Oscar

[the wes 7,212]

3 - Oscar has scored 3 and assisted 5 in his last 9 Premier League appearances. The Brazilian playmaker has scored in consecutive league games for the first time since October 2013. He hit the target from three of his five attempts on Saturday, while fashioning one key pass.

[remains of the day 564]

Thanks RoTD.

I understand the point you're making of course. For example, Mata is a better passer than Oscar, yet our team has been improved by replacing the Spaniard with the Brazilian. As you quite rightly say, there are other factors to be taken into account besides just passing. Even so, I don't agree with the idea we should stick with Oscar. I say that, just as we improved our team by trading Mata for a player able to make a more rounded contribution, we can upgrade the side again by trading Oscar for an even more rounded alternative.

Yes, Oscar has made 13 direct contributions to goals and has aided quite a few more indirectly. I would not say however that those would all be lost if Oscar was replaced. Naturally enough, an alternative ten of the right calibre would also make such contributions. Maybe he'd contribute one or two fewer, or maybe one or two more, but by reducing the number of what we're calling sloppy passes, the overall impact of such a player would be more effective.

I have never said that Oscar is a bad player but, in my opinion, there really are too many sloppy passes from him. Those missed passes are momentum changers. If they were completed we'd be in possession, perhaps on the front foot, and sometimes in threatening situations. Because they are missed however, all of those good things come to our opponents instead.

It is a statement of the obvious that every player misses passes and that the more difficult the pass, the greater the likelihood that it will not be completed. There does come a point however when the accumulation of misses starts to weigh against a player.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not? A player who is great at only half of his job is a player that we should be looking to improve on. If, as was the case with Hazard and his commitment to tracking back, that player can make the necessary changes to his game then, fine, stick with him. If not, as was the case with Juan Mata, you have to bite the bullet and make the change.

The question then is where do we stand with Oscar. Is his passing good enough for our requirements and, if not, is he capable of improving this aspect of his play. My answers to those questions are no and no. Others see it differently.

I'll echo DYC in saying that you've articulated your points well so props for that. But if your argument is that Oscar isn't good enough for Chelsea, irrespective of his goals and assists, because his passing isn't up to your standards (which is essentially what you're implying in bolded part of your post) then that's what I would call a hypercriticism.

Oscar's passing has room for improvement. Even those who avidly defend him won't deny that. But overlooking the impact he's made in goals + assists, and assessing his worthiness to this team by a singular standard like passing is nitpicking. That's like writing off Costa because of his weak aerial ability, or Cesc because of his lack of pace or athleticism. I get your point that the team would be more effective if Oscar's passing were better, but the team would also be more effective if Costa were better in aerial duels, or if Cesc had blinding pace. These players might have one one of two limitations but those weaknesses are minutia compared to what they contribute to the team. So while Oscar's passing could certainly be better however his contribution in others aspects is so valuable that it more than compensates for a few misplaced passes.

I think unlike one or two others who have been critical of Oscar, your own problem with Oscar is more about you than any major limitations with the player himself and it seems to me that because Chelsea is a club with big ambitions you're using that to rationalize, quite frankly, overly fastidious criticisms.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not?

A team does not have to have 11 Eden Hazards to compete with the best, a team can have 1 Hazard, 1 Cesc, 1 Costa and an Oscar and guess what, still be very successful. There's having high standards and then there's have unrealistic standards.

[Cescy 40]

@chelseafc: .@oscar8 completed 68 passes against Swansea, more than any other player...

According to FourFourTwo, the biggest pass combination of the game was Oscar-Hazard.

---

I feel like the line is being drawn pretty arbitrarily, regarding this whole 'sloppiness' issue.

[yuvala 2,167]

yuvala will correct me if I'm wrong but his point seems to be that Oscar is playing for a better team and therefore it's reasonable to expect his numbers to be a little elevated by that fact. Or, to put it another way, it would be reasonable to expect Oscar's numbers to be a little less good if he were playing for Man Utd this season instead of for Chelsea. yuvala is therefore arguing that comparing Mata's numbers with Oscar's is not really judging the two players on a level playing field.

