🇧🇷 Oscar

[remains of the day 564]

Yet despite spending about 60M more pounds, being able to mold a team in his own image, not starting in mid-season Mourinho who is a top manager, didn't accomplish any more than Rafa did. We finished third and trophyless and at the end of the season actually looked worse than we did at the end of the last season. Avram Grant had more success in the CL than Mourinho ever had with us. RDM won the CL. Managers don't matter much and certainly not a fraction of the way the media and fans treat them. Long-term successful managers are managers that are on high spending clubs.

Managers do matter in a couple of ways

1) Controlling egos. Big name managers can handle players' egos with their own. That is important.

2)There are managers whose games suite different styles of play and may be a better fit at different clubs.

3) Managers can make a little difference and at the top level that little difference could be between winning and losing.

People always blame managers for losing and give managers credit for winning but they relatively little impact, about, I would say, the impact of a squad player. It goes against everything people learn about football but football is in the dark ages still where people think teams win because of heart and will and so on. Teams win mostly because of money.

The bolded part is precisely why managers do matter. Their impact on the success of a team can be as minimum as 10%, but that 10% can define the margins between success or failure; between being relegated or staying up; between winning a championship or being runners up.

Is there a correlation between a club's spending and their league position? Of course! But the argument that varying levels of competency in management has no bearing on the success of a team is unequivocally wrong. It assumes that all that's needed to build a successful team is to gather the most expensively paid athletes, throw them on the pitch together and viola! Sit back and watch the trophies roll in. It wholly overlooks the nuances of what makes a team successful and reduces team success down to just one single variable - money. It fails to examine other variables that can affect team performance like motivation and how a manager's ability (or lack thereof) - to motivate his players, to nurture self efficacy, to manage personalities - can either enhance or hinder a team's performances.

I think some of the analytics presented in Soccernomics is thought provoking stuff, but this particular argument - that a manager's job can be just as easily replaced by a stuffed animal without it leading to a noticeable impact on success - is a hyperbolic argument meant to provoke a reaction so that people are more inclined to buy the book.

[The Skipper 20,609]

He's played 156 games (club and country) in the last two years... That's incredible.

[The Skipper 20,609]

You don't have to tell me Brazil did not look good this World Cup. But they looked much better before the World Cup. That's why I say, the pressure got to them. The whole fantasy of winning the World Cup in their own home, overcoming the trauma of 1950, the political pressure etc.

Again, this team was unrecognizable compared to the performances before the World Cup.

It's simple really - the whole team was built around Neymar's scoring ability - and when that's not there they look completely lost and disorganised. Neymar was brilliant in the CC = Brazil being brilliant, Neymar being quite good/ok = Brazil scraping through to the semis.

[Dion 2,476]

It's simple really - the whole team was built around Neymar's scoring ability - and when that's not there they look completely lost and disorganised. Neymar was brilliant in the CC = Brazil being brilliant, Neymar being quite good/ok = Brazil scraping through to the semis.

It's bigger than that. You see, take away the goals Neymar scored, or take away everything Neymar did in the CC and Brazil would still look good. Yet, Brazil hasn't looked good in this World Cup even if you count everything Neymar did in.

I'd say it's probably even bigger than tactics alone, despite it being one of the major factors. It was probably the sum of everything - missing our best players, pressure and nerves, lack of tactical plan + proper training, slump of other core players and strong opponents capable of exposing our flaws to the limit.

[Vybz Kartel 1,613]

Oscar has to go simple as that he is not world class and I very much doubt he will ever be , his just overrated because his from Brazil just like most of the overrated expensive brazilian flops who went to the world cup, im telling u if he was not Brazilian he would hv been dropped a long time ago, pple still think they will get gems like Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Rivaldo just to name a few which makes Brazilian players overpriced and overrated kind of like how every English player with quick feet is thought to be the new Messi.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

[The Rising Sun 711]

Oscar is not going to do Neymar dribbles. Dont expect him to.

He has the ability to keep Pirlo quiet.

