David Luiz

[Blue Warrior 109]

Vidic can only remember the world class days, when he sticks in a dvd. Still tough, just slowed down by father time. David Luiz is to unreliable to be trusted in a high pressure situation. The man is already in Barcelona.

[robsblubot 3,530]

Well we just seem to differ in our interpretation of the most important characteristics of great centrebacks which to me falls into two category.

Mental qualities: Determination,concentration, temperament, courage and decision making

Tactical awareness: positioning,anticipation, tackling, communication, organisation skills,aerial ability .. . .

technical ability falls below those qualities everyday of the week for me and like I said before, I will take a technically average player that possess the characteristics listed in abundance over a "David Luiz" everytime.

For example JT was never the quickest defender even in his prime, Vidic has never possessed good/great passing ability,Hyypia,Tony adams,Thuram, carragher et al were never the most technically mesmerizing defenders nor the quickest and cannavaro wasn't a freak of nature physically but they were all able to dominate due to the fact that they possessed and relied on those qualities which I believe are more important than technical ability and physical gifts.

Wow! All I can say is good luck to you and England, because you are going to need it.

Now, I have an idea based on your requirements: Chelsea should be recruiting players directly from the military! I mean they would have most if not all the qualities you demand. Of course the minor problem there is that they won't be able to play football, but like you said, technique is not at the top of your priorities.

You know we are discussing football here don't you? Not warfare... no heroics required... just to be able to kick a football.

BTW, that's a pretty shitty CB list you got there...

It's just a game.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

We all know luiz has his mistakes. We know he can make some like against cardiff. But its not like he does that in every match he plays.

We have a problem of breaking down teams that sit deep. Because our central midfielders dont know how to send a long pass, we need luiz against the smaller teams

Dont you notice how the movement of our attacking four gets better when luiz is on the ball since they know he can easily find them with a long pass??

These smaller teams sit deep and allow our center backs to hold the ball so if luiz doesnt play, we watch a borefest of terry and cahill pass to each other and then to ivanovic all game.

The positives outweigh the negatives in my opinion, especially when we are comparing them to the other option we have which is cahill.

Wow, you're attributing a lot of quality play to Luiz that there is simply no evidence for which is why you think the positives are a lot higher than they actually are. Our movement in the attacking midfield is literally not one iota better with Luiz. The problem with the attacking midfield's spacing is that they don't space well not that they don't expect long passes.And easily find them with a long pass? Seriously? Luiz will hit one or two of those long passes a game and miss about 5. You act as if he's picking out attacking players with ease as opposed to just kicking the ball up the pitch and hoping an attacker gets on to it which is usually what he does. And you can't ignore the negatives of such play. Turning the ball over is a negative. Kick the ball up the pitch leads to lack of organization and looseness of attack. And the point is that Luiz's actions don't actually lead to goals. For example, WAGNH looked at hockey assists (second assists) for the first half of the season last year. Luiz had 0 second assists. (Ryan Bertrand had 2) That is, for all the hitting the ball up the pitch, it basically never leads directly to goals.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Wow, you're attributing a lot of quality play to Luiz that there is simply no evidence for which is why you think the positives are a lot higher than they actually are. Our movement in the attacking midfield is literally not one iota better with Luiz. The problem with the attacking midfield's spacing is that they don't space well not that they don't expect long passes.

You fail to see the point im making. These long passing you've been underestimating is what gerrard and alonso do in their sleep. Unfortunately, we have ramires and lamps. None of them do that and we've been saying our pivot is weak and needs strengthening for 3 seasons now. What exactly do these people in the pivot lack?? Thats right, the long passing and vision from deep. Thats where luiz helps in the matter, especially against teams who sit back and let the CENTERBACKS hold the ball all day. Luiz presence in this situation is far better than a bore-fest of Terry passing to Cahill all game.

And easily find them with a long pass? Seriously? Luiz will hit one or two of those long passes a game and miss about 5. You act as if he's picking out attacking players with ease as opposed to just kicking the ball up the pitch and hoping an attacker gets on to it which is usually what he does. And you can't ignore the negatives of such play. Turning the ball over is a negative. Kick the ball up the pitch leads to lack of organization and looseness of attack.