Yep.

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

I'm not saying Oscar doesn't deserve being called "better", I just dont agree with basing it on these stats, I just cant really know for a fact that if Mata played for us he wouldn't have had more goals\assists (or less).

It isn't really about Oscar and Mata but about any comparison of this sort (though obviously it does tell something).

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

Why isn't that enough for you guys?

If he proves to be an important cog and a lynch pin player for Jose isn't that great for CFC?

As I've said in a previous post if you ask Isco to win 2 tackles a game, test the keeper 3 times a game, score goals and assist goals, press the opposition when out of possession AND do it week in and week out he would likely fail miserably. And I don't know what Ross Barkley you've been watching but this year he's been nothing short of awful, you put him in this team and we'd be MUCH worse off not to mention we'd have to pay upwards of 30m... Pogba is the only guy I think who can impact our lineup positively.

We bought Oscar for something like £20M, we didn't pay over the odds for him. What he's done for the team(never mind individual contributions which have also been good) has made our team much more complete and balanced. I feel sometimes you guys look at the player's skill and not the system we play. Mata was our two time player of the year coming off a season where he had 18 goals and 25 assists in all comps, remarkable. Why was he let go? because he couldn't cope with the demands Jose puts on the team. Oscar isn't always an offensive dynamo but he is a key cog to the overall functionality of the squad. I don't think there are many players in the world today who will get you 10-15 goals, 10-15 assists, 2-2.5 tackles, and be adaptable enough to mark out an opposing attacker. He is a brilliant player who needs to get better in some areas but he is very tough to replace.

[Barbara 15,149]

Yep.

I'm not saying Oscar doesn't deserve being called "better", I just dont agree with basing it on these stats, I just cant really know for a fact that if Mata played for us he wouldn't have had more goals\assists (or less).

It isn't really about Oscar and Mata but about any comparison of this sort (though obviously it does tell something).

Oscar isn't more creative than Mata. He's just more effective and this season even creatively and attacking wise. Which is why I hate to compare players. What's the advantage of Mata being more creative if in the end Oscar has been creating more?

Moot convos imo.

[dee25 1,044]

Just a reminder of some of the assists and goals he's produced this season....

I thought I'd post this because from the comments in the last few pages one would think that Oscar is this player who can't so much as string together 5 passes.

I agree with those who are saying that he has room for improvement and this season I think there are clear signs that Oscar has taken his offensive game up a level, if anything that should give us encouragement that he's capable of improving weak areas of his game. The comments that Oscar won't get any better than he is now are far off the mark.

The one-touch assist he made for Cesc's goal against Palace, his assist for Remy's goal against Swansea, his assist for Costa's goal against West Brom, his assist for Drogba's goal against Spurs - those were all very different assists to 4 very different players but every one of them was incisive. This was a dimension in his game that was lacking last season but he's made noticeable improvements this season. I think people are writing him off too prematurely.

We all want Jose to give more opportunities to the academy youth players, but if you can't be patient with Oscar and allow him time to grow as a player how on earth are you going to be patient with the likes of RLC, Boga etc? Do folks think that these kids are going to come into the team and suddenly turn into world beaters after a season?

[Barbara 15,149]

Just a reminder of some of the assists and goals he's produced this season....

I thought I'd post this because from the comments in the last few pages one would think that Oscar is this player who can't so much as string together 5 passes.

I agree with those who are saying that he has room for improvement and this season I think there are clear signs that Oscar has taken his offensive game up a level, if anything that should give us an encouragement that he's capable of improving weak areas of his game. The comments that Oscar won't get any better than he is now are far off the mark.

The one-touch assist he made for Cesc's goal against Palace, his assist for Remy's goal against Swansea, his assist for Costa's goal against West Brom, his assist for Drogba's goal against Spurs - those were all very different assists to 4 very different players but every one of them was incisive. This was a dimension in his game that was lacking last season but he's made noticeable improvements this season. I think people are writing him off too prematurely.

