Jorginho

[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

You cannot just say Jorginho is limited because he doesn't play that pass every week. We don't play Southampton who like to play and have a very high line (look at the Spurs game also) with plenty of space in behind every week. We are not Bournemouth or whatever, teams sit off us, teams will play with 10 men behind the ball against us and not give guys like Werner the space to run into. 

No, Saturday’s game wasn’t the main reason why I said Jorginho is a limited player. It just merely emphasized it. Go back and read some of the old posts in this thread and there are lots of reason why he is a limited player.

Yeah, we don’t play Southampton and a high defensive line every week but let’s not act as if there aren’t moments in games where some teams, who tend to sit deep, open themselves up because they try to attack or chase the game and we fail to exploit it.

And also, take the recent Liverpool game for example. They played a high line against us but how often did we look to play balls in behind their defence, especially when we had 11 men? 

12 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

"It is not suddenly like attacking players suddenly stopped making runs of the ball." Why do you think it went so stale under Sarri? Cesc had mentioned something in an interview as well I am sure, trying to find it. After the first 4 months it seemed to be a lot more rigid and seemed to be as if he didn't want to let the most advanced midfielder get into goalscoring positions for stability in midfield then he decided to let RLC play and he seemed to provide a bit of drive in the midfield as well as goals. Pedro who was really the only guy who would get into the box in the same way Pulisic was doing so for us last season also. Willian and Eden would probably come shorter more and get the ball to feet. When you don't have anyone really moving off the ball or getting beyond players its easy to criticize players for playing sideways and backwards but that's unfortunately something we had to deal with. And still have to deal with.

Nikki literally posted a video of Jorginho playing those passes under Sarri, even after the first 4 months or whatever it was. If he could do it then, why can’t he do it now? 

14 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

The Fabregas and Costa combination was very good aye but Costa is slightly different to Timo Werner. And Cesc is slightly different to Jorginho so its not as simple as saying okay it should work. Plus the ones I am thinking of where Cesc would find Costa with those long passes - Arsenal, space in behind. Man City, space in behind. Watford one comes from us defending a corner so the space is in behind, Everton, again, space in behind. Same with his assist for Eden v Southampton, same with his assist for Pedro v Newcastle. Same for assist for Pedro v Hull. The a recurring theme here isn't to do with who the passer is or who it isn't, its to do with the movement or the fact there is some space to exploit. Okay Fabregas probably has better quality than Jorginho with those passes or is more likely to make a difference with that sort of passes but still you going to tell me we create the opportunity for these sort of passes every week? Because we don't or we wouldn't be complaining that watching our attacking play has been very uncoordinated and relying on the actual individuals as opposed to coordinated movements or patterns like we had with Jose in transitions or Conte at times since maybe the turn of the year. 

Another key difference between Fabregas and Jorginho is that Fabregas would always look to pass forward, always look to create chances for someone else. Jorginho? He would often play it safe by passing it sideways and backwards, which is frustrating and makes it all the more frustrating when you see that video of him playing forward passes.

Coordinated movements under Mourinho in transitions? We barely scored any goals from counter attacks because we always fucked it up and let’s not pretend like Mourinho coached any attacking patterns from open play either. He may have ensured the team had structure but he always relied on individuals to do their thing in attacks.

18 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Jorginho may have his limitations but I don't know what more people are expecting from him. He was a vital component in our best period last season under Frank. He has been good so far this season. I don't know what else he has to do? 3 assists a game? 5 goals a game? 100 key passes a game? The expectations are getting a bit ridiculous. 

Expectations are getting a bit ridiculous? I don’t think there is anything to expect from a limited player but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating when you see a player being so limited and doesn’t do much out there. 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

No, Saturday’s game wasn’t the main reason why I said Jorginho is a limited player. It just merely emphasized it. Go back and read some of the old posts in this thread and there are lots of reason why he is a limited player.

Yeah, we don’t play Southampton and a high defensive line every week but let’s not act as if there aren’t moments in games where some teams, who tend to sit deep, open themselves up because they try to attack or chase the game and we fail to exploit it.

And also, take the recent Liverpool game for example. They played a high line against us but how often did we look to play balls in behind their defence, especially when we had 11 men? 

Nikki literally posted a video of Jorginho playing those passes under Sarri, even after the first 4 months or whatever it was. If he could do it then, why can’t he do it now? 

