The Mourinho Thread

[Muzchap 8,966]

You are the absolute epitome of why I rarely post on here - no matter what or how hard you try to be unbiased in a 'discussion' your kind always come back with some bullshit or stat or 'my mate' bollocks that trys to justify your argument!

Ranieri spent over a 100m to get second - wow! Jose spent 90m on Drogba, Carvalho, Feirarra & Tiago also a couple of others in his first 'double trophy season' then brought in Essien & a few others spending significantly less & oh won back to back Prems - yeah only bacon face has done that feat?! The third season he has the likes of Shevchenko forced upon him, spent less & sold more, we had an horrendous injury list including the best goalkeeper on the planet at the time & a very good back up injured in the same game, yet we still gave Utd one hell of a fight & let's not forget we won 2 cups that year........

You keep coming up with your useless stats of putting Jose achievements as nothing more than a good chequebook & I will continue to give you the truth of how things were - I see you conveniently forget the injuries we had in 06/07 but seem to fathom that we got worse year on year of Jose tenure, not sure how that was when we won back to back Prems & the second year we broke record after record?!!!!!!!

You just go back to your little Ranieri world of winning fuckall, spending more & continue to dismiss Jose achievements with ignorance & arrogance & I will go back to my own discussions with real football people that don't post on this site.

I would respect you more if just came & said you can't stand Jose, pfft...........

Chill man it's Xmas Day

I think you are both right, combination of money and the right players and management = success

Glenn Hoddle started the modern day CFC revolution, countless managers have taken over since and we keep improving, Raneiri had a great backbone in the squad which Jose enhanced.

Both are good managers!!!

Will either return? unlikely!!!

[GodZola 630]

Chill man it's Xmas Day

I think you are both right, combination of money and the right players and management = success

Glenn Hoddle started the modern day CFC revolution, countless managers have taken over since and we keep improving, Raneiri had a great backbone in the squad which Jose enhanced.

Both are good managers!!!

Will either return? unlikely!!!

I concur with him partly about expenditure & have already stated that a healthy budget will aid a managers chance of success but not all & Ranieri, Mark Hughes & even RDM this season are proof of this to name but a few.

Apologies but I get a little vexed when people are hypocritical & ignorant - he 'bigs up' Ranieri despite him spending a fortune & wins nothing but totally discredits Jose achievements for him actually winning trophies, breaking records & being our most successful manager ever all cus he had a 'nice wad' to spend - the irony is, he doesn't get the bit that Ranieri spent a 'large wad' too or that Jose was successful at Porto spending nothing, you do the maths fella & try & get it through to him cus I'm done....

These petty discussions I was having with bitter Arsenal, Utd & Liverpool fans on other forums a few years ago, I don't expect it from our own but nothing surprises me with fans of today.

Happy Xmas to you fella anyway.

[Corner 456]

You are the absolute epitome of why I rarely post on here - no matter what or how hard you try to be unbiased in a 'discussion' your kind always come back with some bullshit or stat or 'my mate' bollocks that trys to justify your argument!

Ranieri spent over a 100m to get second - wow! Jose spent 90m on Drogba, Carvalho, Feirarra & Tiago also a couple of others in his first 'double trophy season' then brought in Essien & a few others spending significantly less & oh won back to back Prems - yeah only bacon face has done that feat?! The third season he has the likes of Shevchenko forced upon him, spent less & sold more, we had an horrendous injury list including the best goalkeeper on the planet at the time & a very good back up injured in the same game, yet we still gave Utd one hell of a fight & let's not forget we won 2 cups that year........

You keep coming up with your useless stats of putting Jose achievements as nothing more than a good chequebook & I will continue to give you the truth of how things were - I see you conveniently forget the injuries we had in 06/07 but seem to fathom that we got worse year on year of Jose tenure, not sure how that was when we won back to back Prems & the second year we broke record after record?!!!!!!!

You just go back to your little Ranieri world of winning fuckall, spending more & continue to dismiss Jose achievements with ignorance & arrogance & I will go back to my own discussions with real football people that don't post on this site.

I would respect you more if just came & said you can't stand Jose, pfft...........

So anyone who doesn't adore Mourinho and think he is an absolute genius, that means they must hate him or can't stand him?

No one is dismissing Jose's achievements. It's just that sometimes he is given too much credit for things that were nowhere near genius. Spending over £100 million is not 'genius'. And no disrespect to Jose or any other manager, but when you spend you win. You can't argue against that.

This sort of nonsensical logic comes up in a lot of arguments on here. For example, if you don't think Sturridge is a great player, then you must be a 'Torres fanboy'. If you don't think Mourinho is a genius, then you must be a 'Mourinho hater'.

[GodZola 630]

So anyone who doesn't adore Mourinho and think he is an absolute genius, that means they must hate him or can't stand him?

