Politics & Stuff

[Dion 2,476]

Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

Why? I'm learning a lot, I wanna see everything

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Why? I wanna see everything

Oh I am replying in public

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

What's up bro? Read the next verse, Qur'an 9:30. I think the context to the preceding verse is very clear.

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

It's very clear. The reason why Jews and Muslims must be fought is because of their belief, not because Muslims are fighting back in self defense. This is a common deflective tactic that Imam's use to explain away this verse. And it continues in the next verse. Allah complaining about "unbelief". Nothing about self defense:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

"Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us" --------------

How true is this? Qur'an 48:29

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

More to the point, Allah certainly doesn't consider Non-Muslims equal to Muslims. Qur'an 8:55:

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

And it continues in Qur'an 98:6:

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

"Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity." ---------------

Again, this is not very true. This is gotten from Qur'an 5:32, a verse the Qur'an burrows from the Jewish Tanakh and is not applicable to Muslims . It is the favourite verse of Muslim apologists to prove that Islam is a religion of peace when it is not.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The next verse is the command for Muslims.

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

These are the same punishments practiced in Saudi Arabia under Sharia.

"Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)"

To get back to the gist of your comment, this is completely false and not true. Anyone who has read Hadith Bukhari or Muslim or that has read the biography of Muhammad knows he and the early Muslms killed innocent people. People who mocked him were killed. Asma Bint Marwan for example. People who didn't convert to Islam were killed. Non-Muslims were persecuted and killed. Jews were exiled from Arabia.

Muhammad's words in the Hadith. The context is very clear. It's Hadith afterall:

very cle

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

It's pretty obvious from just a cursory glance at the Muslim sources that most of what you wrote is incorrect. Islam commands it's followers to fight against unbelievers in order to spread Islam. If they are Jews or Christians, they are given option of Jizya under Dhimmitude. Pagans and Atheists are not so lucky. It's convert or die. Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

No problem body. Really simple just long

Let us start with the first shall we. Surat Al Tawba verse 9. Again for the sake of transperancy I will put the Arabic text and the translation of Yousef Ali.

Now Surat Al Tawba verse 30.

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتْ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِؤُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

30. The Jews call ’Uzair a son Of God, and the Christians Call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate What the Unbelievers of old Used to say. God's curse Be on them: how they are deluded Away from the Truth!

Typical misquotation and interpretation. You assumed that because God condemns it, it means that Muslims, have to act upon it and go fight Jews. You forgot to also accuse Muslims that they should fight Christians. LOL. Thus you are ignoring basic principles taught to Muslims in elementary schools. That is no Muslim should judge anyone on his faith. The judgement is for God and only God when we die and meet him. The simple verse that 10 yr olds learn as I did is as follows:

Surat Al Ghashia, verses 21-26

21- فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُذَكِّرٌ

22 -لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

23- إِلاَّ مَن تَوَلَّى وَكَفَرَ

24- فَيُعَذِّبُهُ اللَّهُ الْعَذَابَ الأَكْبَرَ

25- إِنَّ إِلَيْنَا إِيَابَهُمْ

26- ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا حِسَابَهُمْ

21. Wherefore do thou give admonition, for thou art, one to admonish.

22. Thou art not one to manage (men's) affairs.

23. But if any turn away and reject God,—

24. God will punish him with a mighty punishment,

25. For to Us ( God) will be their Return;

26. Then it will be for Us ( God) to call them to account.

Clearly states that the only one who will judge people upon their faith is God. Not another human being, Muslim or non. There is a whole and other versus saying the same. But again talk without true knowledge does not lead to much my friend. I suggest you read more. Not to mention that you TOTALLY IGNORED the first verse that says you do not fight unless you are attacked. That was just a very bad move.

Let us go for the Second account you have.

Surat Al Fateh verse 29

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

29. Muhammad is the Apostle Of God; and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (In prayer), seeking Grace From God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their Marks, (being) the traces Of their prostration. This is their similitude In the Taurāt And their similitude In the Gospel is: Like a seed which sends

Forth its blade, then Makes it strong; it then Becomes thick, and it stands On its own stem, (filling) The sowers with wonder And delight. As a result, It fills the Unbelievers With rage at them. God has promised those Among them who believe And do righteous deeds Forgiveness, And a great Reward.

