, he also needs to be better and more consistent in final third. And obviously not dissapear in games.

Oscar isnt better or worse than Gotze or whoever, time will tell who will be better, but one thing is sure that Oscar needs to step up in his passing acc, creativity, vision etc. The more he creates the better.

[Barbara 15,149]

I think the problem here is the expectation any of us has (I guess I already posted about it, but I could be wrong).

What José expects from his #10 may be different from what other managers do, let alone fans. When he decides to make his main man in the team another AM, it's expected (from him at least) that the other two won't be as decisive as the one guy he's building his team around.

I think Oscar - or at least the Oscar from the first three months - at age 22, is exactly what Mourinho expects from his #10. He knows a boy as young as him and who isn't totally adapted to the league yet, that he'll be inconsistent, but every match Oscar gives his best, so for now that's enough for Mourinho as he's been repeating like a broken record those last few weeks that he's building a team for the future - something he's said many times since he arrived here, but that has been stressed by him lately given his comments about us being candidates, but not favorites to the title (which is a perfect assessment imo - the same applies to Arsenal imo).

So if his eyes are in the future and building a team that next season and the one following it, will be not only a candidate, but a favorite, it means he can overlook Oscar - as well as others' - inconsistency because he's keeping an eye in the prize here, which is long term results. If we don't win the league it won't be because Oscar (or any other AM, including Mata in the many games he's had a chance) didn't create enough chances. If we don't win it it's because we don't have a striker to capitalize the many chances we create every game (with few exceptions). So if the problem isn't Oscar - especially if Hazard makes up for his bad form now - then it means we can wait the boy mature more his game and also complete his adaptation. If you look at Oscar playing for Brazil and Oscar playing for Chelsea there's a gap between both (proof of that is that Oscar's always been better for us in Europe rather than in England, as he feels less the difference when he plays in Europe - especially against Italian and Spanish teams - rather than when he plays English teams) and that's because he isn't completely used to that and let's not forget or disregard the manager instability. He's been here for 18 months and he's already been managed by three different guys with three completely different tactics. Not only he had to adapt to the physicality, the speed, the style, the pitch's size (Brazilian's players are used to having plenty of space because most of our pitches are huge and it makes a whole difference going from big to small - not so much going from small to big), but he also had to adapt to those guys' strategies and in some cases - like with Benitez - he's had to prove his worth while doing all that. Hazard went through a similar process, except Hazard is European and has been playing European football since he was a kid. His adaptation is less overwhelming than Oscar's. European football - maybe except Portugal and Spain, and in the past Italy where the pitches are bigger and the play is less physical - is still very different from Brazil, although the most contrasting style to ours is English and then German.

I agree with whoever says he's been inconsistent (I disagree with those who say he's been terrible. He had an amazing match against Soton as well as Newcastle and some matches between he was fairly good), but I don't understand why people aren't willing to give him more time and keep the comparisons. I get it, he's not good enough for you. He's been good enough for José, he's good enough for me and he's good enough for many fans that are willing to give him time. I still think this has a lot to do with Mata leaving. Mata's ghost has always been fated to leave a bunch of widows behind and it's okay to take a while to get over it, but Oscar was the same while Mata was here and still he displaced Mata from the team based on what the manager expected from them, but also on their performances (and before anyone says Oscar didn't displace Mata because they played in different positions before José, Mata was the CAM when José arrived, whoever José decided to play there instead of him displaced him either from the position or from the starting eleven).

btw it makes really no sense to justify Gotze and Isco's similar stats as them being in a new team. They're both still in the league they've played since they were kids, changing teams would require a few weeks adaptation period... it's more about chemistry and getting used to the new philosophy rather going through an adaptation process. I do think it's relevant to say they've started less than Oscar did.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Oscar displaced ganso from the brazilian NT. Ganso was a creative beast, with nice tricks and flicks but brazil were not a force in this period.

Oscar becomes the new 10, and Neymar becomes a goal scorer and they are now among the top strongest NT sides in the world.

Oscar displaced mata from Chelsea. Mata was a creative beast, with nice tricks and flicks but Chelsea were not a force in this period.

Oscar becomes the new 10, and Hazard becomes a goal scorer and chelsea are now among the top strongest club sides in the league.

Similar??

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Thanks mate for the stats and I have to say i dont think those numbers are near to beeing good enough, mata our last number 10 had way more assists the last two seasons. I really like oscar and think he can become better than mata but I just have the feeling since mou has started coaching oscar he is trying to do to much and score himself instead of passing. And for me those are not qualities a number 10 should have. I hope he cant get more assists and prove himself as a elite passer like mata was!

Mata had those assists in a completely different role. You can't compare the two. Oscar's role requires him to drop deep and often receive the ball around the half way line. How many assists did Mata get for us this season? 1 IIRC and that was from a FK.

