The Mourinho Thread

[Muzchap 8,966]

I concur with him partly about expenditure & have already stated that a healthy budget will aid a managers chance of success but not all & Ranieri, Mark Hughes & even RDM this season are proof of this to name but a few.

Apologies but I get a little vexed when people are hypocritical & ignorant - he 'bigs up' Ranieri despite him spending a fortune & wins nothing but totally discredits Jose achievements for him actually winning trophies, breaking records & being our most successful manager ever all cus he had a 'nice wad' to spend - the irony is, he doesn't get the bit that Ranieri spent a 'large wad' too or that Jose was successful at Porto spending nothing, you do the maths fella & try & get it through to him cus I'm done....

These petty discussions I was having with bitter Arsenal, Utd & Liverpool fans on other forums a few years ago, I don't expect it from our own but nothing surprises me with fans of today.

Happy Xmas to you fella anyway.

Happy Xmas too mate

I understand - but sometimes people have their own agenda and as much as you spell it out they won't listen

Happen to agree with everything you said

[GodZola 630]

@GodZola, is right. Ranieri made some astute signing's and i have nothing but appreciation for some of the contributions he made during his time here, but to even remotely credit him for Jose's success is a joke. The same as Rijkaard somehow gets credit for Pep's Barca success.

Jose got some of Ranieri's signing's playing to a level the tinkerman could never do. Jose got us playing with such confidence and assurance i have never seen before and haven't since, with Ranieri we were always on the receiving end of a few upset's every season even in his year under Abramovic, how many shock defeats did we fall victim to under Jose? probably one which was the 3-0 loss at Boro.

Money helps, but any one who thinks any half decent manger could have walzed in Kings Road in June 2004 and had similar success are off their rocker.

Like you stated in a previous post Tomo, taking on & beating the 'untouchables' was a tremendous achievement this in his first season which was incredibly surpassed the following one! Jose is obviously not to everybody's taste but for me there is no one better & the irony is I don't think he would need a big budget to get us back to being champions again.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

It helps ofcourse, but as i just said in my last post anyone who thinks any half decent manager could have done what Jose said with similar or even more money are sadly mistaken.

Money is a small part of it, infact having money could work against manager's if they don't apply them self's properly.

That's nonsense and you are ignoring fact! Money is the single most important factor in winning.This is not even debatable You can actually look at winning clubs and what allows them to win and what they have in common in a scientific way. What they have in common, is money. Calling it a "small part" is ridiculous. The highest spending teams in England are right now 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 8th in the table. The highest spending club in Germany is 1st. The highest spending clubs in Spain are #1 and #2. The highest spending club in Italy is #1. The highest spending club in Portugal is #1. The highest spending team in France is #1. etc...This is not some theoretical subject where we can say "who knows what allows clubs to win". We know why clubs win. Clubs win because they spend money. Yes, there will be blips over the course of a year or two. Smaller spending teams can win and bigger spending teams can lose, but it always be a blip. Reading will never win the Premier League because they don't spend, not because they have a poor manager.

To me, this is like the Republican argument in the US when they say "people are rich because they work hard" when you can clearly see, again, factually, that people are usually rich because they are born to rich families. We have hard data and I don't know how people can argue against that with theoreticals. (and yes, the link between spending and winning is fact) but the myth of "the great manager" will be a hard one to kill.

[Tomo 21,751]

Like you stated in a previous post Tomo, taking on & beating the 'untouchables' was a tremendous achievement this in his first season which was incredibly surpassed the following one!

What makes it even better is i actually thought Arsenal were better that season then they were in their unbeaten season, atleast in an attacking sense.

Strange as it sound's during their unbeaten season they were drawing a lot and winning by 1-2 goals, infact apart from when they beat Leeds 5-0 and Inter 5-1, did they thrash any one out of sight that term?

I remember the start of the 04/05 season they beat Everton 4-1 , Norwich by the same score Charlton 4-0. They devoured teams like Birmingham and Fulham at Highbury who in the unbeaten campaign drew at the same ground. It looked like they got even better and after 9 games were 5 points and 20 goals ahead of us.