He is exceptional playing in small spaces, creating the sort of 1-2's that get you past opposition defences.

He needs to improve his crossing ability, which is something that you can even get better at when you are 30. No worries there.

As for a few people who were saying managers are not that important, its the players mostly, do you remember the Liverpool away game ? The City away game?

The manager has to assign systems and roles, and then its the players that must apply that on the pitch.

When our manager sent out 3 strikers in a few of the games mid season, risky move, and then we ended up winning in the late stages of the game.

You simply cannot discount a managers job of affecting the game, start to finish.

Back to topic.

It will be enjoyable to watch Oscar this season prove everyone wrong.

One average season does not make a player average.

He will come good.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I've defended him but it's unfair to call it a kneejerk reaction. Yes he kept Pirlo quiet (for 74 minutes) and scored two great goals...

on 19th September 2012!!

You can probably count the number of truly good games he's had on two hands. Southampton away on January 2nd was probably the last one. That's just not good enough, although he rarely neglects his defensive duties.

Of the six World Cup games, Oscar put in the type of performance you'd expect in maybe one (Croatia). Is one good game in six much different from what he's put up for us?

He needs to prove a hell of a lot next season, but even if he doesn't we can probably still make our money back and maybe a bit more.

[Barbara 15,149]

I've defended him but it's unfair to call it a kneejerk reaction. Yes he kept Pirlo quiet (for 74 minutes) and scored two great goals...

on 19th September 2012!!

You can probably count the number of truly good games he's had on two hands. Southampton away on January 2nd was probably the last one. That's just not good enough, although he rarely neglects his defensive duties.

Of the six World Cup games, Oscar put in the type of performance you'd expect in maybe one (Croatia). Is one good game in six much different from what he's put up for us?

He needs to prove a hell of a lot next season, but even if he doesn't we can probably still make our money back and maybe a bit more.

I think there are valid criticism and assessment and a lot of knee jerk reaction too.

Reducing his good games for us to 10 is at least better than 2-3 that I've read before, but I still think is an exaggeration. He had a great strike of months for us at the beginning of the season, we didn't play only 10 matches then.

He had a difficult season at age 22 - while is natural to criticize him for that and demand better next season and even call it 'make or break' for him here, some around here just completely trash him and already decided his whole career, at how mediocre, useless, bad, horrible, bla bla bla he will be. Those are knee jerk reactions. Reacting to his bad season is natural and expected, the lengths many go are unnecessary and too much.

Again, to analyze his form in the WC we should know what role he was asked to play by Scolari. Also if the WC is the referential, God help us with Cesc and Costa... or with Hazard, Oscar, Azpilicueta (he had a really bad match in one of Spain's) and everyone else whose name isn't Schürrle or Courtois. Those were the only Chelsea players that truly had a good WC imo (can't remember Cahill). Everyone else was either average or plain bad.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

I think there are valid criticism and assessment and a lot of knee jerk reaction too.

Reducing his good games for us to 10 is at least better than 2-3 that I've read before, but I still think is an exaggeration. He had a great strike of months for us at the beginning of the season, we didn't play only 10 matches then.

He had a difficult season at age 22 - while is natural to criticize him for that and demand better next season and even call it 'make or break' for him here, some around here just completely trash him and already decided his whole career, at how mediocre, useless, bad, horrible, bla bla bla he will be. Those are knee jerk reactions. Reacting to his bad season is natural and expected, the lengths many go are unnecessary and too much.

Again, to analyze his form in the WC we should know what role he was asked to play by Scolari. Also if the WC is the referential, God help us with Cesc and Costa... or with Hazard, Oscar, Azpilicueta (he had a really bad match in one of Spain's) and everyone else whose name isn't Schürrle or Courtois. Those were the only Chelsea players that truly had a good WC imo (can't remember Cahill). Everyone else was either average or plain bad.

