David Luiz

[Beepu 1,714]

Beepu,

You need to look at Luiz as a footballer & not as a person. Chelsea plays football games.

The club has not hired Luiz for his charming personality. Lol.

Re-read what I wrote. I said I like him as a person but it would be stupid to reject an offer of that amount eh.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

I wouldn't call him a hoof ball specialist because that implies he's a early-90s Wimbledon-style 'route one' merchant which he isn't.

But he went from being a player who always tried to dribble out of trouble to a player who would routinely hoof the ball away in ANY direction. It's like someone told him 'when in doubt, kick it out' and he literally felt he had to do that whenever he had even a moment's doubt, so you had this odd situation in a match earlier in the season (can't remember exactly which one right now) where he seemed to just punt the ball away whenever it came near him in the last 5-10 minutes.

Cahill is actually getting close to Terry in the 'underrated ability to pass' league. Neither is Frank Leboeuf (still the most beautiful passing defender I've seen - the passes being beautiful, not him....although when he shaved that last remaining hair off...I digress) but they keep it simple.

For Luiz it's not the ability to pass that is the issue....it's the judgment. Fact is you acknowledge that in your last sentence. He's 27. We're talking about the same issues he had at 23.

Agreed, there was a mentality switch in him to go from carrying the ball out to hoofing.

But I honestly believe that switch was imposed on him by someone. We know Luiz is a ball playing defender, kind of a sweeper of the old tactical days, but he's not as mature and is shy of the technical ability needed to do it consistently & successfully. So his natural instinct will be to do just that, we've seen that from 2011-13, that's why I believe he's been told to do it by Mourinho. As I said before, we've seen Cahill and Terry demonstrate it this season also.

I agree about judgement which he hasn't been able to mature yet. £25-30million is an extraordinary fee for a 27-year old defender who's been displaced in the squad, so it wouldn't be the worst case scenario in the world, but I share the view others posted in this thread.. We can't go into next season with Cahill, Terry, Kalas and Zouma as our CBs, we need someone with experience and someone with big game mentality (it wouldn't be fair to say Luiz doesn't have that maturity in him, his immaturity is only displayed in the less important games).

Unless Mourinho has such a replacement lined up, I'd think we'd regret the sale of Luiz.

[LAB 1,030]

I acknowledge that we might miss Luiz in some cases, but why everyone seems to ignore Ivanovic? I think he is very good and experienced player who can play CB if needed. Besides, where is his place next season if we buy a fullback?

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Its intriguing that the most loud voices against Luiz always come from english members...

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

[Madmax 9,219]

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

Dante can't defend?

[Barbara 15,149]

I'm sorry, but how many times does this member have to imply there's some xenophobic or racist agenda behind some people's comments before he's reprimanded?

It's not bullshit. Ivanovic is a very capable central defender and has shown it on numerous occasions, like at Liverpool a couple of weeks ago. He made a couple of errors last season but I would still trust him over Luiz.

When Terry was injured for a couple of weeks Luiz was drafted in. Fortunately the first game was against Newcastle who had no fight in them, although Luiz still made a couple of errors. The second game was against West Brom when he lost Anichebe in the 87th minute and he scored.

David Luiz hasn't played in defence since.

We'll see, but I absolutely think he isn't a Jose-type of player and I think Jose has realised that ever since he dropped him for the second time in November.

Then why was he adamant in January David Luiz isn't for sale and he was indeed kept because we so desperately needed him? Why? Didn't you just said Iva is a hell of a defender and we still had Cole in the squad? He could have gotten rid of him easily, but he didn't and he was adamant on saying as a broken record he isn't for sale. It can change in the summer window, but if Mourinho went out of his way to say it a few times and he did, is because he is the kind of player Jose likes. I'm talking about a lot of things when I label the Mourinho kind of player and people with his spirit and as committed as him are missing a little bit these days at the Bridge. Yeah, he has brainfarts at moments that come from lack of concentration, I'm talking about giving everything, growing in the biggest matches when the teams need him the most. Mourinho value those things and I'm not sure he's ready to give up on a player with Luiz's potential - showed by his technical skills - just because he had a bad/average season.

