🇧🇷 David Luiz

[The Skipper 20,609]

Luiz is a defender. That's what he's going to be for us and that's where he's been best this season. Converting him to a midfielder full-time isn't realistic and this is similar to last season when we had Bertrand on the left-wing to do a job that we didn't have the personnel to do.

Two things about Mikel - the idea that he needs to be pushed is embarrassing, disgraceful and probably true. I've alluded to his attitude before but that's one of the reasons Luiz gets the nod ahead of him at the moment. Not to turn this thread into a Mikel-bashing thread but he's not the type of person/human/man I want representing this club. I also think you've got it back-to-front with Mikel in terms of teams who press him. Southampton did it and we lost. Steaua did it and he looked unsteady.

The great myth about the Man United cup game is that he came on and changed the game, but the truth (or the way I saw it anyway) is that United stopped pushing from midfield. They sat back and we managed to get on top of them. If teams give Mikel time then we'll win but if they put pressure on him then we're in trouble.

Luiz is by no means the perfect midfielder, but he's never a passenger. He will actually drive the team forward at times - just look at those straight, powerfully-hit passes he'll knock forward to Ba or a winger cutting in that slice through a teams first bank of defenders. When teams set up with two banks (as Swansea did for the first 30 minutes on Sunday) those passes forced them to re-align and it creates a sense of urgency in both teams. He also gets stuck in on the defensive side of the ball, but he can be too ambitious and get caught out sometimes.

Hopefully we either bring someone in next season or Romeu picks up where he left off and becomes that guy who invigorates the team going forward but is also a strong defensive presence.

Fully agree on your view about Luiz and his role in midfield, and you know my views on Mikel already; like you said we shouldn't derail & turn this into another Mikel debate! What I will say though is that he's going through a rough patch at the moment and it's easy to kick a dog when he's down. He's still a good player in my opinion, but right now he just isn't motivated - maybe that's due to Rafa, we don't know. But we'll leave it there.

About that ManU game, I dont think people want to admit that what changed the game in our favour was replacing Moses with Hazard. We conceded two very early goals (1 because of a worldly pass from Carrick) and after that we had a lot of chances to score. But upfront Moses was absolutely atrocious in the first half. Wrong decisions, poor crosses and some poor finishing kept us from scoring in that first half. Hazard came on, took things into his own hands, played with a purpose and we were back in it.

Thing is, everyone acknowledged that Hazard changed the game for us but Mikel played a role in that too. Everyone can admit that Hazard had a big say in the turn around. Mikel got praised because he gave our forwards a nice platform and recycled possession well.

[bleed_blue 136]

Thing is, everyone acknowledged that Hazard changed the game for us but Mikel played a role in that too. Everyone can admit that Hazard had a big say in the turn around. Mikel got praised because he gave our forwards a nice platform and recycled possession well.

OK lets agree to disagree on that. The game I saw, we were creating chances and putting United under pressure in the first half as well, only the goals were missing.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

What i am saying is that imo, he is better in defence... However, he is better than the options wenhave in midfield as well. If we had a DM who was better than mikel then I would say to play David Luiz in defence, but David Luiz isn't that much better than Ivanovic, Terry, and cahill... Whereas atm he is a lot better than mikel in midfield.
So, I think individually he is better in defence but as a team we benefit more from him in midfield.

Yes I get that that is your opinion, I'm just asking why? Why do you think Luiz in midfield is better than our other options?

I will take a shot.
First of all to me, Luiz at CB > Luiz at CM.
However, current Chelsea squad with Luiz at CM > current Chelsea squad with Luiz at CB.

So what I am saying is, Luiz is a better defender than he is a midfielder, but at the same time, he is Chelsea's best midfielder of the present options.
Lampard has the passing range, footballing brain but what he lacks is speed and defensive workrate.
Mikel on the other hand, passing range is very limited, workrate is very poor and is very ponderous on the ball.

