closed Hull v Chelsea

[jernej93 565]

Bench Cahill, Ivanović and Matić please 

 

CMON CHELSEA 

[Tomo 21,733]

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

He was actualy good for Stoke and I have no idea why they didnt sign him back then (or maybe we wanted more than they offered, who knows)

Papy has nothing to do with this. Moses put good performances every time he played for us this season. Willian's highlight of the season however is walking slowly off the pitch with no fucks given after we are 3:0 down to fucking arsenal.

That rotten attitude can leave the club and I dont care if its Messi himself. There is a reason why we were successful back then without having Ronaldinhos, Kakas, Ronaldos of the world. Because we had players that fucking gave a shit about our club. I will take someone who works hard every time over someone who is some wannabe who thinks that cant get benched.

He started all right like he does every season, he keeps himself in shape in the off season (fair play to him for that), which is why he is great in pre season and good when the season starts, as soon as the others catch up, that's when he disappears without trace. Papy has everything to do with this, because like Moses, I don't believe he is good enough to play for Chelsea, also I have no doubt Papy would have given 100% if given the chance, would that have stopped fans mocking him and giving him shit? I very much doubt it.

Also lets not pretend our 2004-2012 bunch were walking off sweating blood and tears every single game, they did a lot of amazing things for the club and will be forever a part of our history, but there were times the attitude of the players were questionable at best, most notably under Scolari, the duration of 10-11 and 11-12 until the last two months when they saw the CL in sight, the fact some of the current lot have sunk even lower attitude wise has seemed to create the particular myth that everything was all garden and roses for the whole eight years, it wasn't.

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

You would take Willian at 50% over someone less talented, but who would give his 100%? Shame. Thats the reason we are in this shit situation right now. Its all about names. Willian is better, more composed on the ball, more experienced, part of winning team 2014 etc etc. And so he should keep playing even if he is now only a shadow of himself and there is someone else on bench who is actualy doing better? Nah.

No it's not the reason we are in this shit situation right now, and playing someone who has proven not good enough at PL is going to improve it how? Like ive already alluded too Papy would also give 100% and yes id rather keep Cahill playing than entertain the idea of Papy playing for us.

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Courtois walked straight into team without proving himself against Cech, and that been ever since. And look where he is now. Half the player he was when he was in atletico where he would get replaced with that attitude in a second.

Courtois came into the team because of four almost flawless season's previous while Cech was floundering, Cech hasn't had a world class season since 10-11 and he hasn't been exactly setting the world alight at Arsenal either, a fair chunk of Arsenal supporters want him dropped for Ospina. I can understand some arguments for choosing Cech, the leadership part especially, but every time Tibo makes a mistake people act like we let go a flawless keeper, if Petr stayed and made some of the error's he has for Arsenal, the meltdown on the Courtois thread would make the KDB and Sturridge (in 2013) one's look calm and rational.

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

At the least he should be benched so he gets a fucking message that he needs to work to be in 11, that he needs to get his arse back to 100%. Maybe few games on bench will give him boost to perform better. If yes, win for us. If not, then he can fuck off to another club to give his 50% in every game. He aint exceptional player like Eden to get this kind of bonuses.

Same applies to all other players.

I would happily see him dropped if the replacement was even remotely good enough, which Moses isn't. If he was going to try Costa on the right and Bats up front vs Hull (Costa has played that role before) or vice versa (if Bats can play that), I wouldn't mind, might go wrong but might work. Moses won't work, he's not good and he seems to be the new squad player pet project that fans try and make sound better than he is actually is (last year it was Remy, year before Schurrle, year before that Bertrand etc).

[BlueLyon 9,359]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

He started all right like he does every season, he keeps himself in shape in the off season (fair play to him for that), which is why he is great in pre season and good when the season starts, as soon as the others catch up, that's when he disappears without trace. Papy has everything to do with this, because like Moses, I don't believe he is good enough to play for Chelsea, also I have no doubt Papy would have given 100% if given the chance, would that have stopped fans mocking him and giving him shit? I very much doubt it.

Also lets not pretend our 2004-2012 bunch were walking off sweating blood and tears every single game, they did a lot of amazing things for the club and will be forever a part of our history, but there were times the attitude of the players were questionable at best, most notably under Scolari, the duration of 10-11 and 11-12 until the last two months when they saw the CL in sight, the fact some of the current lot have sunk even lower attitude wise has seemed to create the particular myth that everything was all garden and roses for the whole eight years, it wasn't.

