🇩🇪 Kai Havertz

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Hmmm. 

I checked some of his stats from last season. It seems that he played majority of the latter part of the last season as a RW or a false 9 which might have led to the number of goals and assists. So it's not like he is playing a position unknown to him. 

Also, people are not "impatient". If that was true, Werner would have been getting some stick too. People are willing to give him time because they actually see some genuine quality in him. Werner's movement is great, something which will be used as a weapon more and more when our front 4 and mid play with each other. Plus he can build and improve his game around that aspect.

The issue with Kai is, what am I supposed to impressed by with him? He can't even hold on to the ball. That's got nothing to do with being a slow starter or a fast starter. That's the most basic and obvious skill any footballer would have. If a footballer has issues with shielding and holding onto the ball, that's a sign for worry, all the goals and assists is way down the priority.

Well if I remember right you were not happy your favorite NBA team signing one of the best if not best basketball player in world so idk what to say.

[Rekin 835]

Havertz will never shine against decent opposition in the setup we have now, and it does not only apply to him.

Was Werner good today? How about Pulisic, Mount or Abraham? 

There is no link at all between defence and attack. Almost every single time ball to Havertz or other attacking players come via hoofed balls, or a pass that instantly invites pressure. 

We play way, way too slowly, leading to every pass and action being so predictable that the opposition can react before it happens. How often do you see us break through the middle via Kante or Jorginho? They are much happier passing back to their closest CB/FB. The only way to progress centrally is if Havertz/Werner/Pulisic breaks away from their defender and runs towards the middle to receive the ball, but then they are instantly swarmed and without any space to run into.
It is so frustrating, as it has been this way since the pre-season. No central presence, slow and safe passing combined with wingers forced to drop deep to receive the ball with their backs to the goal. 

Havertz might adapt over time, but I worry more about someone like Werner. He is excellent when he can use his speed whether directly or indirectly. In a slow system like ours he will get next to nothing to work with.

I really fear that Frank is not ready at all to coach a big team. It sucks because he is a legend, but this kind of bias should not direct footballing decisions.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

4 hours ago, Special Juan said:

Looks half a sleep and coasting through games

Think he is a bit of a very languid looking player obviously not an excuse but he isn’t necessarily a busy body or a dog for instance. Still think he needs a few more games, he could have done more but the structure isn’t great and the attacking game plan isn't ideal either. 

[whats happening 1,621]

im not worried about him at all.

[communicate 2,703]

10 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I don't know if Lampards tactics is hindering him or hes just poor.

Ive not been too impressed except against that championship side we won. 

Let's hope he adapts to the league and improves 

He has been ok. The interesting part, you have so many people defended him. If Barkley played like Havertz, he will get slaughtered. 

IMO Right now if you want to get the best out of him, no 10 behind a tammy is his best position. 

[Puliiszola 519]

5 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Well if I remember right you were not happy your favorite NBA team signing one of the best if not best basketball player in world so idk what to say.

What has that got to do with this? 😂😂

And while we are at it, did not PG choke in the finals, the way he AKWAYS does. Shooting 23% from the field, leading to one of the worst capitulations in the play-offs. As far as predictions and worries were concerned, that was spot on.

And the fact, that you can't provide me with an aspect of KAI's game makes me worry more. 

I have nothing against the Kai (unlike a lot of people who have it against some of our own, namely mount), I am a Chelsea fan, and would love for him to succeed and be the player everyone thinks he is. But given the hype, given the fee, there was an expectation and Kai has been far below that. He needs time to improve, rather FL has made him the focal point of our attack and changed the formation to make even the midfield worse. It's a recipe for disaster for the club and the player 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

24 minutes ago, communicate said:

He has been ok. The interesting part, you have so many people defended him. If Barkley played like Havertz, he will get slaughtered. 

IMO Right now if you want to get the best out of him, no 10 behind a tammy is his best position. 

I kind of realize that Havertz may be a team player and not individualistic. Pulisic last season could play Lampards individualistic role easily because he could hold onto the ball and dribble easily.

Havertz on the other hand needs the style of play to be right, he needs forward runners, he needs one twos and triangle setups on the pitch which Lampard doesn't coach the team on right now.

I would love to see him play with Gilmour and Kovacic at the base of our midfield. Both can dribble under pressure and Gilmour loves to give forward passes to runners. That will allow Havertz to make more runs off the ball like he did in Germany since Kante cant seem to complete a forward pass and Jorginho controls tempo by passing backwards to defenders, leaving our full backs as the only way Chelsea advance the ball forward from the back.