I agree that we shouldn't judge any player only by his performance in the WC, but to be fair, Costa was after an injury, was new to the NT, was booed by the Brazilian fans, not to mention that Spain NT's style doesn't suit him at all; Cesc didn't look bad in the WC--he played only for half an hour and looked good, creating chances and making an assist. And I don't remember Azpi looking all that bad overall.

Anyway, I think Oscar is criticized not only for his form in the WC--Hazard was no better in that regard, and you're right that Scolari's tactics certainly didn't help Oscar--but Oscar hasn't looked good offensively for the club too in a very long time. So it's natural that people aren't optimistic considering Oscar's performance for the club and the NT. I hope he finds his form, but recovering from 1:7 won't be easy for any Brazilian player. We can only hope that it'll make him stronger rather than lessen his confidence.

[Styles 9,790]

I think there are valid criticism and assessment and a lot of knee jerk reaction too.

Reducing his good games for us to 10 is at least better than 2-3 that I've read before, but I still think is an exaggeration. He had a great strike of months for us at the beginning of the season, we didn't play only 10 matches then.

He had a difficult season at age 22 - while is natural to criticize him for that and demand better next season and even call it 'make or break' for him here, some around here just completely trash him and already decided his whole career, at how mediocre, useless, bad, horrible, bla bla bla he will be. Those are knee jerk reactions. Reacting to his bad season is natural and expected, the lengths many go are unnecessary and too much.

Again, to analyze his form in the WC we should know what role he was asked to play by Scolari. Also if the WC is the referential, God help us with Cesc and Costa... or with Hazard, Oscar, Azpilicueta (he had a really bad match in one of Spain's) and everyone else whose name isn't Schürrle or Courtois. Those were the only Chelsea players that truly had a good WC imo (can't remember Cahill). Everyone else was either average or plain bad.

What has the reaction been to Oscar in Brazil following the game?

[Thistle 77]

Lmao at people wanting Oscar sold. No idea.

[Barbara 15,149]

I agree that we shouldn't judge any player only by his performance in the WC, but to be fair, Costa was after an injury, was new to the NT, was booed by the Brazilian fans, not to mention that Spain NT's style doesn't suit him at all; Cesc didn't look bad in the WC--he played for half an hour and looked good, creating chances and making an assist. And I don't remember Azpi looking all that bad overall.

I think Oscar is criticized not only for his form in the WC--Hazard was no better in that regard, and you're right that Scolari's tactics certainly didn't help Oscar--but Oscar hasn't looked good offensively for the club too in a very long time. So it's natural that people aren't optimistic considering Oscar's performance for the club and the NT. I hope he finds his form, but recovering from 1:7 won't be easy for any Brazilian player. We can only hope that it'll make him stronger rather than lessen his confidence.

But one of the reasons WC can't be looked at is exactly because of physical issues. I was going to write that in my first post, but I tried to keep it short (you're new here, but me trying to keep posts short is a wonder in itself ). How can we evaluate players in a tournament after a whole season, with the top players in the world - meaning they played tons of minutes with their clubs? Some are battered, others recovering from injury, other are playing on high motivation and others are rested as they were subs for the clubs (and maybe even for the NTs).

Even Schurrle who had a great WC imo, I don't judge him for that. I think he's been better for us than for Germany in all honesty. My point was actually, WC shouldn't be used to define a player's quality. Some will excel there with the extra motivation of defending their countries. How many WC wonders have we witnessed? When I put Cesc and Costa there I just meant our confirmed new signings (I consider Costa confirmed, the guy's on vacation, he won't go to London or have people with him in the middle of nowhere in Brazil to run some medicals) didn't show much (Cesc barely had chances to start with).

I think you gathered my main point though: he should be criticized and we should demand much better from him, but there's a lot of exaggeration here. When played in the right position (something that didn't happen for Brazil), he can be awesome. I can't believe people forgot so easily what a start of a season he had. HE should get stick for the second half of the season, but there are so many things that can have affected him - the WC in his home country being one of them. I don't like when players neglect their clubs because of their NTs, after all it's their clubs that pay their wages, but sometimes they can't deal with everything involved. He's young and a WC in his country is something very emotional to any Brazilian player. He couldn't handle the anxiety imo, but I don't think he purposefully didn't give us his best so he'd save himself for the WC. He just couldn't handle it. His mistake, we paid for it, he should be blamed for it, but I can also understand what happened.