Now this point is REALLY weak. The only reference God makes in this verse to the Jews and the Christians, is in by basically saying " there are example of those Muslims, who are pray and seeking God's grace in the Turah (i.e Jews) and in the Gospel ( i.e. Christians). Another reason to actually like the Jews and the Christians. You check out what the Jewish Scholars say about Muslims and that all prophets are.

Here is one of many videos from Jews

Now the part about Muslim being merciful with each other and harsh on " non-believers" . Do you have the slightest idea who the non-believers that the text is talking about specifically? I hardly doubt. They are the non-believers of the tribe Quraish. Yes the ones who tortured Muslim, killed Muslims, the ones that believed in slavery based on skin color and social status, the ones who used to bury born baby girls alive because they believed they would bring shame to them and wanted only male offsrpings.......etc. They were the enemies who killed Muslims at the time. No video cameras at the time or a press so I can't claim a Holocaust. But let us go back to the verse. " Muhammad is the Apostle Of God; and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other". Now bearing in mind who those non believers are, now that I told you, where does it say go kill them? It says to be strong against them right? Tough against them right? Sure I do the same to my enemies if they have killed my mother,father,daughter,son, wife, friend. Wouldn't you? Is than an ABNORMAL FEELING to any human. But it doesn't say go kill them does it? And it is referring to a specific time and a specific enemy during that specific time. You really want to know what we should do with unbelievers? I really doubt, because if you wanted we have a whole chapter (short) telling us how we deal with non believers.

Here Surat Al Kaferoon ( Chapter "Unbelievers" . "no faith")

1- قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ

2- لا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ

3- وَلا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

4- وَلا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ

5- وَلا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

6- لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

1- Say: O ye that reject Faith! (unbelievers)

2. I worship not that Which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship That which I worship.

4. And I will not worship That which ye have been Wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship That which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, And to me mine.

Hmmmmm, anything about killing here mate? This is a chapter for the unbelievers. As you have realized, God is telling Mohammed and other Muslims nothing about killing or fighting. Unlike the other verses that had specific events and reasons for fighting. Again only to defend. But you missed that. A whole chapter for what English translators refer to as unbelievers, people with no faith, infidels....etc and God doesn't tell Muslim to to something. Just Muslims have their way of worship and non believers have theirs. No compulsion! No if you don't believe Muslims should go kill. I assume you mean ofcourse by non believers, non Muslims/non Christians/non Jews. You are clearly fishing for something here .

Whatever God thinks is for God not for me as a human being to act on his behalf. If all Jews believe in Jesus then why aren't they Christians. Isn't it through Jesus lies salvation. Jews believe in Judaism and that that is the way to heaven. Other ways not acceptable. Christians believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ no other way. So you do you want to hold it against Muslims who believe that the way to heaven is through Islam? . And at the end of the day, there will come a time when we will be judged and the only one who can do this is the Creator. Not a human being like I said. Hence, no Muslim is allowed to judge any faith even anyone from his own faith. faith is something in the heart.

The part about God doesn't see Muslims and non-Muslims equal.. Your words kind of fail you here my friend. There are non- Muslims, like the people of the Holy books that believe in God i.e Christians and Jews. And there are Non-Muslims as in others who do not believe in God or have any other faiths. To make it easy and short, THAT SPECIFIC TEXT Surat Al Anfal, verse 55, was for MUSLIMS TELLING THEM NOT TO BE HYPOCRITES NOT DIRECTED TO NON BELIEVERS OR CHRISTIANS OR JEWS. Man you really messed that one up. Let us see, so we will start from verse 45. We don't want to misquote or take out of context do we?

45 - يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا لَقِيتُمْ فِئَةً فَاثْبُتُواْ وَاذْكُرُواْ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

46- وَأَطِيعُواْ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلاَ تَنَازَعُواْ فَتَفْشَلُواْ وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ وَاصْبِرُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

47- وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ خَرَجُواْ مِن دِيَارِهِم بَطَرًا وَرِئَاء النَّاسِ وَيَصُدُّونَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ مُحِيطٌ

48- وَإِذْ زَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ وَقَالَ لاَ غَالِبَ لَكُمُ الْيَوْمَ مِنَ النَّاسِ وَإِنِّي جَارٌ لَّكُمْ فَلَمَّا تَرَاءَتِ الْفِئَتَانِ نَكَصَ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ وَقَالَ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّنكُمْ إِنِّي أَرَى مَا لاَ تَرَوْنَ إِنِّيَ أَخَافُ اللَّهَ وَاللَّهُ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

49- إِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ غَرَّ هَؤُلاء دِينُهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

50- وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ

51- ذَلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَيْسَ بِظَلاَّمٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ

52- كَدَأْبِ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَأَخَذَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِذُنُوبِهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَوِيٌّ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

53- ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَكُ مُغَيِّرًا نِّعْمَةً أَنْعَمَهَا عَلَى قَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُواْ مَا بِأَنفُسِهِمْ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

54- كَدَأْبِ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ فَأَهْلَكْنَاهُم بِذُنُوبِهِمْ وَأَغْرَقْنَا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَكُلٌّ كَانُواْ ظَالِمِينَ

55- إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِندَ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ

56- الَّذِينَ عَاهَدتَّ مِنْهُمْ ثُمَّ يَنقُضُونَ عَهْدَهُمْ فِي كُلِّ مَرَّةٍ وَهُمْ لاَ يَتَّقُونَ

45. O ye who believe! When ye meet a force, Be firm, and call God In remembrance much (and often); That ye may prosper:

46. And obey God and His Apostle; And fall into no disputes, Lest ye lose heart And your power depart; And be patient and persevering: For God is with those Who patiently persevere:

47. And be not like those who started from their homes insolently and to be seen of men, and to hinder (men) from the path of God: for God compasseth round about all that they do.

48. Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem Alluring to them, and said: "No one among men Can overcome you this day, While I am near to you" But when the two forces Came in sight of each other, He turned on his heels, And said: "Lo! I am clear Of you; to! I see What ye see not; Lo! I fear God; for God Is strict in punishment.

49- Lo! the Hypocrites say, and those In whose hearts is a disease: "These people,—their religion Has misled them." But If any trust in God, behold! God is Exalted in might, Wise.

50. If thou couldst see, When the angels take the souls Of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces And their backs, (saying): "Taste the Penalty of the blazing Fire—

51. "Because of (the deeds) which Your (own) hands sent forth: For God is never unjust To His servants:

52. "(Deeds) after the manner Of the People of Pharaoh And of those before them: They rejected the Signs of God, And God punished them For their crimes: for God Is Strong, and Strict in punishment:

53. "Because God will never change The Grace which He hath bestowed On a people until they change What is in their (own) souls: And verily God is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things)."

54. "(Deeds) after the manner Of the People of Pharaoh And those before them": They treated as false the Signs Of their Lord: so We Destroyed them for their crimes, And We drowned the People Of Pharaoh: for they were all Oppressors and wrong-doers.

55. For the worst of beasts In the sight of God Are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

56. They are those with whom Thou didst make a covenant, But they break their covenant Every time, and they have not The fear (of God).

Ok, now I don't think I will elaborate. But seriously where do you see God talking about non-believers? AAAAHHHHH when he is referring to the people of the Pharaoh of Egypt. Now remind me again what did the Pharoah and his people do? Yes that is right, they enslaved the Jews and fought Moses. My guess is, the Jews don't like the Pharoah either . Other than that, God is talking to Muslims at a specific areas, when during war against the tribe of Quraish, there were hypocrites and liars, who infront of the people talk about their bravery but when a war starts they hide in their homes. Again my friend you fail. There is a specific context the verse is referring too, but as I can really see you just copy pasted that from somewhere and added some of your own.

Now are Muslims and non-Muslims in the same to God? As in what, heaven and hell? I think I answered that one already. About the animal part which God is referring to the Pharoah and his people who enslaved the Jews, I guess yeah God doesn't see the Pharoah and his people ACTS the same as the acts of good BELIEVERS IN GOD. i.e Christianity, Judiasm and Islam and any other faiths who believe in God, worship him and nothing but him.