[communicate 2,703]

10 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I kind of realize that Havertz may be a team player and not individualistic. Pulisic last season could play Lampards individualistic role easily because he could hold onto the ball and dribble easily.

Havertz on the other hand needs the style of play to be right, he needs forward runners, he needs one twos and triangle setups on the pitch which Lampard doesn't coach the team on right now.

I would love to see him play with Gilmour and Kovacic at the base of our midfield. Both can dribble under pressure and Gilmour loves to give forward passes to runners. That will allow Havertz to make more runs off the ball like he did in Germany since Kante cant seem to complete a forward pass and Jorginho controls tempo by passing backwards to defenders, leaving our full backs as the only way Chelsea advance the ball forward from the back.

It is always good to have midfield who can create but it is all about balance. 

What you said essentially is to let Havertz play a free role, where he can float around and let our midfield two dictate everything. That is good but what do we give up, no kante mean no ball winner. Can we press? Nope. Can we keep the ball? Nope. So, we got better versions of Havertz but we will get far worse defensively, that is imo not a good thing. Btw he can certainly help with those two thing. Because right now he is not a good presser and he does not keep the ball well. 

In my opinion, right now Havertz is a good player with massive potential but still just a good player. The team currently being constructed probably not most ideal to get the best out of him but at the same time Havertz is not good enough player just yet to be the focal guy for title winning team. 

 

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

I know different type of player and different position but he gives me Ronaldo vibes. I will explain...

Ronaldo in early days for Sporting and United was very attractive player with all the dribbling and skills but later he kind of dropped all of that to become more of a finisher and executor. And his numbers increased drastically!

Neymar is better passer and has better dribbling than CR but no one would rather take him.

Kai still needs to find himself. Ronaldo in his first 3 PL seasons scored 4,5 and 9 goals.

Look at the goals Kai scored, not really midfielder type of goals he is often most attacking player on the pitch. For me he is more of a executor than creator. And this is where I see him in the future. I am not saying he should play striker or winger he can play AM and still be this player. So he needs to focus on this like Ronaldo in 2007 and see how can he improves his game that his numbers go crazy. I think he has this ability.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

I know different type of player and different position but he gives me Ronaldo vibes. I will explain...

Ronaldo in early days for Sporting and United was very attractive player with all the dribbling and skills but later he kind of dropped all of that to become more of a finisher and executor. And his numbers increased drastically!

Neymar is better passer and has better dribbling than CR but no one would rather take him.

Kai still needs to find himself. Ronaldo in his first 3 PL seasons scored 4,5 and 9 goals.

Look at the goals Kai scored, not really midfielder type of goals he is often most attacking player on the pitch. For me he is more of a executor than creator. And this is where I see him in the future. I am not saying he should play striker or winger he can play AM and still be this player. So he needs to focus on this like Ronaldo in 2007 and see how can he improves his game that his numbers go crazy. I think he has this ability.

Kai, Puli and Timo are all more inlcined to be finishers than creators. Only Ziyech is a true creater within our attackers. That is the problem. Given our cms create zilch we need a lot of creativity to come from the fullbacks which makes us so vulnerable. On the other hand if the fullbacks stay back we are toothless offensively. I really would prefer Kai to become a complete and pure no. 10 like Ronaldinho or Zidane. He surely has the tools. When he played for Bayer tho he was most prolific as a LW bc he would play off the ball more and pop up in dangerous positions. Chelsea fans have not really warmed to that idea either, he lacks a bit of zappiness to be a winger despite his pace. The thing I want from him frist and foremost is to bea bit more snappy, play with a bit more vigor. More aggressive on and off the ball. take more chances, try shooting more often. IIRC vs Sevilla and Utd he did not try a single shot on target apart from that one poor header. He is clinical usually as soon as he pulls the trigger but he needs to pull it way more often. I dont want him to become a player like Özil who have all the skill in the world but shit it away by trying to look to elegant and not putting up with the grit and vigor that makes you a great footballer.

[bigbluewillie 1,930]

 

On 24/10/2020 at 7:34 PM, Puliiszola said:

100m for someone who can't fucking shield the ball and made luke fucking Shaw look world class. 

Unbelievable. I am sorry, but I don't see the hype around him AT ALL. His basics are poor, has no idea how to shield a ball, can't use his 6 foot + frame. I am sorry, that's unacceptable. 

Imo, we have bought a player for 100m who is hardly looking as an upgrade on Mason mount who we love to hate for some reason that is beyond me. 