Even if he hits 10 and gets 5 wrong, its still better than us aimlessly passing between our center backs and then complaining in the match day threads that we dont get the ball to our attackers quicker. That problem of luiz turning over possession dangerously was because he used to come out of the defense to try to pass the ball, but now if you notice of late, he stays deeper when distributing the pass so that if torres miss-controls it, the defensive shape is not lost and we are still safe because the opponents are all camping in their half. [notice im talking about smaller teams that sit deep]

And the point is that Luiz's actions don't actually lead to goals. For example, WAGNH looked at hockey assists (second assists) for the first half of the season last year. Luiz had 0 second assists. (Ryan Bertrand had 2) That is, for all the hitting the ball up the pitch, it basically never leads directly to goals.

Thats why we need to sort our striker problems. Luiz passes a perfect ball to Ba against sunderland, and he missed a clear one on one chance.

And another thing he is the centre back, comparing him to the left back who attacks most of the time is not a fair comparison.

Luiz is better than cahill for us, no matter how you twist it. If we had thiago silva or kompany, then i'll gladly put luiz on the bench. But as long as its cahill, he is only better when we are sitting deep and defending for our lives against the big teams. I havent said luiz is the best defender in the world, but he is more important than cahill for us in my opinion.

[bushman 2,043]

It was Thursday not Wednesday. Luiz being a part in the Higuain deal is the twitter rumor.

Ok great, I just added some amps to it, then.

[The only place to be 11,313]

you really do play a different game in England. We Brazilians are simple people indeed, because we rate/measure all the players who have to kick the football exactly the same way (that's why we have mostly shitty GKs): either you are good enough or well, go ahead and find a different profession.

The abilities you rate the most, composure and physicality, are really auxiliary. That's why passing and first touch are considered fundamental skills.

You're completely missing the point. Technique is important but so are the mental aspects of the game. I've seen you denounce these aspects of the game so many times, yet they're fundamental in EVERY sport.

It's got nothing to do with you being Brazilian but having a complete lack of knowledge of top-level sports. You can go through any sport and see that the BEST were almost always mentally stronger than their competitors (Jordan, Russell, Manning, Brady, Schumacher etc.). David Luiz is a technically brilliant player but lots of us have concerns over the mental aspect of his game and rather than defend it, you'd rather marginalise it's importance.

[Reddish-Blue 2,355]

You're completely missing the point. Technique is important but so are the mental aspects of the game. I've seen you denounce these aspects of the game so many times, yet they're fundamental in EVERY sport.

It's got nothing to do with you being Brazilian but having a complete lack of knowledge of top-level sports. You can go through any sport and see that the BEST were almost always mentally stronger than their competitors (Jordan, Russell, Manning, Brady, Schumacher etc.). David Luiz is a technically brilliant player but lots of us have concerns over the mental aspect of his game and rather than defend it, you'd rather marginalise it's importance.

Unfortunately, you can't change a players approach to the game at Luiz's age.

He likes to take risks and get the ball forward.

If you want a no nonsense, consistent defender then Luiz isn't the answer.....then again, Cahill isn't the long term answer either..

[bushman 2,043]

Has any of you ever seen an athlete who wasn´t tough mentally & was winning ?

I have not. Mental aspect in any sport is a huge part of it. Either you are one tough cookie or you won´t win much.

[Blue Warrior 109]

The power of mental strength. Luiz problem is lapses of concentration and a careless attitude.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Me and dad was joking around the other day that Luiz could probably do an ok job as striker. Bags of confidence, would rather him than Cahill at the moment.

[robsblubot 3,530]

You're completely missing the point. Technique is important but so are the mental aspects of the game. I've seen you denounce these aspects of the game so many times, yet they're fundamental in EVERY sport.

It's got nothing to do with you being Brazilian but having a complete lack of knowledge of top-level sports. You can go through any sport and see that the BEST were almost always mentally stronger than their competitors (Jordan, Russell, Manning, Brady, Schumacher etc.). David Luiz is a technically brilliant player but lots of us have concerns over the mental aspect of his game and rather than defend it, you'd rather marginalise it's importance.

Nope, I did not miss the point at all. I completely agree all these attributes are important.

