Mikel John Obi

[bleed_blue 136]

Look at what games Luiz started in the pivot. You yourself (I think) posted them a few pages back. They're all relatively easy and you'd expect us to win the vast majority of them even with a few first team players missing.

Why are you shifting goalposts now from mikel to luiz?

Once again, since it has to be told to you a 100 times for your brain to process, here is the gist of it:

Luiz started a lot of his games in midfield vs non-top level teams. Chelsea did well in those games => Luiz was an asset in midfield whenever given an opportunity, however he is yet to be tested vs top teams. This does not give anybody the liberty to say that "luiz in midfield experiment failed". Anybody saying that needs to learn things about logical conclusions and interpretations.

one more point,

the 19 games that Mikel started for us in PL last season, the average league position of our opposition was 10.3

the 19 games that Mikel did not start for us in PL last season, the average league position of our opposition was 11.5

That is not a very big difference in difficulty level of opposition.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Why are you shifting goalposts now from mikel to luiz?

Because that's what he does. Luiz is a defender who was deployed in midfield because he gave far more effort than Mikel was capable of. He played about a dozen games there, lacked the fitness to do so for 90 minutes so why not compare him to Mikel?

Choulo slagged off Van Ginkel after less than 100 minutes of pre-season friendlies purely to defend Mikel. I simply don't get this mentality. If Mikel was even close to being the player that some people on here describe him as then the supporters would love him, but there's this amazing thing that happens right now. You can go up to any Chelsea supporter, say Mikel's shit and they'll agree 99% of the time. Happened to me in the pub on Friday and it made me chortle.

[bleed_blue 136]

Because that's what he does. Luiz is a defender who was deployed in midfield because he gave far more effort than Mikel was capable of. He played about a dozen games there, lacked the fitness to do so for 90 minutes so why not compare him to Mikel?

Choulo slagged off Van Ginkel after less than 100 minutes of pre-season friendlies purely to defend Mikel. I simply don't get this mentality. If Mikel was even close to being the player that some people on here describe him as then the supporters would love him, but there's this amazing thing that happens right now. You can go up to any Chelsea supporter, say Mikel's shit and they'll agree 99% of the time. Happened to me in the pub on Friday and it made me chortle.

more on Luiz.

With Luiz in midfield, we beat Southampton 5-1 in FA cup. That incidentally was our only win over the saints in 3 meetings last season. The other two games where Luiz did not play in midfield, we lost 1 and drew the other.

Our only win against Swansea came when Luiz played in midfield in the PL home game.

Choulo19, you need to work harder for your counter examples.

[meetdoscar 335]

Mikel is that type of player mou respects when he says he likes the sort of player that plays to his limit. Mikel has placed his team before and above his initial career as a No. 10 by playing DM for chelsea to the best of his ability. For me that shows how great a player he is and his trophies with chelsea speaks for itself. Mikel is also obviously one of the more technically gifted players in our team in terms of possession and holding the ball. If what mikel does is so easy why don't we play lampard or ramires out of position as DM and see how it goes. If i where him having won all with chelsea I'd move elsewhere to play No. 10 or CAM as am sure he will shine as he does for nigeria But as a chelsea fan I hope we do not make the same mistake madrid did with makelele.

[bushman 2,043]

Some say, Chelsea are playing Mikel in the wrong position. He should play as AM like he does for Nigeria.

Well, it makes me laugh when I read, Hazard, Mata & Oscar. That says it all.

If Mikel stays, he competes against Frank, Van Ginkel & Essien. Let´s be honest here. How can he succeed here ?

Mikel can not even hit the net, never mind scoring a goal. He has won with Chelsea, let him go now.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Because that's what he does. Luiz is a defender who was deployed in midfield because he gave far more effort than Mikel was capable of. He played about a dozen games there, lacked the fitness to do so for 90 minutes so why not compare him to Mikel?

Choulo slagged off Van Ginkel after less than 100 minutes of pre-season friendlies purely to defend Mikel. I simply don't get this mentality. If Mikel was even close to being the player that some people on here describe him as then the supporters would love him, but there's this amazing thing that happens right now. You can go up to any Chelsea supporter, say Mikel's shit and they'll agree 99% of the time. Happened to me in the pub on Friday and it made me chortle.