I hope he proves me wrong, but he has miles to go and improve. And if FL keeps him as a focal point for our attack, we are going to suffer.

So let me get this right, you're saying that because Havertz hasn't hit the ground running, do what?

It might take a season for him to settle in, are you prepared to give him time? and I don't mean just til next week, it\s going to take time for the whole team to gel.

 Like this

[Puliiszola 519]

27 minutes ago, bigbluewillie said:

 

So let me get this right, you're saying that because Havertz hasn't hit the ground running, do what?

It might take a season for him to settle in, are you prepared to give him time? and I don't mean just til next week, it\s going to take time for the whole team to gel.

 Like this

Then we should not be making him the focal point of our attack and changing the mid to a formation which clearly does not suit them. It's a recipe for disaster.

Also, it's not about hitting the ground. Werner has not done that too. But you can see his traits and why he will be a success. Kai can't do the basics right. That has got nothing to do with team gelling and time.

[Blues11 213]

9 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

Kai, Puli and Timo are all more inlcined to be finishers than creators. Only Ziyech is a true creater within our attackers. That is the problem. Given our cms create zilch we need a lot of creativity to come from the fullbacks which makes us so vulnerable. On the other hand if the fullbacks stay back we are toothless offensively. I really would prefer Kai to become a complete and pure no. 10 like Ronaldinho or Zidane. He surely has the tools. When he played for Bayer tho he was most prolific as a LW bc he would play off the ball more and pop up in dangerous positions. Chelsea fans have not really warmed to that idea either, he lacks a bit of zappiness to be a winger despite his pace. The thing I want from him frist and foremost is to bea bit more snappy, play with a bit more vigor. More aggressive on and off the ball. take more chances, try shooting more often. IIRC vs Sevilla and Utd he did not try a single shot on target apart from that one poor header. He is clinical usually as soon as he pulls the trigger but he needs to pull it way more often. I dont want him to become a player like Özil who have all the skill in the world but shit it away by trying to look to elegant and not putting up with the grit and vigor that makes you a great footballer.

I agree with this 100%. For what I've seen so far from the three is obviously a lack of chemistry for the young season but not enough effort to get others involved. Werner doesn't seem like he'll ever pass inside or close to the box unless he truly has to. I know we signed him to score goals but better hold up play is needed for the way our team is setup under Frank. The Prem isn't as forgiving on speedy strikers so he'll need to adjust and be more physical at times. Kai needs to make more of an effort to get into dangerous positions by making runs and stretching the field for others instead of just doing so when he thinks he has a scoring opportunity. Puli I think is trying to take that next step in his career and score more goals but he needs to kind of slow it down a bit and let the game come to him, I think he's trying too hard to make that leap into stardom. There's no reason why Puli and Werner shouldn't be destroying teams on the counter. You also mentioned Ziyech which I think makes a lot of sense, hopefully he can bring the attack together by being that playmaker.  I believe they'll figure it out but the faster these players are willing to make sacrifices and make the pass when necessary the better we'll be. 

[The Skipper 20,609]

On 25/10/2020 at 10:05 PM, Magic Lamps said:

Kai, Puli and Timo are all more inlcined to be finishers than creators. Only Ziyech is a true creater within our attackers. That is the problem. Given our cms create zilch we need a lot of creativity to come from the fullbacks which makes us so vulnerable. On the other hand if the fullbacks stay back we are toothless offensively. I really would prefer Kai to become a complete and pure no. 10 like Ronaldinho or Zidane. He surely has the tools. When he played for Bayer tho he was most prolific as a LW bc he would play off the ball more and pop up in dangerous positions. Chelsea fans have not really warmed to that idea either, he lacks a bit of zappiness to be a winger despite his pace. The thing I want from him frist and foremost is to bea bit more snappy, play with a bit more vigor. More aggressive on and off the ball. take more chances, try shooting more often. IIRC vs Sevilla and Utd he did not try a single shot on target apart from that one poor header. He is clinical usually as soon as he pulls the trigger but he needs to pull it way more often. I dont want him to become a player like Özil who have all the skill in the world but shit it away by trying to look to elegant and not putting up with the grit and vigor that makes you a great footballer.

Would like to see how well a Kante, Mount & Havertz midfield would operate. 

[Superblue 6,372]

6 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

Would like to see how well a Kante, Mount & Havertz midfield would operate. 

In this scenario would you envisage Kante as a pure holding midfielder with Mount and Havertz further forward (like a 4-3-3), or Mount alongside Kante, with Havertz in front of them (like a 4-2-3-1)?

