David Luiz

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

there isn't one thing I agree with except that nobody hates Luiz. The analogy is very unfortunate imo in the Luiz side of the things. He loses focus/concentration and makes mistakes. It's quite simple. We've been discussing it for 200 pages. Whether he's able to fix it with or without Mourinho's help is the big question. Implying he doesn't 'do his homework, skips class and puts zero effort' is just plain unfair and awful imo. But we can agree to disagree.

He doesn't perform to the maximum of his ability and makes stupid mistakes. I don't think it's even arguable. He's been making the same things for 3 years under 4 different managers and they are not getting fixed. It's not down to a lack of talent which is forgivable, it's down to a lack of concentration or effort or something else or understanding what he should be doing. My biggest fault with him is not his mistakes, every defender makes mistakes, it's his lofting the ball upfield 10 times a game. It's his wandering into positions that are ridiculous for a defender to be in. It's his shooting way too much. It's his trying to dribble past players as a defender. It's basic stuff that he should be fixing

[pachman40 357]

And football is a very simple game when all is said and done. It seems to be working well for us too doesn't it?

Exactly. David Luiz may well be a square peg for our round hole.

See, this is the mindset I don't understand. Are his long balls from the back and free-kicks so great (how many free-kicks has he scored from this season by the way) that we should all be 'resigned to the fact and not surprised that he makes mistakes'?

I'm just going to type that one more time because it is a fascinating thing to hear we should accept from a player.

We should be 'resigned to the fact and not surprised that he makes mistakes'. Tell you what, that should be printed on the tickets so that when a guy works his bollocks off all week to be able to afford to bring his son to a match he doesn't get all uppity when Luiz throws in a performance like the one against Cardiff. Clearly any disagreement we have over Luiz is because I'm not so ready to accept this.

That somebody might be Jose Mourinho....a guy not renowned for resigning himself to accepting a player making mistakes. But I do agree that he isn't playing to his potential, which is where the frustration with him comes from. If he was a limited player then no-one would care, but it's the fact that he is ONE OF THE MOST PHYSICALLY AND TECHNICALLY GIFTED PLAYERS IN OUR SQUAD (oh look, I'm a real hater) that makes him so frustrating.

Well don't sound too excited about it.

So we have a style that the coach wants, that seems to be successful and seems to be bringing out the best in players like Eden Hazard, John Terry, Willian and Oscar but it doesn't suit David Luiz? See this is where the 'couldn't give a fuck' side of me comes out. I feel no great affinity towards David Luiz. I find most of his off the field stuff juvenile, although he is great with the kids and his charity/community work is exemplary.

I also think if he went to Barca then he'd fit in perfectly. He'd add a new dimension to their game, probably score in double digits and be FIFA TOTY for the next 5 years.....but I'd also fancy our chances against him if we got them in Europe.

Here's the thing though - there is no anti-Luiz bandwagon. Anyone who has seen him play knows that he has EVERYTHING to be the best defender in the world. He's strong, he's fast, he's great with the ball, he can intercept better than almost any player in the league on his day, he can hit great passes....it's those top two inches that are suspect and unfortunately they are the most important thing in football. It's why we're talking about a guy who will be 27 in 3 months time in terms of what he COULD be. Are we still going to be doing that when he's 30? Potential?

Don't hate Luiz. Think he has every tool to be the best defender in the world and gave him a lot of credit after the Liverpool and Hull games.

Wisey never gave less than 100% and never bottled challenges.

I think for the most part as weird as it sounds we're pretty much on the same page. Luiz is better than this. The rest can be debated solidly both ways.