I completely disagree that Luiz lacks them; it's a matter of style... you cannot be assertive and use technique without incurring into some risk. Some here call it careless, I just call it playing his natural game. His performances for Brazil at conf cup and for Chelsea when he played injured and won the CL prove just that.

I also completely disagree with the importance you put in the mental aspects when the game is essentially how one handles the football. It doesn't matter how strong mentally one is if he cannot execute the fantastic ideas his great mentality comes up with.

Lucio's poor first touch creating a scoring opportunity - well taken by Owen. Technique failed Lucio... happens all the time in football.

Brazil have won a WC with Ronaldinho (not to mention Barcelona), mentally the weakest player I've ever seen. I know, not a CB, but so ridiculously weak for top level competition that he should've been a failure. His fantastic technique kept him going and became an asset for Brazil and Barca. Rivaldo was another player who could only work in very specific circunstances. Lucio from the video above, won just one World Cup and a Champions League (with Jose) as a ball-playing defender making constant forward runs just like David Luiz does.

Then we get into systems and how they can shield the deficiencies a particular player may have. So that his assets can be used. Now I look at the defenders you and others list here and they are all the same. The same type. Slow. Good in the air, tall and strong.

I am the one who wants to mix and match; I always want to pair a composed/great in the air defender who covers, with a pacier more aggressive defender who chases. So they don't play in line! You guys are the ones who like playing the exactly same player in both CB positions - makes no sense to me. Look at England and then look at how Spain and Germany play and understand what a deep defense line does to a team.

I grew up watching Frank DeBoer play for Ajax in a VERY high defense line. Fantastic team and fantastic defender. Would Frank DeBoer work in every system? Of course not! At least not as a defender (being 5"11' and very pacey).

So my point is that we DO KNOW David Luiz CAN work in certain systems. If that's not the way we want to go as a club (still think Roman and Jose are not on the same page here), then yes we should go a different direction.

So, is the point here that David Luiz is a bad player and he cannot work in ANY system? In any team or footballing school? Or is he not good in England because you play differently? Perhaps Chelsea's current system? If the former is your opinion, we should just pin this discussion for the WC and/or the time he is sold. Then we will see who is/was right.

[Peace. 4,352]

You fail to see the point im making. These long passing you've been underestimating is what gerrard and alonso do in their sleep. Unfortunately, we have ramires and lamps. None of them do that and we've been saying our pivot is weak and needs strengthening for 3 seasons now. What exactly do these people in the pivot lack?? Thats right, the long passing and vision from deep. Thats where luiz helps in the matter, especially against teams who sit back and let the CENTERBACKS hold the ball all day. Luiz presence in this situation is far better than a bore-fest of Terry passing to Cahill all game.

The way the two bolded parts are articulated is pretty fun, since it actually puts them into opposition.

When those teams sit back against us and let the center backs hold the ball ; what does it imply ? If the opposite team's defensive block is deep, then it means, when we are in the ball possession, that we have little space to maneuver and little space to pass the ball in — in other words, in these situations, long passes inexorably mean hoofing the ball into the air.

Who exactly is going to win aerial duels up front, and get the ball on the ground ? Is this going to be 1,70m Hazard ? Is this going to be the rest of the dwarf band, i.e. Oscar-Willian-Mata ? Is that going to be our set of inept-in-the-air strikers ?

Resorting to long aerial passes in those situations is just a waste of time — or simply a waste of ball possession. It is precisely a big problems of ours ; too many times in the past seasons, we have been resorting to aimlessly kick the ball in the air towards the attacking players because we had no clue how into build the game in midfield. Such long passes are not the solution because our attacking players cannot make anything out of them ; stressing the importance of Luiz because of his long balls is by consequence a misapprehension since not only such long passes are not useful, but also because the brazilian is actually wasteful at it as TorontoChelsea has rightfully pointed out numerous of times.

[Blue Warrior 109]

Already on the plane to Barcelona.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Nope, I did not miss the point at all. I completely agree all these attributes are important.

I completely disagree that Luiz lacks them; it's a matter of style... you cannot be assertive and use technique without incurring into some risk. Some here call it careless, I just call it playing his natural game. His performances for Brazil at conf cup and for Chelsea when he played injured and won the CL prove just that.

So his brainfarts are his 'style'? Who gives a fuck what he does for Brazil....this is Chelsea, not Brazil.