[The Skipper 20,609]

16 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

In this scenario would you envisage Kante as a pure holding midfielder with Mount and Havertz further forward (like a 4-3-3), or Mount alongside Kante, with Havertz in front of them (like a 4-2-3-1)?

I'd like to see either scenario tbh and see what works. One of Mason's best attributes is quickly breaking the lines between midfield and attack with some quick passes into the feet of the attackers. We should be utilising this a lot more. I want Mason to be more like a Modric type player rather than whatever Frank is trying him as atm. 

Kanté in a 433 as the holding player - does he have the patience and discipline for this? For this reason maybe a 4231 might work better. Since his legs are going a bit, I'd like to see this 433 where we see him attack and defend horizontal spaces rather than the whole pitch/vertical spaces. Mount can lead the press from CM and join in on some attacks, but he'd have to be very disciplined. 

I'm surprised Frank hasn't tried it yet since he likes to play Mason in a lot of unorthodox positions. 

[Superblue 6,372]

5 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

I'd like to see either scenario tbh and see what works. One of Mason's best attributes is quickly breaking the lines between midfield and attack with some quick passes into the feet of the attackers. We should be utilising this a lot more. I want Mason to be more like a Modric type player rather than whatever Frank is trying him as atm. 

Kanté in a 433 as the holding player - does he have the patience and discipline for this? For this reason maybe a 4231 might work better. Since his legs are going a bit, I'd like to see this 433 where we see him attack and defend horizontal spaces rather than the whole pitch/vertical spaces. Mount can lead the press from CM and join in on some attacks, but he'd have to be very disciplined. 

I'm surprised Frank hasn't tried it yet since he likes to play Mason in a lot of unorthodox positions. 

I would agree that is the position that I think would be best suited long term to Mount. He's still young and has plenty of time to develop but from what I've seen of his characteristics and qualities, he would be better suited to playing a little deeper than higher up the pitch. I agree with the assessment of Mount's passing and tempo in there probably working to our benefit. I think then on the flipside we have Kovacic who I guess is the alternative to Mount in such formations who also has the ability to break lines but by dribbling with the ball more than through passing so there are a couple of options then to suit the opposition.

I think for it to work however at its most effective, we need a natural holding midfielder in that position (whether it's a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1), of which Kante is not. If Silva is managed properly and doesn't show any deterioration as the season progresses, I actually think a holding midfielder is a bigger need than a centre back. Either way though, those two positions are what we have to get right over the next year. It is the only thing holding us back from having a well balanced squad capable of competing for the top trophies.

[The Skipper 20,609]

40 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I would agree that is the position that I think would be best suited long term to Mount. He's still young and has plenty of time to develop but from what I've seen of his characteristics and qualities, he would be better suited to playing a little deeper than higher up the pitch. I agree with the assessment of Mount's passing and tempo in there probably working to our benefit. I think then on the flipside we have Kovacic who I guess is the alternative to Mount in such formations who also has the ability to break lines but by dribbling with the ball more than through passing so there are a couple of options then to suit the opposition.

I think for it to work however at its most effective, we need a natural holding midfielder in that position (whether it's a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1), of which Kante is not. If Silva is managed properly and doesn't show any deterioration as the season progresses, I actually think a holding midfielder is a bigger need than a centre back. Either way though, those two positions are what we have to get right over the next year. It is the only thing holding us back from having a well balanced squad capable of competing for the top trophies.

Funnily enough, of course Kanté is still a huge member of the squad, but for the type of football we seem to be wanting to play, Kanté doesn't really make too much sense. The base seems to be a natural holding DM, a connector, and then a 10. Kanté doesn't really fit any of these. 

In hindsight we should've kept Ampadu, think he's the perfect profile for the type of player we need. Shame really. Also, should be interesting to see how Gilmour fits in.

Ideally, I'd love to have something like this as midfield options next season: 

Ampadu, Kanté, natural DM, Mount, Gilmour, Havertz. Maybe Rice or Camavinga (v. unlikely but Cech has links at Rennes) as the natural DM. This gives us options and all sorts of types of midfielders that would work with a lot of different types of game plans. Like you said, midfield balance will probably be the Achilles heel for us this season. 

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

I am for this. Not only 100% conversion rate, but it is always good that your number one star in future in terms of marketing have better goalscoring record.

[Milan 17,959]

Apart from the interesting 10 minutes in the second half and losing 2 or 3 balls, he was really really good today. Getting better and better with every game and getting used to the English game,