You cling to and emphasize my line that I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that he makes mistakes. Well I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that JT makes mistakes. Gary makes mistakes. Mourinho makes mistakes, I make mistakes. I'm also resigned to the fact that when JT and Gary make mistakes they are given the benefit of the doubt more than Luiz. Was Luiz's mistake in Cardiff the first time a defender ever misjudged a pass back to a goalie? Will he never live it down because it resulted in a goal - in a 4-1 Chelsea win? Didn't John Terry gift wrap a ball to Hull last game in the first half at 0-0 but because we kept a clean sheet it's forgotten and our defensive system is a solid platform for our attacking players. If Luiz made that identical mistake you better believe it would be a 30 page topic in this forum but it got barely a nibble. The Gary/JT pairing was horrendous this season until this recent 6 game run you refer to. Is that all forgotten, and now they are our undisputed first pair? I'm very happy with Chelsea's recent defensive form but I'm not ready to anoint Gary/JT as our best pair.

You may not be on the anti-Luiz bandwagon, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're making decent points and giving a balanced view,. But I also think you've bought into the view that David's head is his problem where I think those problems are overexaggerated. In the end, he's too square of a peg right now for the round hole in Mourinho's current system, but I can see some changes coming.

[Barbara 15,149]

I think for the most part as weird as it sounds we're pretty much on the same page. Luiz is better than this. The rest can be debated solidly both ways.

You cling to and emphasize my line that I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that he makes mistakes. Well I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that JT makes mistakes. Gary makes mistakes. Mourinho makes mistakes, I make mistakes. I'm also resigned to the fact that when JT and Gary make mistakes they are given the benefit of the doubt more than Luiz. Was Luiz's mistake in Cardiff the first time a defender ever misjudged a pass back to a goalie? Will he never live it down because it resulted in a goal - in a 4-1 Chelsea win? Didn't John Terry gift wrap a ball to Hull last game in the first half at 0-0 but because we kept a clean sheet it's forgotten and our defensive system is a solid platform for our attacking players. If Luiz made that identical mistake you better believe it would be a 30 page topic in this forum but it got barely a nibble. The Gary/JT pairing was horrendous this season until this recent 6 game run you refer to. Is that all forgotten, and now they are our undisputed first pair? I'm very happy with Chelsea's recent defensive form but I'm not ready to anoint Gary/JT as our best pair.

You may not be on the anti-Luiz bandwagon, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're making decent points and giving a balanced view,. But I also think you've bought into the view that David's head is his problem where I think those problems are overexaggerated. In the end, he's too square of a peg right now for the round hole in Mourinho's current system, but I can see some changes coming.

truer words were never said.

I even completely forgot about that incident because nobody mentioned it (then again I didn't check his thread, lol, only the live match. But you're completely right. Had it been Luiz, there would be at least 5 pages discussing his brainfart in this thread.

edit: hahahahahaha

mate, you're so right that checking JT's thread now there isn't one single comment on the incident. This is presh, lol.

People make mistakes as you said, it's just Luiz's are always taken in the microscope and blown out of proportion with part of Chelsea fanbase

[Azpinator 2,325]

Will this David Luiz ever play for us?

[Jase 43,479]

truer words were never said.

I even completely forgot about that incident because nobody mentioned it (then again I didn't check his thread, lol, only the live match. But you're completely right. Had it been Luiz, there would be at least 5 pages discussing his brainfart in this thread.

edit: hahahahahaha

mate, you're so right that checking JT's thread now there isn't one single comment on the incident. This is presh, lol.

People make mistakes as you said, it's just Luiz's are always taken in the microscope and blown out of proportion with part of Chelsea fanbase

I don't think you're gonna find a lot of, if any, bad comments on Terry, even if he makes mistakes. Take for example the one at Newcastle last season where his brainless tackle, which was very Luiz-esque, on the halfway line that led to Newcastle's equalizer. Hardly a word mentioned and all the focus then was on Benitez after the game because we lost and it's Benitez.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I think for the most part as weird as it sounds we're pretty much on the same page. Luiz is better than this. The rest can be debated solidly both ways.