No it's not the reason we are in this shit situation right now, and playing someone who has proven not good enough at PL is going to improve it how? Like ive already alluded too Papy would also give 100% and yes id rather keep Cahill playing than entertain the idea of Papy playing for us.

Courtois came into the team because of four almost flawless season's previous while Cech was floundering, Cech hasn't had a world class season since 10-11 and he hasn't been exactly setting the world alight at Arsenal either, a fair chunk of Arsenal supporters want him dropped for Ospina. I can understand some arguments for choosing Cech, the leadership part especially, but every time Tibo makes a mistake people act like we let go a flawless keeper, if Petr stayed and made some of the error's he has for Arsenal, the meltdown on the Courtois thread would make the KDB and Sturridge (in 2013) one's look calm and rational.

I would happily see him dropped if the replacement was even remotely good enough, which Moses isn't. If he was going to try Costa on the right and Bats up front vs Hull (Costa has played that role before) or vice versa (if Bats can play that), I wouldn't mind, might go wrong but might work. Moses won't work, he's not good and he seems to be the new squad player pet project that fans try and make sound better than he is actually is (last year it was Remy, year before Schurrle, year before that Bertrand etc).

Well its funny because Schurrle and Bertrand are doing better than those who replaced them and were supposed to be better 

Fair share of people also said that Luis wasnt good enough and didnt realy complain with sale until he beasted again for Atletico.

There is a reason why we are so poor for past 8 years or so, with exception of few runs. 

Because people have this perception that Cahill, Willian etc are still very good players, much better than the likes of previously mentioned Moses or Schurrle, Bertrand etc...its a myth. 

But no one has the balls to bench them because of their status or lack of trust in other players.

No, Papy has no place in comparisson with Moses. Papy didnt play well for us even last year, I would prefer Cahill ahead. Even if he gave 100, he didnt show anything. Moses had good season at stoke, and now few good games this season. He did better than Willian IMO, and thats all that matters when deciding who to pick for next match.

Im going completely off topic, but last season Pep bought Coman to bayern, after Coman had pretty poor spells at juve and Psg. Regardless, Ribery and Robben were injured and bit out of form later, and Pep gave chance to Coman still. Didnt matter how big Robbery was, Coman was given a fair chance. And thats all there is. Kenedy would never get that chance and even if Willian was in worst form of his life. 

Its not just about Moses. Its about sending message to these players that they better get their shit together or they can leave. Moses might not be brilliant, like u said, but he 1.) Deserves a chance and 2.) Willian deserves to be benched.

Like with your Yaya example, Willian is similar. Pep would never play Yaya even if he only had Delph available as alternative. He would also rather play Moses than Willian who clearly doesnt give fuck atm (and like I said, this applies to rest of the team too). Tbh Pep would buy Willians replacement in summer, but thats not the point.

I just dont get it why are people so against benching underperforming players. Like if you were scared we will play even worse, when in fact looking at last three games, we almost cant play worse. I dont know why such lack of faith in other players. Then you complain why we sold this guy and that guy...but you never want to take some risks.

[bluephoenix 1,126]

6 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Well its funny because Schurrle and Bertrand are doing better than those who replaced them and were supposed to be better 

Fair share of people also said that Luis wasnt good enough and didnt realy complain with sale until he beasted again for Atletico.

160516_NS500699_0022_AH7257BGXY_A163.csv

Because people have this perception that Cahill, Willian etc are still very good players, much better than the likes of previously mentioned Moses or Schurrle, Bertrand etc...its a myth. 

But no one has the balls to bench them because of their status or lack of trust in other players.

No, Papy has no place in comparisson with Moses. Papy didnt play well for us even last year, I would prefer Cahill ahead. Even if he gave 100, he didnt show anything. Moses had good season at stoke, and now few good games this season. He did better than Willian IMO, and thats all that matters when deciding who to pick for next match.

Im going completely off topic, but last season Pep bought Coman to bayern, after Coman had pretty poor spells at juve and Psg. Regardless, Ribery and Robben were injured and bit out of form later, and Pep gave chance to Coman still. Didnt matter how big Robbery was, Coman was given a fair chance. And thats all there is. Kenedy would never get that chance and even if Willian was in worst form of his life. 

