The Mourinho Thread

[Rmpr 8,977]

You have to remember that City were in a very different place from us when they get their sugar daddy. We were in 4th place and in a Premier League where spending 10M pounds on a player was a significant buy. When their Sheik took over, Man City were a mid-table team and their insane spending just didn't improve the team the way ours could. It was always going to take them longer but even then, it was only 3 years. City are going to be a force in England and in Europe in the very near future because they have the money.

Yes, we were in a better position and we could build a sqaud with a lot less money. However, ManCity has already spent 1billion in 4 years, should have been enough for a super squad. Yet, they still couldnt do anything spetacular.

If we compare the buying power we had and they have, it would be the pratically the same. Chelsea in 4 years was way better than Mancity now, so it is not solely money that brings it all.

All I am trying to say is that Mourinho has a good portion of our success (and so has everything else). It is not only Ranieri, Roman and Fans...

[GodZola 630]

It depends how you define success. He was very good at Roma, he took Juventus from Seria B to third place...but he really was not in very many good situations. This is really my point about managers.How many clubs would you deem to have had success in the last decade? Maybe about 10-15. If you weren't lucky enough to get a job on one of those clubs, you simply weren't going to have sustained success. It remains exactly the same. This is what makes Mourinho so smart in how he chooses his jobs. He only goes to clubs where he knows he has a very good chance of having success and only stays a few years. That's why I think City makes so much sense for him. They are a team that's going to have success over the next few years regardless of who their manager is.

It's possible he could end up at City but their owners are not so trigger happy as Roman? It is not about Jose being smart its about him being successful any person in everyday life who is successful in their role will be 'headhunted' & therefore more choice is given to them, Jose has earned that right through his achievements, just look at Inter, under Mancini they were successful domestically but got nowhere near winning the CL til Jose came in & bought a few players, made his stamp on the team & they then do the treble. Jose didn't have money at Porto but was still successful, you can't knock him just because he chooses to go where he wants & if that means he has money to spend then he still has to use it wisely & make that team successful.

I guess we will just have to wait & see how he gets in when he finally goes into international management! Although the fact is he has been successful without money...........

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

It's possible he could end up at City but their owners are not so trigger happy as Roman? It is not about Jose being smart its about him being successful any person in everyday life who is successful in their role will be 'headhunted' & therefore more choice is given to them, Jose has earned that right through his achievements, just look at Inter, under Mancini they were successful domestically but got nowhere near winning the CL til Jose came in & bought a few players, made his stamp on the team & they then do the treble. Jose didn't have money at Porto but was still successful, you can't knock him just because he chooses to go where he wants & if that means he has money to spend then he still has to use it wisely & make that team successful.

U guess we will just have to wait & see how he gets in when he finally goes into international management!

That's absolutely not what happened at Inter. I work with a die-hard Inter fan and we were talking about this last week. The first year, Inter let Mourinho sign who he wanted and it was an absolute disaster. He bought three players and they all sucked. Inter still won the league as they had the previous four seasons because they were a dominant squad. The next year, the board made the transfers and brought in Milito, E'to, Lucio, Motta, and Sneijder which is was incredible business and is what made the difference. And Inter is exactly what I'm talking about. They had won the league four years in a row before Mourinho got there. It's not like he had to go to a mid-table side and win. I'm not knocking him for going where he wants. I'd do the same. I'm knocking the people that pretend that managers make a massive difference..The people that think that new manager would come in and we'd suddenly solve our problems. Our two most successful managers in Europe were Grant and RDM neither of whom had any experience at a top club or were well-regarded as coaches.

Have a look at this article. It explains pretty much how I feel about managers.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/82601a98-837a-11de-a24e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Ft744jM1

[Rmpr 8,977]

Have a look at this article. It explains pretty much how I feel about managers.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/82601a98-837a-11de-a24e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Ft744jM1

That guy clearly hasnt ever played in a football team...

What I am trying to say, ManCity is a team like he said (players, money, patience, infrastructure, etc) and look how stupid they look on the field because of their brilliant manager.