You cling to and emphasize my line that I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that he makes mistakes. Well I'm resigned to the fact and not surprised that JT makes mistakes. Gary makes mistakes. Mourinho makes mistakes, I make mistakes. I'm also resigned to the fact that when JT and Gary make mistakes they are given the benefit of the doubt more than Luiz. Was Luiz's mistake in Cardiff the first time a defender ever misjudged a pass back to a goalie? Will he never live it down because it resulted in a goal - in a 4-1 Chelsea win? Didn't John Terry gift wrap a ball to Hull last game in the first half at 0-0 but because we kept a clean sheet it's forgotten and our defensive system is a solid platform for our attacking players. If Luiz made that identical mistake you better believe it would be a 30 page topic in this forum but it got barely a nibble. The Gary/JT pairing was horrendous this season until this recent 6 game run you refer to. Is that all forgotten, and now they are our undisputed first pair? I'm very happy with Chelsea's recent defensive form but I'm not ready to anoint Gary/JT as our best pair.

It's how the mistakes arise that is the issue. It's the brainfarts or the lack of concentration that seem to cause them. When JT made that mistake against Hull at the weekend it was genuinely unexpected. When Luiz makes that mistake against Hull every one around me was thinking 'not again'. The fact that the rest of that game was fairly embarrassing and one of the least committed I've ever seen from a player wearing our shirt doesn't really help matters.

Luiz was actually dropped after that game as well. The next Premier League start was against Newcastle and he was not only poor in that game, he actually bottled a challenge. He was then dropped again after that and we started on a good run. That's what people are judging him on. We all know exactly what he can do, but until he does that it's still only potential and 26 year olds really shouldn't be talked about in terms of potential.

You may not be on the anti-Luiz bandwagon, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're making decent points and giving a balanced view,. But I also think you've bought into the view that David's head is his problem where I think those problems are overexaggerated. In the end, he's too square of a peg right now for the round hole in Mourinho's current system, but I can see some changes coming.

It has to be Luiz who changes.

There is no anti-Luiz bandwagon in the sense that he's unfairly targetted. People who pay their hard-earned money don't want to see a player putting in sub-par performances when they're capable of much more. That's where the frustration comes from. He should be much better but he doesn't play to 100% of what he's capable of.

Cahill's ceiling is much lower but he gets the most out of the talent he has. So does JT. That's why they don't get as much criticism. Luiz's lack of commitment to getting the most out of his game verges on dishonesty and that's the one thing supporters in the stands will never forgive and no amount of Instagram pictures will assuage that.

truer words were never said.

I even completely forgot about that incident because nobody mentioned it (then again I didn't check his thread, lol, only the live match. But you're completely right. Had it been Luiz, there would be at least 5 pages discussing his brainfart in this thread.

edit: hahahahahaha

mate, you're so right that checking JT's thread now there isn't one single comment on the incident. This is presh, lol.

People make mistakes as you said, it's just Luiz's are always taken in the microscope and blown out of proportion with part of Chelsea fanbase

Because JT makes them so infrequently that it's not symptomatic of a larger problem. It was a one-off that surprised everyone.

Were you surprised when Luiz made the mistake against Hull? Was anyone? Exactly.

I don't think you're gonna find a lot of, if any, bad comments on Terry, even if he makes mistakes. Take for example the one at Newcastle last season where his brainless tackle, which was very Luiz-esque, on the halfway line that led to Newcastle's equalizer. Hardly a word mentioned and all the focus then was on Benitez after the game because we lost and it's Benitez.

Because that's the way football works. Players are allowed to make the odd mistake but if it becomes something that happens a lot then a narrative is built.

He doesn't perform to the maximum of his ability

But the kids love a celeb who sticks out their tongue....it's the Miley Cyrus effect.