What has the reaction been to Oscar in Brazil following the game?

I haven't really been following the repercussions at this point anymore, but I haven't seen a lot of bad stuff towards him when I was. There was criticism about his role - but it was mostly on Scolari, although some pundits thought Oscar should continue to do his defensive contribution AND be a #10. I'm not sure if that's even attainable. I'm watching the season review as Choulo suggested - didn't know we had a link for download until now and I've been keeping an eye on him. I invite anyone here to look his positioning for Chelsea (I've just passed 30' mark) and for Brazil in the WC. It doesn't compare. He played as a pivot player in a coward approach by Felipão. And he's been poor - except for his tackling. Two true facts.

@CHOULO19, I followed your advice to watch the season review - not because of Oscar, but because I was dying to watch it. Thanks for that and, man, in all honesty, hopefully without any bias, but how can people watch what this boy did for 4 months and just decide he has no future here and some even saying nowhere else? There's too much quality and talent in the final third for him to a fluke. He may never reach his full potential, but the kid is good, all he needs is some damn consistency. Backheels, dribbles, amazing finishing, quick pass turned assist, quick reaction, good vision. Everything is there, he just needs to carry on.

[Special Juan 28,141]

@CHOULO19, I followed your advice to watch the season review - not because of Oscar, but because I was dying to watch it. Thanks for that and, man, in all honesty, hopefully without any bias, but how can people watch what this boy did for 4 months and just decide he has no future here and some even saying nowhere else? There's too much quality and talent in the final third for him to a fluke. He may never reach his full potential, but the kid is good, all he needs is some damn consistency. Backheels, dribbles, amazing finishing, quick pass turned assist, quick reaction, good vision. Everything is there, he just needs to carry on.

Because people are impatient Barbara, that's the long and short of it.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@CHOULO19, I followed your advice to watch the season review - not because of Oscar, but because I was dying to watch it. Thanks for that and, man, in all honesty, hopefully without any bias, but how can people watch what this boy did for 4 months and just decide he has no future here and some even saying nowhere else? There's too much quality and talent in the final third for him to a fluke. He may never reach his full potential, but the kid is good, all he needs is some damn consistency. Backheels, dribbles, amazing finishing, quick pass turned assist, quick reaction, good vision. Everything is there, he just needs to carry on.

"For the fans, you're always as good as your last game." -Frank Lampard

[The Mak 4,459]

Hardly a knee-jerk reaction when some people like myself have been saying the similar things about him since he was dropped in place of Mata last September...and that was when he was in form!

(Edit)

Example:

There is a reason why Mata had more chances created, assists and goals than Oscar last season. There's also a reason why Oscar has always performed better in Europe; and that is because he needs more space and time on the ball.

I don't know why Mata should be punished because we have such a shitty pivot that we need the ATTACKING-midfielder to defend so much.

I'd love for Juan to get back to his best a.s.a.p. just so he can remind some people of what he's capable of, but sadly it doesn't look like he'll get a proper chance as CAM at this rate.

I also think this has turned into more of a debate because José is now the manager and some are afraid to question him.

etc.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

But one of the reasons WC can't be looked at is exactly because of physical issues. I was going to write that in my first post, but I tried to keep it short (you're new here, but me trying to keep posts short is a wonder in itself ). How can we evaluate players in a tournament after a whole season, with the top players in the world - meaning they played tons of minutes with their clubs? Some are battered, others recovering from injury, other are playing on high motivation and others are rested as they were subs for the clubs (and maybe even for the NTs).