Its not just about Moses. Its about sending message to these players that they better get their shit together or they can leave. Moses might not be brilliant, like u said, but he 1.) Deserves a chance and 2.) Willian deserves to be benched.

Like with your Yaya example, Willian is similar. Pep would never play Yaya even if he only had Delph available as alternative. He would also rather play Moses than Willian who clearly doesnt give fuck atm (and like I said, this applies to rest of the team too). Tbh Pep would buy Willians replacement in summer, but thats not the point.

I just dont get it why are people so against benching underperforming players. Like if you were scared we will play even worse, when in fact looking at last three games, we almost cant play worse. I dont know why such lack of faith in other players. Then you complain why we sold this guy and that guy...but you never want to take some risks.

The problem is we don't have the patience. We expect somebody from the Youth or someone who hasn't started for us to suddenly produce a performance of his life. Even if he did, like all of us they are human. Not everyone can perform at peek match after match ( although that is what separates normal from exceptional) and the remedy is "rotation". Something we have been screaming for ages and none of the managers seem to have the gut to pull that one off.

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

Hull scored 1 against Arsenal and Liverpool in their last 2 matches. Wonder how many they'll score against us.

[jernej93 565]

22 minutes ago, Jason said:

Hull scored 1 against Arsenal and Liverpool in their last 2 matches. Wonder how many they'll score against us.

With Cahill, Matić and Ivanović in our lineup they could easily score 2 or 3 on a good day 

[AWorriedChelseaFan 151]

            TBO

Dave  Terry  Luiz  Alonso

           Mikel/Kante

        Kante/Chalobah   Cesc/Oscar

Moses/Willian   Costa  Hazard/Pedro

 

I'd take any sort of win here, Hull away with our current league form ain't going to be an easy match what-so-ever. But I believe we can come out of this with a 3-1 win...here's hoping.

 

[Tomo 21,733]

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Well its funny because Schurrle and Bertrand are doing better than those who replaced them and were supposed to be better 

Fair share of people also said that Luis wasnt good enough and didnt realy complain with sale until he beasted again for Atletico.

There is a reason why we are so poor for past 8 years or so, with exception of few runs. 

Because people have this perception that Cahill, Willian etc are still very good players, much better than the likes of previously mentioned Moses or Schurrle, Bertrand etc...its a myth. 

But no one has the balls to bench them because of their status or lack of trust in other players.

No, Papy has no place in comparisson with Moses. Papy didnt play well for us even last year, I would prefer Cahill ahead. Even if he gave 100, he didnt show anything. Moses had good season at stoke, and now few good games this season. He did better than Willian IMO, and thats all that matters when deciding who to pick for next match.

Im going completely off topic, but last season Pep bought Coman to bayern, after Coman had pretty poor spells at juve and Psg. Regardless, Ribery and Robben were injured and bit out of form later, and Pep gave chance to Coman still. Didnt matter how big Robbery was, Coman was given a fair chance. And thats all there is. Kenedy would never get that chance and even if Willian was in worst form of his life. 

Its not just about Moses. Its about sending message to these players that they better get their shit together or they can leave. Moses might not be brilliant, like u said, but he 1.) Deserves a chance and 2.) Willian deserves to be benched.

Like with your Yaya example, Willian is similar. Pep would never play Yaya even if he only had Delph available as alternative. He would also rather play Moses than Willian who clearly doesnt give fuck atm (and like I said, this applies to rest of the team too). Tbh Pep would buy Willians replacement in summer, but thats not the point.

I just dont get it why are people so against benching underperforming players. Like if you were scared we will play even worse, when in fact looking at last three games, we almost cant play worse. I dont know why such lack of faith in other players. Then you complain why we sold this guy and that guy...but you never want to take some risks.

Actually you are right the comparison is pointless, Papy actually shone on loan and earned a permanent move to a PL club.

Are you actually comparing Moses to the likes of Coman and Kenedy? The latter two are young players with clear potential Moses is a 25 year old with 6 and a half years of PL experience and has done the bare root of fuck all during that time. I've probably seen him play over all about 70-80 times, how many times did i think he had a good game? About 10, and most of them were in the opening stages of the season when he was ahead of most in fitness. When he arrivred here the first time I wasn't convinced but as he was young i was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was young, now he's 25 and still got the same issues he had then.