Another key difference between Fabregas and Jorginho is that Fabregas would always look to pass forward, always look to create chances for someone else. Jorginho? He would often play it safe by passing it sideways and backwards, which is frustrating and makes it all the more frustrating when you see that video of him playing forward passes.

Coordinated movements under Mourinho in transitions? We barely scored any goals from counter attacks because we always fucked it up and let’s not pretend like Mourinho coached any attacking patterns from open play either. He may have ensured the team had structure but he always relied on individuals to do their thing in attacks.

Expectations are getting a bit ridiculous? I don’t think there is anything to expect from a limited player but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating when you see a player being so limited and doesn’t do much out there. 

Yes he is limited in some ways but every player has limitations. And teams have limitations which affect players of different types with different strengths and weaknesses. 

Yes teams will come and attack us but again forcing passes with no one making runs? Isnt that just giving the ball away? Then it would be ‘Fs why does Jorginho keep giving the ball away’. I am sure this was a recurring issue with David Luiz at times and people were annoyed about it, so... I mean its all a matter of perspective. We don't only just fail to exploit it because Jorginho doesnt play forward, under Frank for a period we tended to lack ideas bar hope Pulisic can do something. Or certainly last season. So again if failing to exploit teams is merely down to one player who plays at the base of our midfielder, god help us we are fucked. 

Didnt we play a false 9 system v Liverpool? You going to tell me there were obvious runs in behind we didn’t pass to? Because I am struggling to think of anything we could of done there because we were quite conservative, which isnt a Jorginho related issue, is a coaching decision. Did the game plan not pretty much look like kick it longer to Havertz and Werner, hoping they could conjure something up? Hardly as if it was precise passes in behind when it was 10 men it was pretty much aimlessly going longer because they were pressing us and had the numerical advantage, would you not agree?

In 2 and a bit seasons as a player who predominantly plays as a number 6 or in a 2 man MF in a 4231, Jorginho has created 12 big chances and completed 52 through balls. In the whole period Fernandinho has played for City, he has created 24 big chances and completed 75 through balls. Matic since coming back has created 11 big chances and completed 26 through balls. Rodri 3 big chances and 2 through balls.  Yes they do other things but the he passed forward with Sarri so why doesn't he with Frank is a bit of a flawed argument because the style of play was so much clearer and even when it started to go a bit stale you knew how we were going to play. The passes Jorginho made under Sarri yes I would like to see if he could do them more but its not just down to him is it? As I said, if the run isn't on its a waste because the other team get it.

Thats why the expectations on a player like him is getting daft. I mean do you want him to make the pass, make the run himself, then score the goal? Or should it not be looked at more as an issue with not just Jorginho but Kante and Kovacic as well as some other players? Which I think would be more accurate.

I do agree regarding Cesc but Cesc was also a totally different style of midfielder as well though also and while he played deeper for us his best football throughout his career at Arsenal and playing in one of the most successful teams in the history of football was as a more advanced midfielder. He was certainly a great passer and had the range yes but he was effectively a number 10/false 9 for Barcelona and Spain. A more advanced midfielder for Arsenal.

Mourinho’s teams have always been strong on counters and its obviously something thats worked on. Theres no way that happens by luck. That Madrid team he had for instance that won the league scored a huge number of counter attacking goals and these sort of things don’t purely just happen by luck. Same with some of the goals here in the first 2 years of his return. There were goals or chances from transitions that were probably more coached than people will give credit for or to get to a certain point then its on the players. Or thats what my take on it is. More so in his first spell also. Still the goal v Barcelona when Damien Duff scores strikes me as something that was very much coached because I mean you look at the movements and the one touch lay off straight away. Then second spell Schurrle v Man City which starts from us defending a corner. Some obviously rely on individuals and their actions also yes but I think some are worked on and coached on these guys getting into positions for these break aways.

[bohops 7]

If you think Kante doesn’t get catch up field or out wide, you have selective memory. This is the whole problem with all the midfielders, they all are to easily pulled out of positions. To me this is more a coaching/tactical problem. It’s happening too many times to be just a player problem. Both holders will get catch marking players out wide on throw-ins leaving the center-back expose constantly. I don’t understand!

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Yes he is limited in some ways but every player has limitations. And teams have limitations which affect players of different types with different strengths and weaknesses. 