Even Schurrle who had a great WC imo, I don't judge him for that. I think he's been better for us than for Germany in all honesty. My point was actually, WC shouldn't be used to define a player's quality. Some will excel there with the extra motivation of defending their countries. How many WC wonders have we witnessed?

I think you gathered my main point though: he should be criticized and we should demand much better from him, but there's a lot of exaggeration here.

Yep. During WCs people get hyped up too easily and drool all over the players they didn't even rate much before, demanding the club to buy the "next Zidane, Vieira, etc" for insane prices. I don't think Oscar was that bad, actually. I was actually more disappointed with Hazard in this WC than with Oscar.

That being said, Oscar has to step up and try to regain his form. If he doesn't, his place in the first team isn't guaranteed, since we have several players capable of playing #10.

P.S. Don't keep your posts short. Seriously.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Reducing his good games for us to 10 is at least better than 2-3 that I've read before, but I still think is an exaggeration. He had a great strike of months for us at the beginning of the season, we didn't play only 10 matches then.

I'm quite happy to go through all his truly good matches over the last couple of years if you want, but of the 100+ games I'd be surprised if you got many more than a dozen truly top performances.

That's not to say he hasn't had those matches. He helped transform the game against Southampton and scored the winner against Stoke (his only two great games in 2014 for us, maybe you could include the Arsenal match too) and he was our most important player up to maybe October (if I'm being generous).

But that was his second season and whilst Hazard progressed, Oscar actually fell into a slump. One of the main excuses offered was that he was saving himself for the World Cup, but now because he's been bang average in that the argument is that Scolari got his tactics wrong.

I know he's got a cute face and people just want to hug him and snuggle him and blow raspberries on his belly, but he is a man. The constant stream of excuses needs to end eventually and he needs to start actually performing on the pitch.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Because people are impatient Barbara, that's the long and short of it.

Which is completely untrue considering he's been he for two seasons, made over 100 appearances for us and actually regressed over the last six months.

In fact the supporters have been remarkably patient with him, just like they were with Torres for his first 100 or so games.

[Barbara 15,149]

I'm quite happy to go through all his truly good matches over the last couple of years if you want, but of the 100+ games I'd be surprised if you got many more than a dozen truly top performances.

That's not to say he hasn't had those matches. He helped transform the game against Southampton and scored the winner against Stoke (his only two great games in 2014 for us, maybe you could include the Arsenal match too) and he was our most important player up to maybe October (if I'm being generous).

But that was his second season and whilst Hazard progressed, Oscar actually fell into a slump. One of the main excuses offered was that he was saving himself for the World Cup, but now because he's been bang average in that the argument is that Scolari got his tactics wrong.

I know he's got a cute face and people just want to hug him and snuggle him and blow raspberries on his belly, but he is a man. The constant stream of excuses needs to end eventually and he needs to start actually performing on the pitch.

I liked your post just because of this.You made me choke in the middle of a coughing.

I agree with you that he shouldn't be excused from performing from now on, it's his complete dismissal that is exaggerated imo. Also he's very young, mate. He's been frustrating to no end, bad for real, but there's nothing that should lead us to believe he shouldn't be given another chance - as many implied here. If he's had a split season - half bad/half good (he wasn't out most of December as I thought, my memory failed me and he still played on a good level - not great), it means it was a 50/50 situation. The least I think we should give him is the benefit of the doubt. I just compared the Torres and the Ramires situation to his in the season review thread - maybe I'm being generous, hopeful, or just wishful thinking, but I don't think we can put a 22yo of his technical quality in the same bracket we put Torres and Ramires... but we can agree to disagree, after all, all those things are simply opinion.

I just feel sometimes reading this thread that some people seem eager to see him flop. He's been given excuses so far and I don't think new ones should be overlooked (and I can already predict two excuses: he's damn tired again, he's been battered emotionally by the 7x1 humiliation). But it's not our problem as a club if he's under those circumstances. We aren't a charity organization, if he can't pick up the pieces and start progressing again (I agree he stagnated or even regressed in his development), it's time we move on. But the chance needs to be given imo.