EDIT: In this season in the same number 10 role, Mata has 2 assists in 15 appearances and Oscar has 5 in 30 between PL and CL.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Oscar displaced ganso from the brazilian NT. Ganso was a creative beast, with nice tricks and flicks but brazil were not a force in this period.

Oscar becomes the new 10, and Neymar becomes a goal scorer and they are now among the top strongest NT sides in the world.

Oscar displaced mata from Chelsea. Mata was a creative beast, with nice tricks and flicks but Chelsea were not a force in this period.

Oscar becomes the new 10, and Hazard becomes a goal scorer and chelsea are now among the top strongest club sides in the league.

Similar??

We were not a force because we had to deal with player likes Anelkalouda, and managers like AVB.

But as usual there's always amazing defenses of Oscar on this thread...

Isco has 8 goals and 4 assists this season.

This guy warms the bench since the first few months of the season. Surprised he actually has decent stats.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

02

We were not a force because we had to deal with player likes Anelkalouda, and managers like AVB.

02

But as usual there's always amazing defenses of Oscar on this thread...

02

Nope if oscar did it only in chelsea, I will understand your quote. But he did it for Brazil NT and youth team.

His impact is underestimated because he didn't do any tricks and flicks. Not everyone has to be a zidane to have a massive impact for our team. You can be a ballack, a kaka, a muller, an edgar davids, a seedorf, people without 1million assists/chances created but are one of the most important people for their teams.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Nope if oscar did it only in chelsea, I will understand your quote. But he did it for Brazil NT and youth team.

You're totally overstating his impact. He didn't "do" anything, Brazil are Brazil - they were going to return to the top with or without Oscar.

Coutinho or Willian could play in Oscar's position and there will hardly be any difference, it's not like they need him defensively with those beast DM's and the best CB in the world.

[Barbara 15,149]

You're totally overstating his impact. He didn't "do" anything, Brazil are Brazil - they were going to return to the top with or without Oscar.

Coutinho or Willian could play in Oscar's position and there will hardly be any difference, it's not like they need him defensively with those beast DM's and the best CB in the world.

I agree with you, but Oscar has something about him that makes every manager who has him - the exception is only Benitez, but then again that's the FSW we're talking here - to put a lot of trust on him. I don't know if it's his commitment, his work-rate, his personality, or whatever. But everywhere this kid went, managers put a lot of trust on him. Inter, Brazil Youth, Brazil NT (Menezes and Scolari), Chelsea (di Matteo, Mourinho). He must have something else, but I agree with your maybe technically and tactically he'd offer the same as Willian (disagree about Coutinho).

Thing is imo he brought stability for our midfield (Brazil's), he creates a lot of space for the three strikers, and he's very disciplined. I'm not a big Coutinho fan (not saying he isn't good, he's very good, but very young. I wasn't a big fan even when he played for my Internazionale, though I love the kid, but he's light years behind Oscar maturity wise), I think he could offer more than Oscar in the attack, but he lacks many things compared to him too (maturity, going back deep, work-rate, tackles, intelligence (sorry, Oscar's simply more intelligent than Phillipe about reading the game and understanding what's he's supposed to do or not according to the circumstances)). And if we call Oscar inconsistent - which he still is - that's because we haven't been following (some of us are) Coutinho for long periods. He oscillates a lot and he's much less tactically committed than Oscar. I do think Oscar and Willian are all of the same, and Willian has the edge on maturity, consistency and pace. Willian is far from showing us all he's capable of because he's still adapting. Also Willian's personality is quite different from Oscar. Oscar is a quiet fighter, warrior. Willian is a shy person, not only quiet. I think he needs time to adapt even to feel like himself - which explains why he's even better for us than he is for Brazil. I think he might have a few insecurity issues and combined with his shyness, he's afraid of messing up his chances with the NT, as well as with us (but in a lesser scale). Once he's assured of his position on both teams, and in our case adapts to the league, we have a star, that imo offers the same Oscar does and some more (the things I've just said: consistency, maturity, experience, pace)

[kellzfresh 7,226]

02

You're totally overstating his impact. He didn't "do" anything, Brazil are Brazil - they were going to return to the top with or without Oscar.02

02

Coutinho or Willian could play in Oscar's position and there will hardly be any difference, it's not like they need him defensively with those beast DM's and the best CB in the world.

Maybe I am overstating his impact. But I don't know why these managers seem to like oscar and play him in their teams over creative people like ganso, coutinho and mata? Is there something they are seeing that we are not?

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Or has oscar been riding out his luck since the beginning of his career?

[Sheva. 5,373]

Maybe I am overstating his impact. But I don't know why these managers seem to like oscar and play him in their teams over creative people like ganso, coutinho and mata? Is there something they are seeing that we are not?