Now to your interesting closing points about the Hadith and so on. You know what a hadith is? It is the sayings of Mohammed. You know when they were gathered? Over a century and a half after Mohammed's death. Can you imagine a Chinese whisper game for a century and a half?LOL. Let me make this as clear as possible. The Quran, is memorized and recited on daily basis during that time.It was taught every day and repeated during the 5 daily prayers not to mention the extra prayers. Then it was written. The hadith or the saying is different. It is like me having a conversation with you right now and hanging out in a pub or something. Then later on I go to a friend in a few days and tell him about the conversation that you and I had. What are the chances that I say the exact conversation word for word to me friend? What are the chances that I will keep repeating that conversation word for word? Dude, even the science the we learn, we keep putting it in our own words. The most thing we do is memorize an equation. But defining the equation will differ from you , o another American, to another British.....etc. I am comparing vital teachings here. We want to know a hadeeth is right or not we put it against the Quran. If it contradicts, then we don't take it. Bukhari, Moslem, Abu Huraira, or whomever it is. If it fails then it is dropped. If a Muslim is in doubt about it, he automatically rejects it. If a Muslim is sure of it he can ignore it. As for the accusations you are throwing around about Mohammed and the Muslims at the time going on killing innocents and so on, then you should know better. You should know that there is no truth behind these accusations. Yeah a Muslim can kill, but it is not because his book says to do do. Now you are half British half Nigerian, living in the U.S and possibly continuing your education. So you are a man of intellect and logic I assume. Why is this religion spreading so fast despite of the clear things that think of? Why has such a bloody, violent religion is increasing faster than any other one in Europe and the U.S.? There must be something buddy that you are getting wrong . Like misinterpretations, misquotations, throwing accusations, and false information.

Again, what you are trying to imply is nothing solid. If I want to debate Christianity for example, I would have to study it first. Study the language in which it is written to get the original meaning. Understand that culture and time that it was delivered to put things in context. I doubt you know anything about Islam from proper readings or a few Arabic sentences. Same as Judaism, I would need to study the Torah and learn both Hebrew and Aramiac. My Torah teacher should be a Jewish Scholar as my Bible teacher should be a Christian Scholar. Ofcourse that is assuming that I want to really understand without being biased. But if I want to be biased, then I could just listen to any fool who says crap about religions and take things out of contexts and throw it around to make a point. Come on mate, you are better that that. And those questions, they are really simple, but they take a while to write.

Oh one more thing The point about us taking a quote from the Torah and putting it in the Quran, you are wrong. I made it clear in my previous post that we have to believe in all the prophets and all the Holy books. Muslims are a continuation of the religions, just like Christianity was a continuation to Judiasm. You will find a lot of similarities. Especially Muslims and Jews. Check that youtube again.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

@MrExcalibur100, Now for the sake of transparency, I had to answer you in public. No harsh feelings

[Parky 739]

Can I ask if you guys both Jewish and Arab believe there will ever be peace for future generations ?

I can only see a vicious circle of hate continuing. The middle east is a mess atm with Islamic secretarial in-fighting as well as the conflict between the Jews and Palestinians. What hope is there for your children with all this hate around.

My conclusion is the human species is the 'Problem'. World peace will exist either when we destroy our planets ability to sustain us or we and we kill each off by nuclear, chemical and biological warfare.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

@Mohammed Seif

I'll keep it short and try to be as nice as possible . I'm not going to give a detailed response to that on this thread because I don't want to detract too much from what it's meant for. I took my time to read what you typed and it was what I expected. Of course as a Muslim I don't expect you to be publicly critical of Islam. You have chosen to come up with a very peaceful interpretation of these verses but the problem with your interpretation is that it's mostly based off of opinion and the wrong inference that you have to understand Arabic to understand the Qur'an. Most people in the world don't understand Arabic. The Qur'an claims to be a "clear" book. You don't have to understand Hebrew language or Koine Greek to be able to understand the verses of the Bible. This is the job of theologians that study it in College and who learn the original language for exegetical reasons. Most Muslims don't even speak Arabic, which is ironic to begin with.

A misconception you made. You don't have to go biblical "scholars" to understand scripture, instead, in Christianity, it is God who reveals scripture to us Christians, not Man. One of the MANY differences between the two religions.

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Most of the verses I gave were given in right context and that context was gotten straight from qtafsir.com, which is a wonderful site on Qur'anic commentary by Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Qur'anic commentators of all time, not from some biased source. I'll take his commentary of the Qur'an over yours. Now you can choose to believe in a more peaceful, tolerant version of Islam that suits you (many don't) but that doesn't mean that that Islam is the legitimate one practiced by Muhammad and his early Muslims. There is a reason why many Muhujadeen are waging Jihad in many diverse countries (from China to Nigeria) around the world today. They are only following the example of the prophet of Islam.

And as to why Islam has many followers. It's an obvious fact that Muslim countries have a far higher birthrate than most other Christian majority countries. It's a fairly known fact that many of Muslim converts in the early/middle ages converted because they couldn't bare to leave as Dhimmi's under Islamic rule in the Ottoman empire. It's It's also a well known fact that Islam has a death penalty for Apostasy. Muhammad said "whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him". A religion says kill those who leave it, yet you're surprised they're many followers?