No one is dismissing Jose's achievements. It's just that sometimes he is given too much credit for things that were nowhere near genius. Spending over £100 million is not 'genius'. And no disrespect to Jose or any other manager, but when you spend you win. You can't argue against that.

This sort of nonsensical logic comes up in a lot of arguments on here. For example, if you don't think Sturridge is a great player, then you must be a 'Torres fanboy'. If you don't think Mourinho is a genius, then you must be a 'Mourinho hater'.

Dismissing Jose? I suggest you go back & read a few pages including this one because I must be reading something completely different then? Please read my posts again I'm not going over the same old......again - I've more than explained it several times & now feel like a parrot!

As for your 'nonsensical logic' I have no problem that peoples opinions differ as have Toronto's & mine, its being hypocritical & ignorant to form a basis of the argument that gets me vexed, not whether person A thinks a manager is a genius but person B does not. You see I'm all for a good debate & there are some very decent members on here that can hold a candle but some point blankly refuse to see both sides which is what I have done & you would of noticed that if you had given my posts a little more attention.

[Tomo 21,751]

but when you spend you win. You can't argue against that.

[Tomo 21,751]

@GodZola, is right. Ranieri made some astute signing's and i have nothing but appreciation for some of the contributions he made during his time here, but to even remotely credit him for Jose's success is a joke. The same as Rijkaard somehow gets credit for Pep's Barca success.

Jose got some of Ranieri's signing's playing to a level the tinkerman could never do. Jose got us playing with such confidence and assurance i have never seen before and haven't since, with Ranieri we were always on the receiving end of a few upset's every season even in his year under Abramovic, how many shock defeats did we fall victim to under Jose? probably one which was the 3-0 loss at Boro.

Money helps, but any one who thinks any half decent manger could have walzed in Kings Road in June 2004 and had similar success are off their rocker.

[Corner 456]

Obviously two exceptions.

Are you disagreeing with the statement 'when you spend, you win?' I don't see how anyone can disagree. Obviously, I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win, but it will certainly help A LOT.

[Corner 456]

@GodZola, is right. Ranieri made some astute signing's and i have nothing but appreciation for some of the contributions he made during his time here, but to even remotely credit him for Jose's success is a joke. The same as Rijkaard somehow gets credit for Pep's Barca success.

Jose got some of Ranieri's signing's playing to a level the tinkerman could never do. Jose got us playing with such confidence and assurance i have never seen before and haven't since, with Ranieri we were always on the receiving end of a few upset's every season even in his year under Abramovic, how many shock defeats did we fall victim to under Jose? probably one which was the 3-0 loss at Boro.

Money helps, but any one who thinks any half decent manger could have walzed in Kings Road in June 2004 and had similar success are off their rocker.

Ignore my last post, didn't see you say that when I posted it. But I never suggested that any manager could just walk in and do what José did.

[Tomo 21,751]

Obviously two exceptions.

Are you disagreeing with the statement 'when you spend, you win?' I don't see how anyone can disagree. Obviously, I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win, but it will certainly help A LOT.

It helps ofcourse, but as i just said in my last post anyone who thinks any half decent manager could have done what Jose said with similar or even more money are sadly mistaken.

Money is a small part of it, infact having money could work against manager's if they don't apply them self's properly.

EDIT: just saw your latest post, i know you didn't say it i was just referring to the general concensus.

[Corner 456]

Dismissing Jose? I suggest you go back & read a few pages including this one because I must be reading something completely different then? Please read my posts again I'm not going over the same old......again - I've more than explained it several times & now feel like a parrot!

As for your 'nonsensical logic' I have no problem that peoples opinions differ as have Toronto's & mine, its being hypocritical & ignorant to form a basis of the argument that gets me vexed, not whether person A thinks a manager is a genius but person B does not. You see I'm all for a good debate & there are some very decent members on here that can hold a candle but some point blankly refuse to see both sides which is what I have done & you would of noticed that if you had given my posts a little more attention.

I'm not ignoring the points you have to make, I just have nothing to say to them. It's not a debate I'm particularly interested in to be honest.

I just took your reply to Toronto as judgemental. You seemed to judge him and generalize him with other fans, which never makes sense because everyone has different opinions (which is why I try not to generalize and listen to everyone).

[Muzchap 8,966]

I concur with him partly about expenditure & have already stated that a healthy budget will aid a managers chance of success but not all & Ranieri, Mark Hughes & even RDM this season are proof of this to name but a few.

Apologies but I get a little vexed when people are hypocritical & ignorant - he 'bigs up' Ranieri despite him spending a fortune & wins nothing but totally discredits Jose achievements for him actually winning trophies, breaking records & being our most successful manager ever all cus he had a 'nice wad' to spend - the irony is, he doesn't get the bit that Ranieri spent a 'large wad' too or that Jose was successful at Porto spending nothing, you do the maths fella & try & get it through to him cus I'm done....