I really don't get what is your huge problem with him, but it's something you're entitled to and a few even feel the same. I think it's a bit too much. He isn't the best defender in the world - far from it - but he isn't as bad as you make him out to be imo. we can agree to disagree.

Also the Ivanovic part of my argument had among other things the need to use him as a RB explaining how unless we sign Luke Shaw, Azpili is stuck in the LB and we don't have someone to play in the RB as I think Cole is likely to leave. Ivanovic is capable, I agree, but far from ideal, and it's not only the mistakes he did last season that hurt us. He had made many mistakes, the ones against Swansea were catastrophes, not only mistakes, throughout the whole season. But it were less flashy mistakes, and Cahill was hideous at some matches too, and Terry was injured. So my whole point is all of our defenders (except maybe Terry) had had streaks of bad form in the last three seasons, it's not only Luiz's privilege, so I think we could keep them and maybe we will.

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

sorry to get into the discussion - your point is relevant, I don't think Henrique's is, but Gary Cahill who is acclaimed here isn't exactly a defender who can defend. He's a defender who can defend in a certain system (the whole defense playing very deep) and still it seems to some he's the best thing in defense these days. He's very limited and he excelled in a system that favored him. If there's a match that demands a different style - like the 2nd leg against Atlético, for example - he's a liability and the match itself showed it.

I'm not even questioning you choosing him over Luiz (although the way you word it, it's as if he's the same level or kind of defender Terry is - he isn't and will never be because Terry is a hell of a defender, that although he's always been slow, when younger had more tools in his box than Gary and adapted better to different conditions/systems). But I do agree Dante can't defend.

[pachman40 357]

The teams interested in David and the rumoured values they are willing to pay, together with the styles those teams play when compared to ours indicates to me that David's talents, skills, maturity, consistency, leadership, personality, haircut, funny faces, brain cramps, etc... are more suited to a different team playing style. It indicates that these other teams see value in him and shows, to me, that Chelsea are not utilizing him to HIS potential. There is no requirement, rule, or obligation for Mourinho, Chelsea, or anyone in Chelsea's organization to modify the system to accommodate David. It's plain and simple and obvious to most everyone here that David does not suit the strategies/tactics that Chelsea are currently employing. Its also plain and simple and obvious that BIG teams are tripping over each other to try and add Luiz with all of his positives and negatives to their system. Those teams will most likely cater to Luiz's natural instincts and playing style and will gladly accept the wrinkles that will come along with it.

Like I said, no obligation on our part to accept what he brings to the table, no player is bigger than the team. It's just interesting to observe how some teams encourage the individuality while others would encourage the same players to modify their games to fit within the team's structure. It's not an "I'm right, you're wrong" conversation. It's just two different points of view, with each side more than comfortable defending their opinions.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Thing is - when I've watched Luiz for Brazil - he's been really good - last ditch defending a la Terry / Cahil ....

Maybe he just needs consistency and a working relationship with a co-defender.

If he goes I'll be sad.

I don't think anybody can accuse him of NOT trying - he gives everything during a game.

[bababoom 4,478]

It's sad certain members have to undermine Cahill to try and make Luiz look better, first they said he's more of a liabilty than Luiz (), as he's proved them wrong with a great season they now say he has only played well becuase of our system...

He's more suited to teams who play possesion based football because typically the defenders dont really have to defend for large periods of the game, Pique's the same, when Barca are under pressure he gets exploited every time but he's great when they are in possesion because he's one of best defenders on the ball.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Then why was he adamant in January David Luiz isn't for sale and he was indeed kept because we so desperately needed him? Why?

Because we needed a midfielder in the Champions League since Matic was cup-tied and Luiz looks a bit like one.

Sometimes.

I really don't get what is your huge problem with him, but it's something you're entitled to and a few even feel the same. I think it's a bit too much. He isn't the best defender in the world - far from it - but he isn't as bad as you make him out to be imo. we can agree to disagree.