Put yourself as a Non-Muslim for a second and think about that. How many people would have left Islam in the ME if they weren't threatened with death. Can you apostatize from Islam in Egypt without being in BIG trouble, worst case scenario, death? I have a Coptic Christian friend and he was talking to me on how horrible the "blasphemy" (blasphemy to speak bad about Muhammad? a man?) law is and how Coptic Christians are basically second class citizens.

Besides, it's an irrelevant point because Christianity has at least a billion more followers, but I doubt you believe Christianity is true.

As for a Jewish Rabbi saying that Islam is the oldest religion, apart from the fact that that is laughable to a non-Muslim, how is it relevant? Most Jews will strongly disagree with that. I also heard a Catholic priest on youtube say the God of the Bible is the same as the God of the Qur'an. Most Christians will strongly disagree with that. So will most Catholics. Even any Atheist who reads both scriptures will disagree with that.

As for Sahih (100 % authentic by all schools of Islamic jurisprudence) Hadith, you are a Sunni Muslim I assume and you know very well that every single Hadith in both Muslim and Bukhari are authentic. Those quotes by Muhammad are 100% authentic and do not contradict the Qur'an. How do you know to pray 5 times a day, perform ablution and so on if not for Hadith? You can't just ignore Hadith that portray Muhammad as violent and intolerant and accept those that fit your pre-conceived version. Where is death for Apostasy under Sharia gotten from? You can't understand the Qur'an without the Hadith. You know that. I'm very surprised you will say that.

You also missed my point about Qur'an 5:32 and 33. 5:52 has nothing to do with Muslims and was burrowed from the Jewish Tanakh. The funny thing about that verse is that Allah references it as if any Jew believes the words in the Tanakh are inspired by God. That's like me quoting Harry Potter and presenting it as reality and not fiction.

Anyway, let's continue via personal message. I'm enjoying the convo, but I don't want to derail the thread, lol

P.S. and MOST importantly:

THIS is the context for Qur'an 9:29, not the erroneous, made up version you posted:

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.

[Dion 2,476]

I don't know how admins and mods see it, but as I see it, discussing the Qur'an is somewhat related to the conflict, even if it falls more into religious discussion than political one. I haven't had much contact with dogmas from Islamism so I find it really fascinating. I would like to keep reading the things you guys bring up if you don't mind. Even if there would be the need for continuing in another proper thread.

As long as it's done in a well-mannered and peaceful fashion I don't see why it should be a problem.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I'll keep it short and try to be as nice as possible . I'm not going to give a detailed response to that on this thread because I don't want to detract too much from what it's meant for. I took my time to read what you typed and it was what I expected. Of course as a Muslim I don't expect you to be publicly critical of Islam. You have chosen to come up with a very peaceful interpretation of these verses but the problem with your interpretation is that it's mostly based off of opinion and the wrong inference that you have to understand Arabic to understand the Qur'an. Most people in the world don't understand Arabic. The Qur'an claims to be a "clear" book. You don't have to understand Hebrew language or Koine Greek to be able to understand the verses of the Bible. This is the job of theologians who learn the original language for exegetical reasons. Most Muslims don't even speak Arabic, which is ironic to begin with.

A misconception you made. You don't have to go biblical "scholars" to understand scripture, instead, in Christianity, it is God who reveals scripture to us Christians, not Man. One of the MANY differences between the two religions.

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Most of the verses I gave were given in right context and that context was gotten straight from qtafsir.com, which is a wonderful site on Qur'anic commentary by Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Qur'anic commentators of all time. Now you can choose to believe in a more peaceful, tolerant version of Islam that suits you but that doesn't mean that that Islam is the legitimate one practiced by Muhammad and his early Muslims. There is a reason why many Muhujadeen are waging Jihad in many diverse countries (from China to Nigeria) around the world today. They are only following the example of the prophet of Islam.

And as to why Islam has many followers. It's an obvious fact that Muslim countries have a far higher birthrate than most other Christian majority countries. It's also a well known fact that Islam has a death penalty for Apostasy. Muhammad said "whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him".