These petty discussions I was having with bitter Arsenal, Utd & Liverpool fans on other forums a few years ago, I don't expect it from our own but nothing surprises me with fans of today.

Happy Xmas to you fella anyway.

Happy Xmas too mate

I understand - but sometimes people have their own agenda and as much as you spell it out they won't listen

Happen to agree with everything you said

[GodZola 630]

@GodZola, is right. Ranieri made some astute signing's and i have nothing but appreciation for some of the contributions he made during his time here, but to even remotely credit him for Jose's success is a joke. The same as Rijkaard somehow gets credit for Pep's Barca success.

Jose got some of Ranieri's signing's playing to a level the tinkerman could never do. Jose got us playing with such confidence and assurance i have never seen before and haven't since, with Ranieri we were always on the receiving end of a few upset's every season even in his year under Abramovic, how many shock defeats did we fall victim to under Jose? probably one which was the 3-0 loss at Boro.

Money helps, but any one who thinks any half decent manger could have walzed in Kings Road in June 2004 and had similar success are off their rocker.

Like you stated in a previous post Tomo, taking on & beating the 'untouchables' was a tremendous achievement this in his first season which was incredibly surpassed the following one! Jose is obviously not to everybody's taste but for me there is no one better & the irony is I don't think he would need a big budget to get us back to being champions again.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

It helps ofcourse, but as i just said in my last post anyone who thinks any half decent manager could have done what Jose said with similar or even more money are sadly mistaken.

Money is a small part of it, infact having money could work against manager's if they don't apply them self's properly.

That's nonsense and you are ignoring fact! Money is the single most important factor in winning.This is not even debatable You can actually look at winning clubs and what allows them to win and what they have in common in a scientific way. What they have in common, is money. Calling it a "small part" is ridiculous. The highest spending teams in England are right now 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 8th in the table. The highest spending club in Germany is 1st. The highest spending clubs in Spain are #1 and #2. The highest spending club in Italy is #1. The highest spending club in Portugal is #1. The highest spending team in France is #1. etc...This is not some theoretical subject where we can say "who knows what allows clubs to win". We know why clubs win. Clubs win because they spend money. Yes, there will be blips over the course of a year or two. Smaller spending teams can win and bigger spending teams can lose, but it always be a blip. Reading will never win the Premier League because they don't spend, not because they have a poor manager.

To me, this is like the Republican argument in the US when they say "people are rich because they work hard" when you can clearly see, again, factually, that people are usually rich because they are born to rich families. We have hard data and I don't know how people can argue against that with theoreticals. (and yes, the link between spending and winning is fact) but the myth of "the great manager" will be a hard one to kill.

[Tomo 21,751]

Like you stated in a previous post Tomo, taking on & beating the 'untouchables' was a tremendous achievement this in his first season which was incredibly surpassed the following one!

What makes it even better is i actually thought Arsenal were better that season then they were in their unbeaten season, atleast in an attacking sense.

Strange as it sound's during their unbeaten season they were drawing a lot and winning by 1-2 goals, infact apart from when they beat Leeds 5-0 and Inter 5-1, did they thrash any one out of sight that term?

I remember the start of the 04/05 season they beat Everton 4-1 , Norwich by the same score Charlton 4-0. They devoured teams like Birmingham and Fulham at Highbury who in the unbeaten campaign drew at the same ground. It looked like they got even better and after 9 games were 5 points and 20 goals ahead of us.

[Tomo 21,751]

That's nonsense and you are ignoring fact! Money is the single most important factor in winning.This is not even debatable You can actually look at winning clubs and what allows them to win and what they have in common in a scientific way. What they have in common, is money. Calling it a "small part" is ridiculous. The highest spending teams in England are right now 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 8th in the table. The highest spending club in Germany is 1st. The highest spending clubs in Spain are #1 and #2. The highest spending club in Italy is #1. The highest spending club in Portugal is #1. The highest spending team in France is #1. etc...This is not some theoretical subject where we can say "who knows what allows clubs to win". We know why clubs win. Clubs win because they spend money. Yes, there will be blips over the course of a year or two. Smaller spending teams can win and bigger spending teams can lose, but it always be a blip. Reading will never win the Premier League because they don't spend, not because they have a poor manager.

To me, this is like the Republican argument in the US when they say "people are rich because they work hard" when you can clearly see, again, factually, that people are usually rich because they are born to rich families. We have hard data and I don't know how people can argue against that with theoreticals. (and yes, the link between spending and winning is fact) but the myth of "the great manager" will be a hard one to kill.

So if we look at it that way does any title winning manager deserve credit?