[Tomo 21,751]

That's nonsense and you are ignoring fact! Money is the single most important factor in winning.This is not even debatable You can actually look at winning clubs and what allows them to win and what they have in common in a scientific way. What they have in common, is money. Calling it a "small part" is ridiculous. The highest spending teams in England are right now 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 8th in the table. The highest spending club in Germany is 1st. The highest spending clubs in Spain are #1 and #2. The highest spending club in Italy is #1. The highest spending club in Portugal is #1. The highest spending team in France is #1. etc...This is not some theoretical subject where we can say "who knows what allows clubs to win". We know why clubs win. Clubs win because they spend money. Yes, there will be blips over the course of a year or two. Smaller spending teams can win and bigger spending teams can lose, but it always be a blip. Reading will never win the Premier League because they don't spend, not because they have a poor manager.

To me, this is like the Republican argument in the US when they say "people are rich because they work hard" when you can clearly see, again, factually, that people are usually rich because they are born to rich families. We have hard data and I don't know how people can argue against that with theoreticals. (and yes, the link between spending and winning is fact) but the myth of "the great manager" will be a hard one to kill.

So if we look at it that way does any title winning manager deserve credit?

Does Fergie deserve any credit for his 90's dominance because he spent most of that decade leaching off his rivals best players and signing them, he got up to those old tricks this summer aswell. Is it an achievement Fergie beating Arsenal when he plays Van Persie or is it minimum requirement?

As i said money does help a lot but you need to do so much more. Need to get the team playing for you, actually spend the money on the right players (which is where the 2 men i pictured in the last page fell short in), have some form of talent (could Iain Dowie win the league with unlimited cash?).

If we are going to value manager's purely on a money to result's ratio then the best manager in the world is probably Paul Tidsdale for Exeter, he assembled a squad up to league 1 where all the squad bar one player was assembled for nothing.

[GodZola 630]

I'm not ignoring the points you have to make, I just have nothing to say to them. It's not a debate I'm particularly interested in to be honest.

I just took your reply to Toronto as judgemental. You seemed to judge him and generalize him with other fans, which never makes sense because everyone has different opinions (which is why I try not to generalize and listen to everyone).

He can fight his own corner (excuse the pun lol)

Look, perhaps my words were a little OTT but I used them merely in the disagreement of this discussion, I have no doubt I will prob agree with Toronto in many other topics so please don't get confused that I'm judging his personality on one single debate only. I've always been honest on here & will say how I see it, trust me if there is another debate in here & I agree with Toronto I will be by his side as you are, I'm on nobodys side, thing is I don't get on here much to enter discussions.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

So if we look at it that way does any title winning manager deserve credit?

Does Fergie deserve any credit for his 90's dominance because he spent most of that decade leaching off his rivals best players and signing them, he got up to those old tricks this summer aswell. Is it an achievement Fergie beating Arsenal when he plays Van Persie or is it minimum requirement?

As i said money does help a lot but you need to do so much more. Need to get the team playing for you, actually spend the money on the right players (which is where the 2 men i pictured in the last page fell short in), have some form of talent (could Iain Dowie win the league with unlimited cash?).

If we are going to value manager's purely on a money to result's ratio then the best manager in the world is probably Paul Tidsdale for Exeter, he assembled a squad up to league 1 where all the squad bar one player was assembled for nothing.

They deserve some credit because they have to hold a team together and not screw up. What AVB did last year was the example of how a manager can screw up by simply not communicating his message properly and losing his players. Managers are not useless. Hiring a manager that is respected by players is important so they will listen to him. and because he will install certain tactics that will work with the players you have. (In this, Pep would be a much better choice than Mourinho for the team we're building). But managers make 5-10% of the difference. You might get a few more points with the right guy, but no manager is going to make a mediocre team great. If managers made an enormous difference, you'd see a manager go into a side, that side suddenly massively improve without spending any more money than usual (or getting some new star come through the youth system), and then when that manager leaves, the side gets suddenly worse and stays that way. That just doesn't happen. Managerial stability is important because it gives the manager more say and players have to behave. SAF can control ManU because the players all know that he's in charge. There is value in that.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

He can fight his own corner (excuse the pun lol)

Look, perhaps my words were a little OTT but I used them merely in the disagreement of this discussion, I have no doubt I will prob agree with Toronto in many other topics so please don't get confused that I'm judging his personality on one single debate only. I've always been honest on here & will say how I see it, trust me if there is another debate in here & I agree with Toronto I will be by his side as you are, I'm on nobodys side, thing is I don't get on here much to enter discussions.