Also you are acting like i don't want Willian to he dropped, I do, if Traore was here id be campaigning for it to happen, what I don't want is for him to be dropped for someone who I find frustrating to watch even when he's not in our colours. He deserves a chance? No he doesn't, he's been in the PL for nearly seven years and shown nothing to suggest he should even be a squad player. We cant moan at the board for lack of ambition then be happy with players like Moses.

Hopefully im still having these type of debates re Moses come April, because that will mean he hasn't seen much of the pitch or even better found a new club.

[Henrique 9,133]

On 28/09/2016 at 1:37 AM, BlueLyon said:

Arsenal went with Iwobi and he did well.

Moses might not be your typical fancy player for big club, but this is the problem with this club. Moses isnt big name and no fucking way should he play. Even if Willian is absolutely rubbish, Moses isnt the guy. This thinking. 

Moses did realy good in all games he got chance. He tries hard and wants to prove himself.

The only thing hurting your eyes is players like him not given a chance. 

Now if we had frickin Ronaldo in this team, I would understand, but I dont want Willian or Pedro nowhere near first 11 because they are rubbish atm, so giving Moses a go is not a bad idea at all.

Few years ago, we had Schurrle, Kdb, Luiz in this team, but we said, no not good enough, and decided to play with more established players instead. Im not saying Moses will turn into a top player, but I just hoped the fans and board would realise by now that big name or established player means shit. Moses like those mentioned before is talented enough and shown enough to get a fuckin run. They didnt get one, but like I said I hope the board learned from their mistakes. 

For the future, we still have Christansen, Aina, Charly and Kenedy at the least, but if they dont get chance here, they will get it elsewhere. They will probably play average in first few games, but people should show some fuckin faith for the first time in 10 years here.

We are in shithole situation right now and who knows maybe Moses is gonna be a late bloomer, maybe not. Its not like we have brilliant performers right now, so why not give him a chance? 

You are 100% wrong, and you are 100% contradicting yourself. Moses is an average player. Well, "Willian is not giving a shit". Willian doesn't giving a shit still is a better player than Moses, just like Matic still is a better player than Loftus Cheek.

The reason why Schurle, KDB and Luis left was exactly this: they were not doing ok, so they left and people didn't care back then, but guess what, the team wasn't getting anyone else to replace them, and comparing Moses with Schurlle, KDB and Luis is just stupid. Luis was doing great for Atletico Madrid and was considered one of the best LB in Europe when he was signed. Schurli always scored some goals when he had enough playing time, and previously he had a good record and Bundesliga, and was already playing for Germany NT. KDB was a promissing kid, and he was making his Premier League debut. Moses has enough experience in PL, and in past 3 seasons he played for Liverpool, Stoke and West Ham, where he was no more than squad player.

So I want the likes of Pedro, Willian, Ivanovic, Matic and Oscar dropped as soon as the club get the right replacements, but only asking for someone else to play because you think they are not good enough, is just the typical reaction football fans usually have: when the team is not playing good, the fans will ask for the ones who are sitting on the bench to play.

Anyone who ask for Moses, have no right to complain about the quality of this squad. End of it.

[Henrique 9,133]

28 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Actually you are right the comparison is pointless, Papy actually shone on loan and earned a permanent move to a PL club.

Are you actually comparing Moses to the likes of Coman and Kenedy? The latter two are young players with clear potential Moses is a 25 year old with 6 and a half years of PL experience and has done the bare root of fuck all during that time. I've probably seen him play over all about 70-80 times, how many times did i think he had a good game? About 10, and most of them were in the opening stages of the season when he was ahead of most in fitness. When he arrivred here the first time I wasn't convinced but as he was young i was happy to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was young, now he's 25 and still got the same issues he had then.

Also you are acting like i don't want Willian to he dropped, I do, if Traore was here id be campaigning for it to happen, what I don't want is for him to be dropped for someone who I find frustrating to watch even when he's not in our colours. He deserves a chance? No he doesn't, he's been in the PL for nearly seven years and shown nothing to suggest he should even be a squad player. We cant moan at the board for lack of ambition then be happy with players like Moses.

Hopefully im still having these type of debates re Moses come April, because that will mean he hasn't seen much of the pitch or even better found a new club.

If Willian has a bad game but scores against Hull or if he can produce a good game, no one will be asking for Moses for at least one week.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

3 hours ago, Henrique said:

You are 100% wrong, and you are 100% contradicting yourself. Moses is an average player. Well, "Willian is not giving a shit". Willian doesn't giving a shit still is a better player than Moses, just like Matic still is a better player than Loftus Cheek.