Luiz has the tendency to be rash and also tries to do too much sometimes that can end up costing us. But with that, you get a lot of upside. We have seen him play lovely long balls many times this season, he is always looking to make something out of our possession rather than just wait and ponder over the ball while the opposition gets back into shape (ala Mikel).

Mikel's passing range may be limited (with Chelsea, he's shown he can play long balls excellently with Nigeria), but he has one of the highest pass completion rate in the league. If you want to play possession football, he's a much better option than Luiz who's passing accuracy is too low to be playing at DM even though he's only played there against smaller teams that don't press. The name of the game we are (allegedly) trying to play at Chelsea is "keep the ball".

Luiz does have excellent vision and great technique in playing long balls, and we have indeed benefited from that this season when he is playing in defense and has the time and space to pick out and execute long balls. While when he is playing in midfield, where there are a lot more bodies and a lot less time on the ball, the opportunities to play such balls are scarce.

We've also benefited from Luiz's instinct to go forward when he has played in defense. He gives us an extra man in midfield when he makes his forward runs which compromises the opposition defensive systems. This has proved that it could be a great weapon, as long as he chooses his runs carefully and they are integrated into our attacking system so someone can cover for him.

Luiz may have a better defensive work rate than Lamps, but it accounts for very little when he defends like a CB and not a midfielder. By that I mean he is way too aggressive in his defending to be playing in midfield. David is always trying to nick the ball and go for that tackle when the days of midfielders doing that have long since ended. Defending in midfield, especially for a DM, is all about discipline, staying on your feet, blocking the passing angles and forcing the error. Tackling is something a DM resorts to when he is caught out of position, not something that he should be looking to do. I lost count of the time where Luiz, against Basel and Swansea, tried to nick the ball, committed himself needlessly to the tackle but failed to win the ball and the opposition player had a chance to run at our defense. We were lucky that those two teams did not punish us, but against better quality teams, be sure that those mistakes will be costly.

Finally, I'm very surprised that one of the points of criticism for Mikel you mentioned is that he "ponderous" on the ball; not because it is not true (which it is), but because Luiz is worse in the aspect. He often needs 1-2 touches more than any of our other midfielders before he can play the pass. But it's not his fault, that's perfectly natural for a defender. Luiz is a better passer than the vast majority of CBs, but as a midfielder his passing is at best average.

When you play Luiz in midfield, you take away a lot of his passing abilities, defending abilities, long balls..etc basically everything that makes him such a special player.


Above is why I want Luiz to play in defense. Now, I've already touched on some the points above, but here is, briefly, why I don't want Luiz to play in midfield:

- Bad ball retention skill.
- Insisting on dribble when surrounded by opposition players and ending up in losing the ball on about at least 5-6 occasions.
- Sloppy passing.
- Too aggressive in defending. Always look to nick the ball instead of staying disciplined and not committing to a tackle.
- Weak positional sense.

Should I go on?


Luiz has amazing technical abilities; he's an amazing footballer. But why in the world should that mean he should play in midfield?! Offensively, we've gained enormously from his outstanding abilities when he's played at CB. From his long balls, from his ability to pass, from his long shots, from when he moves forward and adds numbers to the midfield. But he's been able to do all that because he's playing at CB. Why move him to midfield where he'll be under pressure and won't be able to execute any of that?

Luiz is not a midfielder, he's a defender, and an excellent one as well. I just can't understand why someone would want to play him out of position.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Can you three please make smaller posts? Makes it so diificult to read on the go.

[bleed_blue 136]

@choulo19: That is some warped definition of tackling and being ponderous on the ball. Also you are unable to distinguish between always taking the safe route while passing vs playing possession football. I am out of this.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

Luiz is such a good footballer that you can probably give him a run out in any position and he'll still end up doing good things, but he'll also do bad things. The only reason he's getting praise right now is that his good and bad things are different (not necessarily better) than the alternatives. If we're in a bind and have no one to field in the midfield, by all means give Luiz a run out but to argue that he should be converted to a DM doesn't make sense to me. We should rather just get through this season as best as we can and sign players that can actually play in the pivot, if 4-2-3-1 is the future (I want 4-3-3). At the moment, I'd say we don't have a single player good enough to be first choice pivot player for a team looking to win UCL, EPL. We have players who can do a job depending on the type of game and opponent but not one player who I'd be comfortable being considered first choice regardless of opposition.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@choulo19: That is some warped definition of tackling and being ponderous on the ball. Also you are unable to distinguish between always taking the safe route while passing vs playing possession football. I am out of this.