I don't have a problem with debating. I enjoy it and I think it's what makes boards good. (I've been on some where everyone has to agree on every topic on every evaluation of every player, it becomes fascistic and uninteresting).

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Obviously two exceptions.

Are you disagreeing with the statement 'when you spend, you win?' I don't see how anyone can disagree. Obviously, I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win, but it will certainly help A LOT.

Let me put it this way: In today's game, you can't win without spending and spending big, but only a great manager can spend big, change more than half the team and win. It takes a special set of managerial talents, even if you have all the money in the world, to get the right players that would fit into your team and then create chemistry in your team.

Those 2 are not exceptions, look at Carlo who despite being a great manager, practically has all the money in the world and is still failing at PSG ( I know that they are top but with the squad he has compared to the other team, I consider it a failure to not be at least 8-10 points clear at the top by now )

[Corner 456]

Let me put it this way: In today's game, you can't win without spending and spending big, but only a great manager can spend big, change more than half the team and win. It takes a special set of managerial talents, even if you have all the money in the world, to get the right players that would fit into your team and then create chemistry in your team.

Those 2 are not exceptions, look at Carlo who despite being a great manager, practically has all the money in the world and is still failing at PSG ( I know that they are top but with the squad he has compared to the other team, I consider it a failure to not be at least 8-10 points clear at the top by now )

I know mate. That's why I said 'I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win'.

[GodZola 630]

I don't have a problem with debating. I enjoy it and I think it's what makes boards good. (I've been on some where everyone has to agree on every topic on every evaluation of every player, it becomes fascistic and uninteresting).

Totally agree, a good debate can be enjoyable & well.....you need that little extra spark to get things a little juicy - atleast we've provided some entertainment for others! The forums I use too frequent were for all clubs & there was never that many of us cfc fans on there (think it might be cus we have so many of our own forums?) so we were always overrun by jealous Utd, Liverpool or mostly Gooner supporters, it became a waste of time posting. To their credit I found Spurs supporters very unbiased & often sided with us, which may surprise a few on here.

[GodZola 630]

What makes it even better is i actually thought Arsenal were better that season then they were in their unbeaten season, atleast in an attacking sense.

Strange as it sound's during their unbeaten season they were drawing a lot and winning by 1-2 goals, infact apart from when they beat Leeds 5-0 and Inter 5-1, did they thrash any one out of sight that term?

I remember the start of the 04/05 season they beat Everton 4-1 , Norwich by the same score Charlton 4-0. They devoured teams like Birmingham and Fulham at Highbury who in the unbeaten campaign drew at the same ground. It looked like they got even better and after 9 games were 5 points and 20 goals ahead of us.

Yeah that's true, they might not of lost in 03/04 season but they drew so many games, we were just so unbelievably consistent & for that period, I was actually quite fortunate as work & family commitments were nothing like they are now & I went to so many more games then, which was fantastic knowing we had little chance of losing & no goals conceded was the bet! Still think the side of 05/06 & the records broken that year is very much under rated by media & other fans alike but I suppose I am very much biased!

[Laylabelle 9,534]

Let me put it this way: In today's game, you can't win without spending and spending big, but only a great manager can spend big, change more than half the team and win. It takes a special set of managerial talents, even if you have all the money in the world, to get the right players that would fit into your team and then create chemistry in your team.

Those 2 are not exceptions, look at Carlo who despite being a great manager, practically has all the money in the world and is still failing at PSG ( I know that they are top but with the squad he has compared to the other team, I consider it a failure to not be at least 8-10 points clear at the top by now )

Exactly.I do find the 'money buys you titles' arguement is bollocks.You can buy as many players and big names if you want but you need a Manager who can fit them into a way that works.Fergie hasnt always spent big but when he does,his signings make an impact and fit right away.

Man City spent a lot but didnt gel right away and arent all that stil really

[cadenza666 221]

he needs to come back home

[Jase 43,479]