I don't have a huge problem with him. I think he's inconsistent in almost every respect and I think £30 million for him is a great bit of business.

- like the 2nd leg against Atlético, for example - he's a liability and the match itself showed it.

Um....the system seemed fine UNTIL one player fucked up and didn't do his job. Then we had to chase the game. It's laughable to put any of that on Cahill....different but laughable.

[Rom2013 446]

David Luiz is not consistent enough to play as a CB for Chelsea, he didn't play well this season in CB and was ok in the CM position, there are many teams that want to pay 30M£ for him, and we need that money to buy better players and in position where we have more gaps.

I think he should be sold as soon as possible.

Real Madrid in 2010 with Mourinho bought Ricardo Carvalho and he played a magnificent season for Madrid for something like 5M£.

Inter also with Mourinho had Lucio as CB for something like 5M£.

Cahill is doing really well.

We don't need a CB in the bench that has a market value of 30M£ when we don't have a proper striker.

In my opinion we should sell him and maybe buy another one for less than 10M£. I don't know if we need to buy another CB because we will see what kalas or Zouma can bring to the team, and we also have Ivanovic.

[Barbara 15,149]

Because we needed a midfielder in the Champions League since Matic was cup-tied and Luiz looks a bit like one.

Sometimes.

I don't have a huge problem with him. I think he's inconsistent in almost every respect and I think £30 million for him is a great bit of business.

Um....the system seemed fine UNTIL one player fucked up and didn't do his job. Then we had to chase the game. It's laughable to put any of that on Cahill....different but laughable.

No, I didn't put it on Cahill. I'm just saying it showed that when we don't defend deep, Cahill struggles. I'm in no way blamimg him at all. I'm just arguing that certain conditions are difficult for him and he can't defend well in them.

It's sad certain members have to undermine Cahill to try and make Luiz look better, first they said he's more of a liabilty than Luiz ( ), as he's proved them wrong with a great season they now say he has only played well becuase of our system...

He's more suited to teams who play possesion based football because typically the defenders dont really have to defend for large periods of the game, Pique's the same, when Barca are under pressure he gets exploited every time but he's great when they are in possesion because he's one of best defenders on the ball.

sure there's some agenda right. I don't even know why people don't give him a statue for his two previous seasons with us. He was certainly a rock back then wasn't he? *sarcasm*

Don't be picky... it wasn't even a comparison, but something about Cahill. If you disagree then it's your prerogative. We only have 2 seasons filled of his mistakes to defend such a point that if the line is high he has trouble finding his foot.

I'm the first one to say (as many others defending Luiz's stay) that Cahill and Terry was the partnership that earned their regular positions and that both collectively and separately had a season that can't be even compared to Luiz. What's your point, mate, in addition to being picky?

[Henrique 9,133]

Correct. Because we like defenders who can defend. I know it's an abstract thing and call me old-fashioned if you will, but give me a Gary Cahill or a John Terry over a Dante or David Luiz any day of the week.

Thats not the reason, imo.

With the squad quickly losing its english identity, Cahill is the only english player in the current squad that have a long term future. When Cahill was still a mere squad player, there was a poll about who should be the next captain and 90% of english members said Cahill.

This is the reason why, in the beginning of the season "only place to be" was trying really hard to prove Lampard was a useful player in the double pivot, when it was clear he wasn't suited to the role, and even Mourinho realized that: in the second leg of the season Luiz was ahead of Lampard in the picking order to play in the mid.

but thats another problem. I already said that many times in this forum: I can't believe England can't produce better players than the mediocrity of Moses, Marin, Salah. I think a club is supposed to help the local football, and players from other countries should be special ones, but suddenly trying to picture Cahill as a top 3 defender in the world is not the best way to solve this problem. I believe if Cahill was from Germany, the english members would be more lenient with Luiz.

[Henrique 9,133]

More like the extreme Jose lovers.