[pachman40 357]

In the end, Luiz has his current reputation, whether earned or not, that he's prone to regular brainfarts. It's the default, its the first reaction every time he messes up. This is reinforced by media, tv analysts, and fans. I feel like I'm going in circles, just like I'm sure you're feeling right now TOPTB. Luiz could string a long run of games where he plays well (like late last season) but the instant his brain lets out some gas then that's the rule as opposed to the exception. Personally I think his gaffes are absolutely no more frequent than Gary Cahill's but the manner in which they screw up is quite different given that they play different styles of game. Gary generally has horrible positioning and backs off so much that he's been in Cech's lap for so many goals and scoring chances against. But he makes a hell of a last gasp challenge to prevent scoring chances. People jizz over those challenges but nobody mentions that half the time he needs to make those challenges because he's out of position or he's backed off too much. Whatever, that's the opinion of some people and who am I to change that. Regarding JT, he's a legend, he's earned the benefit of the doubt and even though I could get into it a bit, I don't want to knock him because I genuinely love him and want him in our side.

Bringing up Luiz's commitment level and effort is a non-starter for me. If anything he tries too hard and that's what gets him in trouble, Every player in the world has off days and no doubt there could've been a game here or there where the commitment level was not up your acceptable level. That hardly represents a trend and that hardly represents an earned reputation. Maybe if he kept his tongue in his mouth and cut his hair to a respectable length, then a new fully committed and hard working leader might rise like a phoenix from the scraps of hair laying on the floor.

Luiz, for me, represents one half of the best CB pairing we should be playing, yes even now. I'm sure you'll disagree but that's my opinion. Mourinho is siding with you now, and I am more than happy for Gary/JT to continue with the clean sheets and bring success to Chelsea. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do something else, and that's why he's the best manager in the world, and I'm some shmuck typing at a computer. Nice debate though :tophat:

[Joshybizzle 109]

One thing that confuses me with when it comes to Mourhinio's system is why David Luiz isn't a slightly more key part of it, i know as well as you chaps do that he can be prone to the occasional error (sometimes completely of his own making) but he's a world class CB that's obvious to everyone otherwise you wouldn't have the likes of Bayern and Barca keeping a very close eye on him!

He's solid defensively and the way he can win the ball back, dip a couple of challenges (this is where his impulsive side tends to come out) and spray some pretty spectacular passes forward and with José's focus on the transition between defense and attack i can't see where Dave falls over. He's got incredible passing range and isn't afraid to try the spectacular, which he's pulled off quite often! He's comfortable with the ball and he can on occasion read the game very well, he loves the club and the city and he's got a very good work rate.

I hope José decides to take the same approach with Luiz he took with Hazard, instead of benching a player for not having the qualities you want (like Hazard's defensive work rate) you drill into them what you want them to do, use a bit of that José magic! Because with Mr. Mourhinio's guidance i can't see why Luiz couldn't work a couple of kinks out of his game and be a huge player for us going forward

Off topic

How awesome is it to have a manager of Mourhinio's stature who can just ring up players like Matic and Zouma and say he wants them and their response is simply, 'Mourhinio is Mourhinio'.. says it all!

[Barbara 15,149]

Will this David Luiz ever play for us?

I do hope this is not an assumption that the problem is his hair and his upbeat, cheery PERSONALITY (bc it's not only attitude). If that's what you're implying, sorry, K, but I think it's ridic...

An additional comment on this one. TOPTB said something along the lines. Most people agree the player that plays for Brazil NT is a different one, many claim they want that player to play for us. Still there's the hair, the tongue and even more playful jokes when he's away with the team, especially during isolation before important tournaments such as Copa America, Confed Cup and I'm sure we'll see the same before WC. that's who Luiz is, that's not a character like Cyrus (who was never like that before as far as I can say, don't follow the girl). So if the problem is his cheery attitude then why it doesn't affect his game when with the NT where he's even more playful off pitch than when he's with Chelsea?

Because JT makes them so infrequently that it's not symptomatic of a larger problem. It was a one-off that surprised everyone.

but my point wasn't that we should complain about Terry, but complain less about mistakes, regardless of who does them. I didn't say a word about Essien against Soton last month (except in a summary, in the match thread where the focus wasn't even Essien, but how Soton would have never scored if not for that mistake).