I thought you wanted a discussion...Shame.

[Hutcho 8,443]

Yes I get that that is your opinion, I'm just asking why? Why do you think Luiz in midfield is better than our other options?

Oh, ok i see what you are asking now.

Basically.

ATM:

Mikel is too slow, and seems very lethargic on the ball, and off the ball. He offers little in the build up play (which isn't a problem if he is next to someone like modric, but he isn't).

Ramires, will run all day up and down, but pasisng has left something to be desired, lacks some physicality and isn't a DM, or DLP.

Lampard is the greatest! But in all seriousness, he doesn't offer enough in defence, unless he has someone who can be more defensive orientated next to him.

Imo, a Luiz/Lampard or Luiz/Ramires Pivot provides a blend of Defensive abilty and some roaming forwards.

Luiz, imo, is able to sit in when needed, as after all he is a defender, but he can go on those marauding runs forward. He also is better passing from deep than mikel and ramires.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Oh, ok i see what you are asking now.

Basically.

ATM:

Mikel is too slow, and seems very lethargic on the ball, and off the ball. He offers little in the build up play (which isn't a problem if he is next to someone like modric, but he isn't).

Ramires, will run all day up and down, but pasisng has left something to be desired, lacks some physicality and isn't a DM, or DLP.

Lampard is the greatest! But in all seriousness, he doesn't offer enough in defence, unless he has someone who can be more defensive orientated next to him.

Imo, a Luiz/Lampard or Luiz/Ramires Pivot provides a blend of Defensive abilty and some roaming forwards.

Luiz, imo, is able to sit in when needed, as after all he is a defender, but he can go on those marauding runs forward. He also is better passing from deep than mikel and ramires.

I think you, somewhat, have a point, but for the reasons I stated in that post (Please don't make me write them again ) I think the cons out-weigh the pros of playing Luiz in midfield.

[Hutcho 8,443]

I think you, somewhat, have a point, but for the reasons I stated in that post (Please don't make me write them again ) I think the cons out-weigh the pros of playing Luiz in midfield.

Ok, i'll admit i didn't see that. I'll go read that now.

[Jase 43,479]

From computer joke to future captain... one day Chelsea will thank Rafa for taming Luiz

[Jype 6,398]

From computer joke to future captain... one day Chelsea will thank Rafa for taming Luiz

Pretty much what I was saying the other day, good to see other noticing it too. Probably one of the few things Benitez has gotten right during his time at the club.

[Henrique 9,133]

Benitez should rest Luiz tomorrow to avoid a yellow. He must play in the final.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

From computer joke to future captain... one day Chelsea will thank Rafa for taming Luiz

When I say it, I get stick for it but when some journo writes it, he's spot on!

[robsblubot 3,595]

When I say it, I get stick for it but when some journo writes it, he's spot on!

Benitez, "Oi Luiz! Could you refrain from making forward runs a bit? Especially when your DM and/or FBs are not behind you."

Luiz, "Sure boss!"

Done!

Seriously, players improve as they play and gain experience. Managers and coaches can speed up or slow down their development, but it's a natural process. While Benitez must be given credit for it, one cannot say it was *because* of Benitez.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Benitez, "Oi Luiz! Could you refrain from making forward runs a bit? Especially when your DM and/or FBs are not behind you."

Luiz, "Sure boss!"

Done!

Seriously, players improve as they play and gain experience. Managers and coaches can speed up or slow down their development, but it's a natural process. While Benitez must be given credit for it, one cannot say it was *because* of Benitez.