The reason why Schurle, KDB and Luis left was exactly this: they were not doing ok, so they left and people didn't care back then, but guess what, the team wasn't getting anyone else to replace them, and comparing Moses with Schurlle, KDB and Luis is just stupid. Luis was doing great for Atletico Madrid and was considered one of the best LB in Europe when he was signed. Schurli always scored some goals when he had enough playing time, and previously he had a good record and Bundesliga, and was already playing for Germany NT. KDB was a promissing kid, and he was making his Premier League debut. Moses has enough experience in PL, and in past 3 seasons he played for Liverpool, Stoke and West Ham, where he was no more than squad player.

So I want the likes of Pedro, Willian, Ivanovic, Matic and Oscar dropped as soon as the club get the right replacements, but only asking for someone else to play because you think they are not good enough, is just the typical reaction football fans usually have: when the team is not playing good, the fans will ask for the ones who are sitting on the bench to play.

Anyone who ask for Moses, have no right to complain about the quality of this squad. End of it.

You are missing my point. Much like Moses isnt (apparently) more useful than Willian (as you and Tomo think); same was with those other players like Luiz and Schurrle. Its not about their quality. They were never given a chance. 

People said, Schurrle shouldnt play, Willian plays better. Luis shouldnt play Iva plays better. Kdb and so on and on and on. And its true. At the time, they were inferior players to our starters (much like Moses is to Willian), but they got chance elsewhere and are lot better than what we have now. 

Tbh right now I would play Moses ahead of Willian, so its just you who thinks that Willian not giving shit is better than Moses. Im not contradicting myself.

All Im saying is that Moses should be given a chance here, because he did well so far and Willian did poor so far. 

And moreso, because poor form players have to benched with whoever we have so they learn a fucking lession that they are not ireeplacable and need to work harder (on that occasion, for few games Moses will do just fine to slot in as he did show so far). He doesnt have to be Messi or whatever, but like I said if he wakes Willian, we will be better. And if Willian wont care to be on bench, sell him. 

Because we have many players and keep playing the same players who did fuck all for past year and still play. And I dont buy the crap that others simply aint better, because its not a coincidence when they permamently move away they begin to shine. 

I dont buy the crap that we dont have better fullback than Iva and that its reason why Iva keeps playing. Ffs I would play Aina over Iva right now.

But problem with our board (and in this case you and Tomo) that you have no faith in players we have. 

@Tomo speaking of Moses development, just how much did Willian improve over the years then? Gets to play all the time and on consistent level, he improved jack shit since his arrival. 

And like I said, its all attitude. If the players dont give a shit, you bench them. Every club does it, but ours. Thats why we are in this mess. Because like you two, in theory dont have the balls to drop underperforming player for someone else. If we had Kenedy I would play him or Traore even. But we dont. We right now have Moses. 

But hey, lets keep playing Willian and Matic and Iva, because we are too afraid to play others who didnt prove themselves. 

Well @Tomo we might continue the debate in april, but your missing the point. I dont mean Moses is/will turn brilliant, but on current situation he should play for reasons mentioned earlier. And if he somehow explodes, even better then.

 

[communicate 2,703]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:13 AM, jernej93 said:

 

I don't get it either ... Conte is a master of 352 and he should play it! He was doing something similiar with Italian national team, trying different systems to fit all the players but in the end they had big success with 352

In the end only Terry will come in for Cahill ... 

When you have Bonucci, chielinie and Barzagli in your teams and shitty wingers , 352 is the best formation

[Antonio8 736]

352            curtois cahill terry luiz azpi kante fabregas chalobah (oscar) alonso hazard costa

 

[mccg 1,528]

We will maybe see what Conte is about if he does or does not change formation/personnel? He has had full week of work to sort some basic things out,here's hoping.

[Special Juan 27,424]

Cahill and Luiz again then, if not Ivanovic and Luiz with Azpi at RB and Alonso LB.

[coolhead23 1,146]

Damn!!! Terry out ... Not good for us ... 

Still we need to drop Cahill even if it means that we need to put in a 17-18yr kid instead ... It is high time Conte makes a statement that no one can take their place for granted. 

[jernej93 565]

Azpi - Chalobah - Luiz

Or use Alonso as LCB and Pedro/Willian on left wingback

 

[Jack25 3]

Ivanovic and Luiz at CB please. Azpi and Alonso at full back.