Agree but Jorginho's limitations are way too glaring for a top side.

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Yes teams will come and attack us but again forcing passes with no one making runs? Isnt that just giving the ball away? Then it would be ‘Fs why does Jorginho keep giving the ball away’. I am sure this was a recurring issue with David Luiz at times and people were annoyed about it, so... I mean its all a matter of perspective. We don't only just fail to exploit it because Jorginho doesnt play forward, under Frank for a period we tended to lack ideas bar hope Pulisic can do something. Or certainly last season. So again if failing to exploit teams is merely down to one player who plays at the base of our midfielder, god help us we are fucked. 

Didnt we play a false 9 system v Liverpool? You going to tell me there were obvious runs in behind we didn’t pass to? Because I am struggling to think of anything we could of done there because we were quite conservative, which isnt a Jorginho related issue, is a coaching decision. Did the game plan not pretty much look like kick it longer to Havertz and Werner, hoping they could conjure something up? Hardly as if it was precise passes in behind when it was 10 men it was pretty much aimlessly going longer because they were pressing us and had the numerical advantage, would you not agree?

In 2 and a bit seasons as a player who predominantly plays as a number 6 or in a 2 man MF in a 4231, Jorginho has created 12 big chances and completed 52 through balls. In the whole period Fernandinho has played for City, he has created 24 big chances and completed 75 through balls. Matic since coming back has created 11 big chances and completed 26 through balls. Rodri 3 big chances and 2 through balls.  Yes they do other things but the he passed forward with Sarri so why doesn't he with Frank is a bit of a flawed argument because the style of play was so much clearer and even when it started to go a bit stale you knew how we were going to play. The passes Jorginho made under Sarri yes I would like to see if he could do them more but its not just down to him is it? As I said, if the run isn't on its a waste because the other team get it.

Thats why the expectations on a player like him is getting daft. I mean do you want him to make the pass, make the run himself, then score the goal? Or should it not be looked at more as an issue with not just Jorginho but Kante and Kovacic as well as some other players? Which I think would be more accurate.

Yes, we played a False 9 system against Liverpool but the plan was clearly to use Werner get in behind TAA on the counter. Below isn't all Jorginho but look at the number of runs ready to be made forward but nobody played that damn pass over the top!

https://twitter.com/centromid/status/1308041719296950274

Are you gonna tell me those are cases of forcing passes with no one making runs? Go through other games and I'm sure you would find similar moments that the runners aren't picked out by the person on the ball, be it Jorginho or even someone else. 

And even Fabregas was praising Werner's runs during the Liverpool game...

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree regarding Cesc but Cesc was also a totally different style of midfielder as well though also and while he played deeper for us his best football throughout his career at Arsenal and playing in one of the most successful teams in the history of football was as a more advanced midfielder. He was certainly a great passer and had the range yes but he was effectively a number 10/false 9 for Barcelona and Spain. A more advanced midfielder for Arsenal.

Who cares what Fabregas did for Arsenal/Barcelona/Spain? The point is he played as the deep lying playmaker for us and his creative play was exceptional, more so than someone like Jorginho. He had his limitations, especially defensively but at least he compensated it with his creativity and passing ability.

5 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Mourinho’s teams have always been strong on counters and its obviously something thats worked on. Theres no way that happens by luck. That Madrid team he had for instance that won the league scored a huge number of counter attacking goals and these sort of things don’t purely just happen by luck. Same with some of the goals here in the first 2 years of his return. There were goals or chances from transitions that were probably more coached than people will give credit for or to get to a certain point then its on the players. Or thats what my take on it is. More so in his first spell also. Still the goal v Barcelona when Damien Duff scores strikes me as something that was very much coached because I mean you look at the movements and the one touch lay off straight away. Then second spell Schurrle v Man City which starts from us defending a corner. Some obviously rely on individuals and their actions also yes but I think some are worked on and coached on these guys getting into positions for these break aways.

I was talking about his second tenure at the club. That Schurrle goal at Man City was one of the very, very few goals, if not the only the one, we scored from a counter attack. And I definitely recall saying back then that for a side coached by Mourinho, we were pretty useless in counter attacks because we always fucked it up one way or another. 