Does Fergie deserve any credit for his 90's dominance because he spent most of that decade leaching off his rivals best players and signing them, he got up to those old tricks this summer aswell. Is it an achievement Fergie beating Arsenal when he plays Van Persie or is it minimum requirement?

As i said money does help a lot but you need to do so much more. Need to get the team playing for you, actually spend the money on the right players (which is where the 2 men i pictured in the last page fell short in), have some form of talent (could Iain Dowie win the league with unlimited cash?).

If we are going to value manager's purely on a money to result's ratio then the best manager in the world is probably Paul Tidsdale for Exeter, he assembled a squad up to league 1 where all the squad bar one player was assembled for nothing.

[GodZola 630]

I'm not ignoring the points you have to make, I just have nothing to say to them. It's not a debate I'm particularly interested in to be honest.

I just took your reply to Toronto as judgemental. You seemed to judge him and generalize him with other fans, which never makes sense because everyone has different opinions (which is why I try not to generalize and listen to everyone).

He can fight his own corner (excuse the pun lol)

Look, perhaps my words were a little OTT but I used them merely in the disagreement of this discussion, I have no doubt I will prob agree with Toronto in many other topics so please don't get confused that I'm judging his personality on one single debate only. I've always been honest on here & will say how I see it, trust me if there is another debate in here & I agree with Toronto I will be by his side as you are, I'm on nobodys side, thing is I don't get on here much to enter discussions.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

So if we look at it that way does any title winning manager deserve credit?

Does Fergie deserve any credit for his 90's dominance because he spent most of that decade leaching off his rivals best players and signing them, he got up to those old tricks this summer aswell. Is it an achievement Fergie beating Arsenal when he plays Van Persie or is it minimum requirement?

As i said money does help a lot but you need to do so much more. Need to get the team playing for you, actually spend the money on the right players (which is where the 2 men i pictured in the last page fell short in), have some form of talent (could Iain Dowie win the league with unlimited cash?).

If we are going to value manager's purely on a money to result's ratio then the best manager in the world is probably Paul Tidsdale for Exeter, he assembled a squad up to league 1 where all the squad bar one player was assembled for nothing.

They deserve some credit because they have to hold a team together and not screw up. What AVB did last year was the example of how a manager can screw up by simply not communicating his message properly and losing his players. Managers are not useless. Hiring a manager that is respected by players is important so they will listen to him. and because he will install certain tactics that will work with the players you have. (In this, Pep would be a much better choice than Mourinho for the team we're building). But managers make 5-10% of the difference. You might get a few more points with the right guy, but no manager is going to make a mediocre team great. If managers made an enormous difference, you'd see a manager go into a side, that side suddenly massively improve without spending any more money than usual (or getting some new star come through the youth system), and then when that manager leaves, the side gets suddenly worse and stays that way. That just doesn't happen. Managerial stability is important because it gives the manager more say and players have to behave. SAF can control ManU because the players all know that he's in charge. There is value in that.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

He can fight his own corner (excuse the pun lol)

Look, perhaps my words were a little OTT but I used them merely in the disagreement of this discussion, I have no doubt I will prob agree with Toronto in many other topics so please don't get confused that I'm judging his personality on one single debate only. I've always been honest on here & will say how I see it, trust me if there is another debate in here & I agree with Toronto I will be by his side as you are, I'm on nobodys side, thing is I don't get on here much to enter discussions.

I don't have a problem with debating. I enjoy it and I think it's what makes boards good. (I've been on some where everyone has to agree on every topic on every evaluation of every player, it becomes fascistic and uninteresting).

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Obviously two exceptions.

Are you disagreeing with the statement 'when you spend, you win?' I don't see how anyone can disagree. Obviously, I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win, but it will certainly help A LOT.

Let me put it this way: In today's game, you can't win without spending and spending big, but only a great manager can spend big, change more than half the team and win. It takes a special set of managerial talents, even if you have all the money in the world, to get the right players that would fit into your team and then create chemistry in your team.

Those 2 are not exceptions, look at Carlo who despite being a great manager, practically has all the money in the world and is still failing at PSG ( I know that they are top but with the squad he has compared to the other team, I consider it a failure to not be at least 8-10 points clear at the top by now )

[Corner 456]

Let me put it this way: In today's game, you can't win without spending and spending big, but only a great manager can spend big, change more than half the team and win. It takes a special set of managerial talents, even if you have all the money in the world, to get the right players that would fit into your team and then create chemistry in your team.

Those 2 are not exceptions, look at Carlo who despite being a great manager, practically has all the money in the world and is still failing at PSG ( I know that they are top but with the squad he has compared to the other team, I consider it a failure to not be at least 8-10 points clear at the top by now )

I know mate. That's why I said 'I'm not suggesting spending alone will make you win'.