But I understand that's me and people are different. But if they're so willing about talking about a player's mistake, they should be the same about everyone else. Didn't Terry also fail in one of the goals we conceded against Stoke? Or was Sunderland? He does mistakes as anyone else, but as said many times, his mistakes and Gary's are rarely the big messes Luiz's are. Their are more subtle, but still mistakes that lead to goals or to exposing Cech...

I don't think you're gonna find a lot of, if any, bad comments on Terry, even if he makes mistakes. Take for example the one at Newcastle last season where his brainless tackle, which was very Luiz-esque, on the halfway line that led to Newcastle's equalizer. Hardly a word mentioned and all the focus then was on Benitez after the game because we lost and it's Benitez.

that's exactly my claim. I don't want us to start discussing JT or Lamps, or Cech's (although he doesn't escape the criticism despite being a legend to this club) or even Cahill's mistakes. I just think it isn't fair putting every little and big mistake Luiz makes in the microscope when the same isn't done with other, let's call it, fan-favorites. It's a double standard, but as TOPTB said, maybe that's because JT rarely makes a mistake (it's not that rare, but it's indeed less often).

Luiz had a streak of bad form, bad form makes you prone to make more mistakes. On his usual form his mistakes while noticeable because they normally involve a big mess, they aren't that frequent either. It's just that a lot of people has a microscope on him, expecting the mistakes, big and small and then that's all they talk about. Starting with the pundits.

[JDY 1,290]

Luiz was actually dropped after that game as well. The next Premier League start was against Newcastle and he was not only poor in that game, he actually bottled a challenge.

I keep seeing you mention this game and this challenge, and I know exactly which challenge you are talking about. However, I don't think it's a case of 'bottling' the tackle, as I've seen him on a number of occasions use the same tackling technique with varying success (sort of going over the top of the ball?).

I know you want to bring these things up to back up your points, but you can't just focus on the negatives and completely ignore other things, some even in the same matches.

I don't know what JT was doing here, but Luiz basically saved his backside and a near certain goal. Yet all I hear about this game is that Luiz bottled one challenge.

[Henrique 9,133]

Will this David Luiz ever play for us?

Soon, and he is called Matic,

[Henrique 9,133]

For me one of the most stupid things I read in those recent posts is that JT/Cahill are the ones to praise for the recent defensive form. Willian is the reason why the team improved in defensive terms, the same way JT/Cahill were not the only ones to blame for conceding 7 goals in 2 matches.

True is, JT/Cahill barely had to work in recent games, because the defensive midfielder is looking solid in defensive terms. Actually I think at this point, some people still dont realize that the defensive system is much more than the CB pair. Sometimes a player like Willian is way more important in defensive terms than the CB pair.

[Korea 734]

Invisible Luiz.

[Strike 7,250]

Was surprised he was kept on given he was on a yellow

[The Skipper 20,593]

Not a DM at all. Even the way he moves with the ball there - it's clear that he's a CB playing DM.

[Korea 734]

Not a DM at all. Even the way he moves with the ball there - it's clear that he's a CB playing DM.

Luiz has good ball/passing skills for a CB, not for a CM/DM.

Hes not fast enough to play CM and he doesnt have positional awareness to play CM.

And this passion people talk about is the same passion Rafael has and gets himself into trouble in numerous games because of it.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Surprising he gives us more attacking intent when he plays in the CM role, him being a CB and all.

[lionsden 4,689]

Not a DM at all. Even the way he moves with the ball there - it's clear that he's a CB playing DM.

His positioning, descipline, decision making and passing was just awful. If I hear more cries for him to be played in DM again, I might pull my hair out, especially now that we have reinforcement in matic. mikel should have been started instead then bring matic on in the 2ns half after the 3rd goal.