We all want Jose to give more opportunities to the academy youth players, but if you can't be patient with Oscar and allow him time to grow as a player how on earth are you going to be patient with the likes of RLC, Boga etc? Do folks think that these kids are going to come into the team and suddenly turn into world beaters after a season?

excellent points made - especially the last paragraph. Interesting enough the people that can't wait for Oscar to develop or that say he won't get any better are the ones that always give stick to Mourinho for not developing youth. As if they're patient enough - to wait and see instead of writing young players off.

Again, amazing post, Dee.

[yuvala 2,167]

Oscar isn't more creative than Mata. He's just more effective and this season even creatively and attacking wise. Which is why I hate to compare players. What's the advantage of Mata being more creative if in the end Oscar has been creating more?

Moot convos imo.

Well that is for this season.

When Mata was here his stats were better and he was more effective than Oscar in that sense.

Oscar is better than him this season and he suits Mourinho's team better.

[Barbara 15,149]

Well that is for this season.

When Mata was here his stats were better and he was more effective than Oscar in that sense.

Oscar is better than him this season and he suits Mourinho's team better.

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80% (in 18 matches he averages 84% with 60% of them forward passes, he had lower than 80% pass accuracy only in three matches - but had at least 90% in four)... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

[lionsden 4,689]

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80%... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

[yuvala 2,167]

Mata had a team built around him something not even Eden has under Mourinho

That team allowed opponents to make us their bitches in the league - which is why we finished 6th, you point being....?

now that he's just another player in the team - the same way Oscar is here, he isn't as effective. The same he wasn't under Mourinho.

I said it many, many, many times, under FSW - when he gave free reign to Mata and under di Matteo when Robbie didn't seem to realize how much Mata exposed our pivot and defense while also giving him too much freedom - Mata seemed to be much bigger than he is.

If for a small streak we gave Hazard or Cesc the same kind of freedom Mata had here, they'd also have that sort of stats. Also Mata was very lucky in many, many goals. How many matches he was completely anonymous and then somehow scored or assisted?

When he's anonymous - and contributes a lot to the opponent scoring or dominating us - he's a king because he scored or assisted. When Oscar misplaces five passes after scoring two goals and playing well, he's sloppy and everyone is jumping on his back because of a few sloppy passes every other match.

Yes, Oscar needs more focus and to improve his passing, but still most matches this season he's kept his passing % around 80% (in 18 matches he averages 84% with 60% of them forward passes, he had lower than 80% pass accuracy only in three matches - but had at least 90% in four)... it's not like he's been playing as bad as he did against Newcastle (in the first half) every other week, but people took advantage of a catastrophic 45 minutes by him (where he still scored a vital goal for us) and are now making it look like that has been the standard from him this season (saying his sloppy passing isn't something only from last match - when he hit the incredible mark of 11 according some stats sites and 12 according others).

He had a sequence of anonymous matches in December, where his passing was below average as well as his overall game. that's called a slump that I hope he left it behind him. Still in the last 9 league games he contributed directly - between goals and assists - with eight goals - more than any other player in the team including Hazard, Costa and Cesc. Make the math, the last nine games in the league coincide with part of his slump. I'll take the goals and assists - without compromising his need to improve in some areas - but that's a 23yo player stepping up during a difficult time, scoring opening games, being quiet, but also decisive. Something we've missed last season. Had Oscar not scored in some of those games we maybe wouldn't have won them. He scored and assisted against Palace and Newcastle - games we dropped points last season. He was blamed then as he should - but he's barely praised now.

What lionsden said basicaly.

I am not claiming that Mata's a better player though nor was it my original point.

I just questened whether these stats can decide who's better (IMO they do not).

I agree about Oscar. It would be interesting to see him reaching new heights

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

I agree.

[Barbara 15,149]

There's a big difference between having the team built around a player and giving a player freedom and license with limited to no tactical responsibility. the former is a big myth that has gone unbusted for way too long. Can you explain to me how the team was built around Mata?