I'm not the one who brought Luiz in the comparison, I was replying to his comparison of our win percentage with Mikel in midfield as opposed to Luiz there a few pages back (or in the Luiz thread, I can't remember). On any account, the point I was making is not particularly about Mikel but that you can't compare the team's results only with and without a player because there are countless other variables.

And I did not "slag off" Van Ginkel. I criticized his passing in the first two games then praised his passing and overall performance in the third game, and it's certainly not because of Mikel who plays in a different position. The mentality that I don't get is you trying to take what I say out of context instead of answering the actual argument. It's like you think you're running against me for president or something You do realize that this is just a forum and that neither of us will win anything, right?

more on Luiz.

With Luiz in midfield, we beat Southampton 5-1 in FA cup. That incidentally was our only win over the saints in 3 meetings last season. The other two games where Luiz did not play in midfield, we lost 1 and drew the other.

Our only win against Swansea came when Luiz played in midfield in the PL home game.

Choulo19, you need to work harder for your counter examples.

Again, you're making the exact same logical fallacy again. You can't compare the result alone with and without a certain player because there are thousands of other variables involved.

[bleed_blue 136]

I'm not the one who brought Luiz in the comparison, I was replying to his comparison of our win percentage with Mikel in midfield as opposed to Luiz there a few pages back (or in the Luiz thread, I can't remember). On any account, the point I was making is not particularly about Mikel but that you can't compare the team's results only with and without a player because there are countless other variables.

And I did not "slag off" Van Ginkel. I criticized his passing in the first two games then praised his passing and overall performance in the third game, and it's certainly not because of Mikel who plays in a different position. The mentality that I don't get is you trying to take what I say out of context instead of answering the actual argument. It's like you think you're running against me for president or something You do realize that this is just a forum and that neither of us will win anything, right?

Again, you're making the exact same logical fallacy again. You can't compare the result alone with and without a certain player because there are thousands of other variables involved.

How slow are you??

You put forward the statement that " the games we won with Luiz in DM, we would have won them otherwise".

I gave you counter examples.

Reg. your other point, Comparison is useful when made between two sets with substantial and comparable data points.

Like 32 games vs 37 games

Not Messi starting 55 games vs missing 5 games

Regular GK starting 55 games vs 2nd GK starting 3 games

@meetdoscar: That claude makelele defense is getting old. Reg. your statement that why dont we play ramires n lampard out of position, we did that last year and the results were much better. Keep up.

[The Skipper 20,609]

I personally think Jose has faith in him, and that's why we're probably not buying another midfielder.

He certainly has the ability, so it'll be interesting to see how he plays under Mourinho. I think he can be a beast under the right circumstances and given the right role.

[bleed_blue 136]

I personally think Jose has faith in him, and that's why we're probably not buying another midfielder.

He certainly has the ability, so it'll be interesting to see how he plays under Mourinho. I think he can be a beast under the right circumstances and given the right role.

A Beast on the bench it is then.

[bushman 2,043]

A Beast on the bench it is then.

Passing water too.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

How slow are you?? You put forward the statement that " the games we won with Luiz in DM, we would have won them otherwise". I gave you counter examples.

And that statement is still true because the games in the league are completely different than the one in the cup. We didn't draw the games in the league because of Mikel just like we did not win the game in the cup solely because of Luiz. I would still expect us to win all those games with both Mikel or Luiz.

Comparison is useful when made between two sets with substantial and comparable data points.

No, I don't think it is. Because this is football.There are countless variables that change from game to game besides players like tactics and player roles, physical and mental readiness of the players, the crowd, the ref and even sheer luck at times. Stats are good to back up a point you made by observation, but they can't your whole argument especially if they're as vague and frankly quite useless as win percentage with and without a player.

[Azpinator 2,325]

I can't remember any top club to even inquire about him in the last couple of years, which tells you how good of a player he is... unless you consider Galatasaray a top club.

[ANDRECHO 432]

Mikel is a good player , but he is not Top comparing with , De Rossi,Xavi Alonso,Yaya toure, Busquets, Schweinsteiger ...

[bleed_blue 136]

And that statement is still true because the games in the league are completely different than the one in the cup. We didn't draw the games in the league because of Mikel just like we did not win the game in the cup solely because of Luiz. I would still expect us to win all those games with both Mikel or Luiz.