Put yourself as a Non-Muslim for a second and think about that. How many people would have left Islam in the ME if they weren't threatened with death. Can you apostatize from Islam in Egypt without being in BIG trouble, worst case scenario, death? I have a Coptic Christian friend and he was talking to me on how horrible the "blasphemy" (blasphemy to speak bad about Muhammad? a man?) law is and how Coptic Christians are basically second class citizens.

Besides, it's an irrelevant point because Christianity has at least a billion more followers, but I doubt you believe Christianity is true and that Jesus is the Son of God.

As for Sahih (100 % authentic by all schools of Islamic jurisprudence) Hadith, you are a Sunni Muslim and you know very well that every single Hadith in both Muslim and Bukhari are authentic. Those quotes by Muhammad are 100% authentic and do not contradict the Qur'an. Just as the death for apostasy hadiths are used under Sharia. You can't understand the Qur'an without the Hadith. I'm very surprised you will say that.

Anyway, let's continue via personal message. I'm enjoying the convo.

Mate if you want to continue in PM then do so. But when you call me out in public, I am responsible to answer back in public.

1) Non of what I stated was based on opinions. I was transparent enough to put the verse and its interpretation from the most spread English translations of the meanings of Quran.

2) You have no clue what the early practices of Muslims are. You repeat basically what is being put by regular Islamophobes or specific historians you read for. Other historians have differnt opinions including Lesley Hazelton, who is a Jew and has wrote books about the life of Mohammed and the Sunni -Shiaa conflict.

3) I already said in my reply to hanrar, that radicals use these texts for their political agenda. I am well aware of that, I happen to be from the land where the Muslim Brotherhood was formed and from it all those other groups including Hamas. Not to mention my knowledge of how this works goes back to about 15 years ago. I have primary knowledge in that matter, not just readings.

4) Theologians study the languages of those scriptures in order to understand properly the texts. Otherwise it will be a language course. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic, but guess what, they read the Quran in Arabic and try to understand their meanings. The amount of Scholars who come from Asia and Africa to Al Azhar institution in Egypt is a lot. To demonstrate, you referred ti unbelievers so many times. the word in that text in Arabic is كافرون and the noun of it is كفر. Pronounced as Ka Fa Ra. Find the meaning of it if you can.

5) People who leave Islam get killed!? I don't think so. That Hadith again defies the Quran and nothing in the Quran states so. That does not happen. When it does, then it is exceptions and people are punished for. Executed to be precise. Even that Sudanese lady you converted to Christianity got freed because these actions are not accepted by Muslims. Whoever want to believe good for him, who ever doesn't want to good for him. Humans do not judge fellow humans on faith. It is for God and God only.

6) About Muslims increasing because of birthrate! Come on man. That is weak. If you have any clue about the lives people are live, you will just know that this is just absolute nonsense. The poverty, poor health system, lack of security do not lead to more breeding. Trust me. LOL. Plus it is also lame to think that a faith will spread that fast because Muslim men are more fertile or than Muslim females are just baby machines. Seriously man this point is making me laugh so hard.

7) The word Coptics means civilian in ancient Egyptian. Pahroah means king. So I am a Coptic.

8) Christians in Egypt ( Orthodox Christians) have been suffering for a while. But again that is a false accusation when you blame it on Muslims. Muslims too have been suffering. All Egyptians have been suffering. You go back and watch the feeds of the 25th of January revolution. When the Egyptians were fighting the police. See who was protecting the Muslims as they prayed and who was guarding the Churches. Don't do like the Muslim Brotherhood and mix religion with politics

9) After the second wave of revolution, 30th of July, when we ousted the Muslim Brotherhood president and party, Churches got burned by pro Morsi Supporters. Guess who was fighting those Muslim Brotherhood supporters and still are. Muslims and Christians.

10) Yes Christians are not allowed in Egypt to insult Mohammed or the Quran. They will go to Jail for that. Christians are not allowed to Insult Moses and Judaism or they will go to jail. Christians are not even allowed to insult Jesus or Christianity or they will will go to jail. Guess what, same applies to Muslims regarding their faith and other people's faith. So that racism card doesn't really work. We are to respect each others religion and people with in our faith. Again, whatever a person believes in is only between him and God. More Muslims have went to jail n Egypt for insulting religions than Christians by the way.

11) In you post you were amazed that people are not alot to "insult" Mohammed ( mind I tell you it is a totally non ethical point) and yet you want me to accept what Ibn Kathir says. Ibn Katheer is a scholar PERIOD. The four Imams are scholars PERIOD. We are not sheep or cattle. We have brains to think and analyze. This world is not static and as we progress as a human race, we take that knowledge we gain and apply it. And by the way the site you referred tp, it is a Salafi site. People whose minds are stuck back in time for over a thousand years ago.