In my understanding to build a team around a player means, supplying the player with the right supporting cast and personnel to get the very best out of them and limit or cover their flaws. for one, Torres was the main striker who he was expected to assist (enough said). to put it simply, He's every attacking midfielders worst night mare.

secondly throughout mata's time here, he played in front of disjointed and subpar double pivot that was totally incapable of finding him in the right areas of the picth i.e the little pocket between the opposition CM and defence where AM are at their most effective best which forced him to drop back deep to collect the ball most of the time out of frustration.

And thirdly our extremely weak wing play during his time here which resulted in lack of width meant his options in attack was limited and he had limited movement and unreliable fullbacks and wingers to deliver diagonal passes to, to unlock opposition defence and coupled with the team's general slow ball movement . . . . if anything it's remarkable how mata was able to record such impressive figures in a highly flawed and inbalanced team.

The latter statement might be true regarding freedom and license to roam but the former is far from reality. The team wasn't built to get the best out of Mata at all.

He was given plenty of freedom, the players sought him, basically all plays went through him, we were dependable on him - but he didn't influence as many matches, he had no other tactical responsibility other than pass, it was like everyone else were supporting him, protecting him, exposing our back, exposing our midfield, limiting the kind of play we had - unless we were extremely defensive. Under Rafa it was even worse. Mata was the anchor in his team. We played very narrow on many occasions, we tried to keep possession because it suited Mata, and as you said because we didn't have better tools, but even then Hazard was here in that season - and they linked up brilliantly because Mata has excellent vision and had a quick understanding with Eden (same way Cesc did - which leads me to believe Eden makes it easy for technical players to find him and have good and quick chemistry with him).

For a player that plays centered - like Mata - and who likes to have time to touch the ball, to analyze for long seconds what to do with it, to carry it, to make 1-2s in front of the area, that team was perfect. As he's FAR from physically capable, he didn't have to press, to tackle, to help, he just stayed there in his captive #10 position waiting the team to give him the ball so he could play his magic - magic that had come many, many, many times from set-pieces. So given the number of goals and assists he had from set pieces - which have nothing to do with the crappy team you say he had surrounding him (still that team won UCL beating Barça and Bayern, but to each their own, that team wasn't that bad, it was just terribly managed). so for a player who had plenty of freedom, had the other players suit his style of play as well as the tactics (which for me makes a team built around him) and who also benefited of being an excellent set piece taker, I don't see anything unexpected from his stats. As I said if Cesc or Hazard had the same freedom, they'd have the same. Actually allow me to rectify my previous comment, they would be MUCH BETTER than Mata was imo... Cesc, playing from the pivot, with a lot of defensive responsibilities and also being far from a physical player or a fast one, will end up the season with nearly the same amount of assists. Scoring from the pivot is definitely more challenging than from behind the striker, especially when he's 3rd, 4rh in the pecking order to free kicks straight to the goal.

The United team is a mess from behind the pivot, starting there. But they have one of the best attacking midfields and strikers in the league, absolutely NO excuse for someone supposedly as good as Mata is known around here to have those stats. As I said he's playing alongside van Persie, Rooney, Falcao, di María... if that isn't an improvement of what he had here, then I don't know what could possibly be. The difference is that there he isn't the main man. There all set pieces aren't automatically assigned to him, the tactics haven't been changed to suit him, he doesn't stay static waiting for the ball to arrive to him...

But to each their own, if you think he didn't have a team built around him under Rafa is your prerogative. I disagree. Making excuses for Mata with the attacking power United has for him to feed really makes no sense in my head. He should have twice more assists than he does when his target are Rooney, RvP and Falcao. As I always say, he left a low of widows here. Ain't gonna change.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Should have started ahead of Cesc, especially with the form he's in. José paid too much respect to Liverpool tonight. Ramires and Oscar, two work-horses with bundles of energy on the counter and equal energy in pressing high up the pitch, would have stifled so many of their attacks. Fabregas was anonymous.

[LAB 1,030]

Maybe it would have been better if Jose subbed him off on Saturday to be able to get some minutes today.