No, I don't think it is. Because this is football.There are countless variables that change from game to game besides players like tactics and player roles, physical and mental readiness of the players, the crowd, the ref and even sheer luck at times. Stats are good to back up a point you made by observation, but they can't your whole argument especially if they're as vague and frankly quite useless as win percentage with and without a player.

"I would still expect us to win those games with Luiz or Mikel"

Unfortunately, football does not work on how YOU think. It is played on the field and the results of last year seem to be exactly opposite to how YOU think.

These variables you listed down, they average up over a period and a season is long enough.

You come up with arguments like

1. "Mikel is good at defending the back four"

I disagree and back my statement with the fact that we conceded 1.53 goals per game when Mikel started last season vs 0.89 goals when he did not start. Surely, I have a stronger argument.

2. "Mikel lets our attacking players to concentrate on their strengths and hence benefits the team"

I disagree and back my statement with the fact that we scored 1.6 goals per game when Mikel started last season vs 2.51 goals per game when he did not start.

Surely, I have a stronger argument

3. "Mikel played games against tougher opposition "

I tell you that the average league standings of our PL opponents when Mikel started was 10.3 vs 11.5 when he did not start. That is not a big enough difference surely?

4. "Mikel has superior positional sense, is strong physically"

That is the most subjective thing you can say about a player. Even if I were to agree with you (which I don't), good positional awareness, physical strengths are not the end game unless you use those qualities to add to your performance on the pitch.

Considering the fact that

Chelsea win more games when mikel does not start.

Chelsea lose fewer games when mikel does not start

Chelsea score more goals when mikel does not start

Chelsea concede fewer goals when mikel does not start

He sure as hell is not using those qualities which you think he has.

You guys have not even a single solid reason, all hot air.

[meetdoscar 335]

Whow.....so much luv to a player must be personal or may be some just know more than the best coaches in the world.

[bleed_blue 136]

Whow.....so much luv to a player must be personal or may be some just know more than the best coaches in the world.

Do you have memory issues?

That coaches argument was countered a few pages back.

[meetdoscar 335]

.

[meetdoscar 335]

Do you have memory issues?

That coaches argument was countered a few pages back.

Its you again.....you must be my shadow

[bushman 2,043]

Some say, Mikel is valuable, some can not see him hitting the net though.

Certainly, if I remember correctly he even caused Chelsea to pay over 10- 12m to Manures. He signed for United, too.

I believe, his price was 16m, then. Now, I do not mean to be disrespectful of him, but he is not worth it. The kid Van Ginkel went for 8m & I bet he will be better. Let´s see what Mikel does in America, soon. I still prefer to see him go & allocate the money for better DM.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

"I would still expect us to win those games with Luiz or Mikel"

Unfortunately, football does not work on how YOU think. It is played on the field and the results of last year seem to be exactly opposite to how YOU think.

These variables you listed down, they average up over a period and a season is long enough.

You come up with arguments like

1. "Mikel is good at defending the back four"

I disagree and back my statement with the fact that we conceded 1.53 goals per game when Mikel started last season vs 0.89 goals when he did not start. Surely, I have a stronger argument.

2. "Mikel lets our attacking players to concentrate on their strengths and hence benefits the team"

I disagree and back my statement with the fact that we scored 1.6 goals per game when Mikel started last season vs 2.51 goals per game when he did not start.

Surely, I have a stronger argument

3. "Mikel played games against tougher opposition "

I tell you that the average league standings of our PL opponents when Mikel started was 10.3 vs 11.5 when he did not start. That is not a big enough difference surely?

4. "Mikel has superior positional sense, is strong physically"

That is the most subjective thing you can say about a player. Even if I were to agree with you (which I don't), good positional awareness, physical strengths are not the end game unless you use those qualities to add to your performance on the pitch.

Considering the fact that

Chelsea win more games when mikel does not start.

Chelsea lose fewer games when mikel does not start

Chelsea score more goals when mikel does not start

Chelsea concede fewer goals when mikel does not start

He sure as hell is not using those qualities which you think he has.

You guys have not even a single solid reason, all hot air.

And my counter argument to that is this: http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/13977-john-mikel-obi-the-keystone/

We've been through all the arguments countless times. You predicted that Jose will sell Mikel and now you predict that he will be benched. I think he will be a key player for the team just like he's been for the past four seasons. Let's wait and see if football works like I think it does.