I also completely disagree with the importance you put in the mental aspects when the game is essentially how one handles the football. It doesn't matter how strong mentally one is if he cannot execute the fantastic ideas his great mentality comes up with.

This is amongst the silliest things I've read. You clearly don't understand the mental aspects of sport and how important they are. Ergo, I won't bother responding to you further on this topic.

[Tomo 21,733]

We knew what we were getting when we signed him. Cultured defenders are always going to take risks, it's their nature. Pique is the same, Lucio is the same, Dante does the same. Every now and again that nature will backfire. Lucio vs England, Pique in the confederations cup final, Dante in the super cup vs Chelsea. Hummels another example, see his mistake in the CL semi final against Real Madrid at home?

If i had to compare Cahill (in terms off defensive capabilities) to a Brazillian defender it would be Felipe Santana, and he's bench surfing in the German league and can't get anywhere near Brazil's squad. Luiz vs Cahill wouldn't be debatable in any other country, Luiz is class, Cahill is a good squad player.

It's like Gary Neville pointed out, these type of defenders are winning WC/Euro's and confederation's while the traditional old school defenders are going home at the last 8 stage, at best.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

The way the two bolded parts are articulated is pretty fun, since it actually puts them into opposition.

When those teams sit back against us and let the center backs hold the ball ; what does it imply ? If the opposite team's defensive block is deep, then it means, when we are in the ball possession, that we have little space to maneuver and little space to pass the ball in — in other words, in these situations, long passes inexorably mean hoofing the ball into the air.

Who exactly is going to win aerial duels up front, and get the ball on the ground ? Is this going to be 1,70m Hazard ? Is this going to be the rest of the dwarf band, i.e. Oscar-Willian-Mata ? Is that going to be our set of inept-in-the-air strikers ?

Resorting to long aerial passes in those situations is just a waste of time — or simply a waste of ball possession. It is precisely a big problems of ours ; too many times in the past seasons, we have been resorting to aimlessly kick the ball in the air towards the attacking players because we had no clue how into build the game in midfield. Such long passes are not the solution because our attacking players cannot make anything out of them ; stressing the importance of Luiz because of his long balls is by consequence a misapprehension since not only such long passes are not useful, but also because the brazilian is actually wasteful at it as TorontoChelsea has rightfully pointed out numerous of times.

I dont really understand what you mean by the short players. Barca pass a lot from deep and their attack are shorter than ours. Im not talking of just hoofing the ball in the sky, lampard did that a lot for drogba but luiz attempts curling passes like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPQpALvnAOE&feature=player_detailpage

Bernard in that video is shorter than everyone in our team.

And when i'm talking about long passes, im also implying on how it helps speed up our play. It took one pass to get to bernard in that video, in chelsea, cahill passes to terry, who passes to lamps, who passes to oscar, by the time the ball gets there, the defence have marked the attacker.

Long passes speed our play up, so we need as much help from luiz as we can get against defensive minded teams.

What you and torontochelsea complained of is how he wastes possession at times but i said that its still better than cahill just passing between him and terry which takes us no where in terms of creating a chance. David luiz presence is still better than cahill for us. We lack creativity from our CM and luiz helps in that.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

We knew what we were getting when we signed him. Cultured defenders are always going to take risks, it's their nature. Pique is the same, Lucio is the same, Dante does the same. Every now and again that nature will backfire. Lucio vs England, Pique in the confederations cup final, Dante in the super cup vs Chelsea. Hummels another example, see his mistake in the CL semi final against Real Madrid at home?

If i had to compare Cahill (in terms off defensive capabilities) to a Brazillian defender it would be Felipe Santana, and he's bench surfing in the German league and can't get anywhere near Brazil's squad. Luiz vs Cahill wouldn't be debatable in any other country, Luiz is class, Cahill is a good squad player.

It's like Gary Neville pointed out, these type of defenders are winning WC/Euro's and confederation's while the traditional old school defenders are going home at the last 8 stage, at best.

Agreed. Still, Cahill trumps Luis by a long way this season.

[lionsden 4,689]

David luiz the regista sans playmaker. He's not totally useless afterall.

It would have been a tad nicer and more beneficial to the team if the accolade he receives is more about his defending rather than his playmaking abilities and style of play.