[Jase 43,479]

 

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

On 20/10/2020 at 6:08 AM, Jason said:

Yes, we played a False 9 system against Liverpool but the plan was clearly to use Werner get in behind TAA on the counter. Below isn't all Jorginho but look at the number of runs ready to be made forward but nobody played that damn pass over the top!

https://twitter.com/centromid/status/1308041719296950274

Are you gonna tell me those are cases of forcing passes with no one making runs? Go through other games and I'm sure you would find similar moments that the runners aren't picked out by the person on the ball, be it Jorginho or even someone else. 

All well and good and as you’ve said but those 4 photos, not one of them is Jorginho? So the others are at fault. But mainly, it seems to be why doesn’t HE play those passes? Not Kovacic, not Kante. Jorginho.

There is a photo of Jorginho playing that pass OTT to Werner v Liverpool in that Twitter thread, although it isnt great, hes played it still. Makes me wonder if he was on the ball for instance in any of those photos, I could argue he would maybe make one or two more of those passes but we won’t know because it wasn’t him on it? For me, personally it is just any game, any result, could be any other talking point and there will be someone complaining that Jorginho doesn’t do this or do that, I dont think there’s one game hes played where he has had a bad game this season in the league if I am honest but he is obviously not a player people appreciate to the degree they would others.

Its not a direct comment towards you because at least your giving an argument or your opinion towards it in a way where you've got actual things that make it a bit easier to see where your coming from but some people, he could play a very good game and its still a total meltdown or because he gave the ball away once or because he isn’t Usain Bolt its a disaster 🤣

I know I said that perhaps we don’t make the runs as much and okay thats photos showing otherwise in one game but again limiting it just down to one game, v Liverpool every week is hardly a good sample either. Its also not like Jorginho didn’t set Werner up with a pass OTT of a high line v Southampton. So I suppose the point is valid about their being runs to some degree but its not like we’ve missed the chance to find in 4, 5 or 6 of these runs every game. Ziyech should help as we seen in preseason v Brighton with that pass for Hudson-Odoi(?) I think for any movement but its still debatable.

Comparing him or many other MF players in the PL to Cesc is always going to end badly. He has like the 2nd top assists in PL history, so obviously his creativity was unbelievable and obviously going to top Jorginho’s.

Even then Cesc, still got a lot of stick here at times, even when trying to find people further forward because it wouldn't be coming off and he was apparently giving it away too much/shouldn’t be trying to force it as much... so its not as if people would be exempting him from any sort of criticism in the same way they have been overly critical of guys like Jorginho, Mason Mount, Branislav Ivanovic, Gary Cahill, Diego Costa, Mikel, the list could go on and on. 

[Azul 1,615]

The midfield version of Marcos Alonso. Can't wait for him to leave the club.

[Alabama 1,992]

Can you see how backward how play looks with Jorginho on the pitch...

[Puliiszola 519]

11 minutes ago, Alabama said:

Can you see how backward how play looks with Jorginho on the pitch...

Probably one of the most limited footballers to play the game. 

He is just so meh. Unless we have 3 injuries (kante, gilmour and kova), we simply should not be playing him. Even then play Andreas as a DM instead of jorginho.

[Alabama 1,992]

6 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Probably one of the most limited footballers to play the game. 

He is just so meh. Unless we have 3 injuries (kante, gilmour and kova), we simply should not be playing him. Even then play Andreas as a DM instead of jorginho.

James can slot in there as well...Thay explains why Havertz keeps dropping deep while he was on pitch....no vertical forward pass isolating the attacking players upfront...

[Jase 43,479]

 

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

God please no. Alonso situation 2.0

[ulvhedin 507]

Time and time again he is proving he is not o PL level. As a ball playing deep laying playmaker he is so error prone when pressured even slightest. Nice tweet about him:

 

 

[Fernando 6,453]

I hope we sell him to Arsenal. 

[King Kante 1,474]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

I hope we sell him to Arsenal. 

Only way this happens is if the Tapas Pulis keeps his job. 

[Alabama 1,992]

Just get rid of this turd outta of this club...

Another missed penalty...When will this misery of a player end?

[xPetrCechx 13,563]

23 minutes ago, Alabama said:

Just get rid of this turd outta of this club...

Another missed penalty...When will this misery of a player end?

When managers like lampard will decide that players like him shouldn't take penalties...

[Vesper 28,772]

OUT!