I think "only place to be" and "Tx" have a point when they say "true" supporters are also extreme Jose lovers, because when they are saying "true" supporters, they are obviously saying "english". Most of "true/real" supporters were supporting the team before Roman's money. Mourinho was the first manager to turn Chelsea into league champions after decades, but after City success, for me its clear who the real special one is. Before Mourinho, Chelsea was already a UCL semi-final side, and got a 2nd place in PL. In first season, Mourinho got the PL trophy, and the same UCL semi-final of the previous season. After he left we finally reached an UCL final, produced the best football of Abramovich era under Ancelotti and the 100+ goals double, and won the biggest trophy of all in 2012 (for me its quite ridiculous that Mourinho tries to get some credit for the 12 UCL glory).

I'm not trying to dismiss Mourinho as an ordinary manager, but seeing Mourinho as a godlike manager, is far from a rational thinking.

[Henrique 9,133]

It's sad certain members have to undermine Cahill to try and make Luiz look better, first they said he's more of a liabilty than Luiz ( ), as he's proved them wrong with a great season they now say he has only played well becuase of our system...

He's more suited to teams who play possesion based football because typically the defenders dont really have to defend for large periods of the game, Pique's the same, when Barca are under pressure he gets exploited every time but he's great when they are in possesion because he's one of best defenders on the ball.

I think its quite the opposite: we have people undermining Luiz to make Cahill look better, but Cahill became the new hero for the english, so discussing this subject here is a lost case.

[iseah100 5,612]

I think "only place to be" and "Tx" have a point when they say "true" supporters are also extreme Jose lovers, because when they are saying "true" supporters, they are obviously saying "english". Most of "true/real" supporters were supporting the team before Roman's money. Mourinho was the first manager to turn Chelsea into league champions after decades, but after City success, for me its clear who the real special one is. Before Mourinho, Chelsea was already a UCL semi-final side, and got a 2nd place in PL. In first season, Mourinho got the PL trophy, and the same UCL semi-final of the previous season. After he left we finally reached an UCL final, produced the best football of Abramovich era under Ancelotti and the 100+ goals double, and won the biggest trophy of all in 2012 (for me its quite ridiculous that Mourinho tries to get some credit for the 12 UCL glory).

I'm not trying to dismiss Mourinho as an ordinary manager, but seeing Mourinho as a godlike manager, is far from a rational thinking.

Mourinho is GOD!

[iseah100 5,612]

I think its quite the opposite: we have people undermining Luiz to make Cahill look better, but Cahill became the new hero for the english, so discussing this subject here is a lost case.

Mourinho has a track record of bringing the best out of several players, so you don't think he could do that with Cahill? He's getting a starting spot for England speaks for itself.

Also, Mourinho must not be shit since he didn't win the CL with us, and only won a few trophies, right? He only won a couple of League Titles and FA Cups. Ancelotti and DiMatteo are much better even though combined they haven't won as much as Mou COMBINED.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Thats not the reason, imo.

With the squad quickly losing its english identity, Cahill is the only english player in the current squad that have a long term future. When Cahill was still a mere squad player, there was a poll about who should be the next captain and 90% of english members said Cahill.

This is the reason why, in the beginning of the season "only place to be" was trying really hard to prove Lampard was a useful player in the double pivot, when it was clear he wasn't suited to the role, and even Mourinho realized that: in the second leg of the season Luiz was ahead of Lampard in the picking order to play in the mid.

but thats another problem. I already said that many times in this forum: I can't believe England can't produce better players than the mediocrity of Moses, Marin, Salah. I think a club is supposed to help the local football, and players from other countries should be special ones, but suddenly trying to picture Cahill as a top 3 defender in the world is not the best way to solve this problem. I believe if Cahill was from Germany, the english members would be more lenient with Luiz.

I see your point and accept it. I'm just speaking for myself when I prefer Cahill as a defender to Luiz. Luiz is definitely the superior footballer on a technical level. I think he and Matic in the pivot is our best option unless we spend big in the summer on a midfielder. But as a centre-back, his lapses are too frequent for me. Cahill is your typical "safe" English-style defender, which I like to have in front of me as a goalkeeper myself, and the same applies for the team I support.