You can when that same player has been managed by three different managers previously at Chelsea and did not show any signs of improvement back then. I hate Benitez as much as the next Chelsea fan, but there is no point to go out of our way to discredit what he's managed to do here.

[robsblubot 3,595]

You can when that same player has been managed by three different managers previously at Chelsea and did not show any signs of improvement back then. I hate Benitez as much as the next Chelsea fan, but there is no point to go out of our way to discredit what he's managed to do here.

How do you know they all actually instructed Luiz to refrain from making too many forward runs?

TBH, I find this idea that being "composed" is so difficult and needs so much work a bit silly. David *can* make forward runs because he has the quality to do that. Most other defenders don't have such quality and some are even extremely poor on the ball (that's a bad player in my book). Whether he makes the runs and how often he makes them is all up to the manager otherwise David would lose his starting spot, would he not? Players are released for less than explicit disobeying instructions from their managers. I've heard Luiz saying managers encouraged him to make the runs--not surprising.

Now, if we are going to talk about his real deficiencies, which are heading and positioning; and defenders work on their positioning all their careers. Frankly, havne't noticed any crazy improvement in either one. Luiz remains the same excellent player he was since his first game for Chelsea, with his immense virtues (mental and technical) as well as his deficiencies. Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

[The Skipper 20,609]

How do you know they all actually instructed Luiz to refrain from making too many forward runs?

TBH, I find this idea that being "composed" is so difficult and needs so much work a bit silly. David *can* make forward runs because he has the quality to do that. Most other defenders don't have such quality and some are even extremely poor on the ball (that's a bad player in my book). Whether he makes the runs and how often he makes them is all up to the manager otherwise David would lose his starting spot, would he not? Players are released for less than explicit disobeying instructions from their managers. I've heard Luiz saying managers encouraged him to make the runs--not surprising.

Now, if we are going to talk about his real deficiencies, which are heading and positioning; and defenders work on their positioning all their careers. Frankly, havne't noticed any crazy improvement in either one. Luiz remains the same excellent player he was since his first game for Chelsea, with his immense virtues (mental and technical) as well as his deficiencies. Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

How do you know they all actually instructed Luiz to refrain from making too many forward runs?

TBH, I find this idea that being "composed" is so difficult and needs so much work a bit silly. David *can* make forward runs because he has the quality to do that. Most other defenders don't have such quality and some are even extremely poor on the ball (that's a bad player in my book). Whether he makes the runs and how often he makes them is all up to the manager otherwise David would lose his starting spot, would he not? Players are released for less than explicit disobeying instructions from their managers. I've heard Luiz saying managers encouraged him to make the runs--not surprising.

Now, if we are going to talk about his real deficiencies, which are heading and positioning; and defenders work on their positioning all their careers. Frankly, havne't noticed any crazy improvement in either one. Luiz remains the same excellent player he was since his first game for Chelsea, with his immense virtues (mental and technical) as well as his deficiencies. Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

You haven't played football, have you? The toughest thing for a football player is discipline. And I'm talking about the forward runs but also about the aggressiveness in defense (in his first year here, Luiz had given away more pens than any other player in the league) as well as wandering off a and chasing strikers to the half-way line. I hardly think the previous managers were encouraging David to do that.

[Leif 6,006]

Instead of debating whether he's better in defence or midfield which seems to cause some actual arguments, why not just be happy that we have such a versatile player who's capable as a stand-in defensive midfielder (and could probably stand in for even Mata given the chance! Who knows!) and a future (potentially) world-class centre-back?

I think it's obvious his career will be made in the heart of defence, but at the same time, he'd improve almost any club in the world by playing in midfield.

Just be happy we have such a talent at our club who gives us plenty of options and passion on the pitch.

When Mikel isn't needed for a particular game or it's simply the wrong match for him, David Luiz the midfielder can play.

When we need someone to slow down the match and Mikel starts, David Luiz the defender can play.

I still really want to see him play as a striker though. He could be the next Pele IMO.