I agree with you, but Oscar has something about him that makes every manager who has him - the exception is only Benitez, but then again that's the FSW we're talking here - to put a lot of trust on him. I don't know if it's his commitment, his work-rate, his personality, or whatever. But everywhere this kid went, managers put a lot of trust on him. Inter, Brazil Youth, Brazil NT (Menezes and Scolari), Chelsea (di Matteo, Mourinho). He must have something else, but I agree with your maybe technically and tactically he'd offer the same as Willian (disagree about Coutinho).

He's a good character on and off the pitch, who works his socks off every game. Most managers would love to have more of that in their team.

Anyway Oscar is important for Chelsea (and Brazil), just like everyone in our best 11. But i just disagreed with the notion that ours and Brazil's change in fortunes, was mainly down to him.

Also, i'm not the biggest Coutinho fan either, but he's been good this season and probably deserves a shot with the NT team.

[Barbara 15,149]

But it's a very valid point of discussion. Do you really think that Mourinho would still opt for Ramires pace if Oscar contributed more in attack? Of course he wouldn't. Oscar doesn't help out enough in attack, especially in big games, what Oscar brings is work rate and energy so may as well play Ramires whose pace would at least be a threat. Oscar or Ramires, either way they're not going to play incisive passes.

@dee25, couldn't reply to you in the match thread because it was closed.

I think Oscar offers something completely different from what Mourinho expects in those matches. Are there any doubts that we were slightly less dreadful once he came into the match? Our first half (lost the first 18 minutes) was the worst I've seen from us in a long time (only considering this season and the fact I missed the match against WHU). Dreadful seems a nice word to our performance today.

So I think it's only about pace, because I don't see Mata starting any of those matches if he was still here because although much more incisive in the attack he's even slower than Oscar. Mou wanted that block of 4 harassing City in the counter-attack, like a feline attacking the prey, quick, fatal, impossible to handle, but we were lifeless there today, nobody seemed to give a f! except the support. This block of four need four quick guys to make it overwhelming, fast and lethal. Eto'o being a geezer (in the American way of the word) is faster than Ba and we all know Torres is useless, so he goes for the two quick AMs we normally start with plus the versatile-guy - who isn't that versatile imo. I wouldn't play Oscar either, I'd play Schurrle or once he's adapted, Salah. I don't enjoy Ramires in a pivot that much, let alone in the RW. He's dreadful when it comes to passing and making decisions and his finishing is unpredictable and I hope we have a few more matches as bad as this one (as long as it doesn't compromise our scoreline - after all opponents can be even worse) so Mourinho is convinced Ramires isn't half good and efficient in the position as he thinks he is. I do hope from the bottom of my heart Mourinho will use André or Salah in the future and I hope against hope we'll sign a new B2B midfielder next season and relegate Ramires to a squad player... The latter I know will never happen and that will always be my grudge with Mourinho for as long as Ramires stays here.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Thought he looked very bright when he came on yesterday. Actually had some energy and tried to make things happen...

Oh, and didn't get dispossessed every time he touched the ball like Hazard and Willian did!

[Jase 43,479]

Mourinho on Oscar...

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/21/chelsea-jose-mourinho-john-terry-oscar-everton

"Maybe in the last couple of matches Oscar was not the same because in the beginning of the season he was the best player of the team," Mourinho said. "In this moment he is not being a match-winner, he is not scoring goals but he is not playing bad, so no real problems.

"To play at West Brom in the difficult conditions and in the way that the opponent also played, it was not the best game for Oscar to be in the top of his game. But he's a fantastic player, with all our trust and he plays [against Everton.] And hopefully he plays well because if the weather is like this [good] ... Stamford Bridge, a good team like Everton, a team that likes to play football like we do ... I believe he is fine. He's not naturally a physically strong man. He suffers with the accumulation of matches. He suffers with the difficult weather we had. And he's a kid. The talent is there all the time but the physical, top condition to express the quality he has is not always there. So we have to take care of him."

[Barbara 15,149]

"So we have to take care of him"

Aww... Mourinho always speaks so affectionately about Oscar - more than about anyone else - that it tears me up a bit.

I think he sees the kid quite like a son - especially because he must know what happened to Oscar's father.

Anyway, I do hope we get to see the best of Oscar again. We need our best players to step up again, and Oscar is one of them.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Perfecto mourinho

[Yeboii 1,844]

"So we have to take care of him"

Aww... Mourinho always speaks so affectionately about Oscar - more than about anyone else - that it tears me up a bit.

I think he sees the kid quite like a son - especially because he must know what happened to Oscar's father.

Anyway, I do hope we get to see the best of Oscar again. We need our best players to step up again, and Oscar is one of them.

What happened to his father? Did I miss out on something?