12) As for what you have quoted from the Bibile, I am proud to say that I have studied Christianity in the Christian College I was in back in the U.S. I will refrain from going into comparative religion debate, since such topics are sensitive to members and the objective was not to debate religion and faith, but merely to answer a question about my faith.

13)You have to have better sources than the TV , social media and newspaper man. How know how people think in the west very well. I have brought up in a British system and lived in the U.S for a while. I have heard it all and debated it all.

14) The funniest thing is, that these exact debates I have with radicals and Islamophobes. The only difference is the Islamophobes try to use these verses to bash Islam and the radicals use the same verses to justify what they do. Buddy I have been studying Islam in a British system since I was 7 years old. I know what I am talking about very well.

Now feel free to continue this in the PM. But if you call me in public I have to respond in public.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I don't know how admins and mods see it, but as I see it, discussing the Qur'an is somewhat related to the conflict, even if it falls more into religious discussion than political one. I haven't had much contact with dogmas from Islamism so I find it really fascinating. I would like to keep reading the things you guys bring up if you don't mind. Even if there would be the need for continuing in another proper thread.

As long as it's done in a well-mannered and peaceful fashion I don't see why it should be a problem.

I have got no problem if the mods are cool with it and if it is in a respectful manner. However, this war is not a religious war or related to religion. It is purely political.

[Parky 739]

Hi Mohammed Seif do you know a Khalid Ali from Kuwait who is a Chelsea fan by chance ? He plays keeper as well.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Hi Mohammed Seif do you know a Khalid Ali from Kuwait who is a Chelsea fan by chance ? He plays keeper as well.

No mate not really. Chelsea fans are few in Kuwait. Most people are either Madrid fans or Barca fans

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

@Mohammed Seif

You're seriously going to discount the command of death for apostates because it allegedly "contradicts" the Qur'an? Wow, that's a first for me. Because this is not practiced in Muslim countries, especially the ones under Sharia constitution? Like Saudi Arabia? Maybe they are clueless about Islam? The evidence is in the world around us not in opinion. Notice how you ignore the Tafsir from Ibn Kathir I posted as words of a man, lol. No serious Islamic scholar will take your views on Islam seriously and you know it.

You are free to believe in this watered down, westernized version of Islam, I like it very much but don't expect others to believe it.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

@Mohammed Seif

You're seriously going to discount the command of death for apostates because it allegedly "contradicts" the Qur'an? Wow, that's a first for me. Because this is not practiced in Muslim countries, especially the ones under Sharia constitution? Like Saudi Arabia? Maybe they are clueless about Islam. The evidence is in the world around us not in opinion.

You are free to believe in this watered down, westernized version of Islam, but don't expect others to believe it.

LOL. Don't be amazed, apostates is not the Quran. Yeah it is a real shock to you since you just assumed that based on the media . Here is a teaser, Sharia law does not exist. Fact by the way.

[Dion 2,476]

I have got no problem if the mods are cool with it and if it is in a respectful manner. However, this war is not a religious war or related to religion. It is purely political.

I don't think we can fully separate religion from the conflict even when it feels everything is mostly or only political. I say this because in societies marked by a strong religious belief those dogmas will usually leave their mark and influence on how that one society will think and act. Even when it is not directly related it still plays its part.

If I was discussing euthanasia in Brazil (which is considered an ethical discussion btw), for instance, it would help understanding the people who are against it if I understood that catholicism has helped molding the society into being against the ending of one's own life because it is condemned by the holy scriptures. Even if catholicism isn't brought up as a reason or even if it's not a dispute between government and church or something like that, the religious belief has played its part. Contextualization is an important step to understanding the feelings of another people. I believe it is related.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

LOL. Don't be amazed, apostates is not the Quran. Yeah it is a real shock to you since you just assumed that based on the media . Here is a teaser, Sharia law does not exist. Fact by the way.

• Never said it was. You must have misunderstood me. It's in both Sahih Hadith though and it's 100% percent authentic in all schools of Islamic Jurisprudence. You just choose to ignore it, but your views will be considered heretical.
• I actually agree with you. It hasn't existed since the fall of the Ottomman empire in the early 1900's. What is practiced in Saudi Arabia is only a partial version of Sharia.