Everyone has its value, managers included. I do agree we should stop making them the reason of success, but they are very important indeed.

P.S: I know who he is, respect the man and I agree with most of his articles in The Observer, but there are some apsects of the game that only who played it understand.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

That guy clearly hasnt ever played in a football team...

What I am trying to say, ManCity is a team like he said (players, money, patience, infrastructure, etc) and look how stupid they look on the field because of their brilliant manager.

Everyone has its value, managers included. I do agree we should stop making them the reason of success, but they are very important indeed.

I don't think they are particularly important. I think it's more about people liking a narrative. Man City is going to win a bunch of things in the foreseeable future. If it's still Mancini there, people will talk about the importance of stability. If they bring someone else in, they'll talk about how Mancini couldn't deliver and they needed Mr. X. in order to take them further. It's similar with Chelsea. We'll start to win things again in the next couple of years because we've spent too much money and have too much talent not to and whoever our manager is when we do will get the credit. As long as the manager can communicate, can handle egos, and has the respect of players, I don't really care about anything else and I don't think it matters. (It's like CEOs in most companies. The stock goes up, everyone loves them, stock goes down, they want them fired even if the stock fluctuation was almost certainly due to circumstances they had no control over.)

[Rmpr 8,977]

I don't think they are particularly important. I think it's more about people liking a narrative. Man City is going to win a bunch of things in the foreseeable future. If it's still Mancini there, people will talk about the importance of stability. If they bring someone else in, they'll talk about how Mancini couldn't deliver and they needed Mr. X. in order to take them further. It's similar with Chelsea. We'll start to win things again in the next couple of years because we've spent too much money and have too much talent not to and whoever our manager is when we do will get the credit. As long as the manager can communicate, can handle egos, and has the respect of players, I don't really care about anything else and I don't think it matters. (It's like CEOs in most companies. The stock goes up, everyone loves them, stock goes down, they want them fired even if the stock fluctuation was almost certainly due to circumstances they had no control over.)

Mate, I never said the managers or CEOs are the reason for everything good or bad.

What I am saying is that they do make a difference. Yes, ManCity or a Company with the right investments will succeed no matter who is incharge, but with a great staff, they go further. Lets just look at some tech companies: Microsoft without Gates, Apple without Jobs, etc.

Same applies for Football Clubs, the coaching staff is very important (not only the manager). I recognise we grossly overpay for the managers, but top one is necessary.

[GodZola 630]

That's absolutely not what happened at Inter. I work with a die-hard Inter fan and we were talking about this last week. The first year, Inter let Mourinho sign who he wanted and it was an absolute disaster. He bought three players and they all sucked. Inter still won the league as they had the previous four seasons because they were a dominant squad. The next year, the board made the transfers and brought in Milito, E'to, Lucio, Motta, and Sneijder which is was incredible business and is what made the difference. And Inter is exactly what I'm talking about. They had won the league four years in a row before Mourinho got there. It's not like he had to go to a mid-table side and win. I'm not knocking him for going where he wants. I'd do the same. I'm knocking the people that pretend that managers make a massive difference..The people that think that new manager would come in and we'd suddenly solve our problems. Our two most successful managers in Europe were Grant and RDM neither of whom had any experience at a top club or were well-regarded as coaches.

Have a look at this article. It explains pretty much how I feel about managers.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/82601a98-837a-11de-a24e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Ft744jM1

Sorry mate but I wholeheartedly disagree with you, the right manager is absolutely fundamental to a teams success & you can dress up or try to knock down Jose achievements in anyway you want but the simple facts are he is the most successful manager in the last decade.

Yes RDM & Grant were more successful in Europe but it was Jose signing that won us that trophy & what did their sides do in the Prem? Just look at bacon face, Utd were nothing before he took over & he gas built an empire there after year on year success, that's because Utd got the right man in charge not some half wit!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Mate, I never said the managers or CEOs are the reason for everything good or bad.

What I am saying is that they do make a difference. Yes, ManCity or a Company with the right investments will succeed no matter who is incharge, but with a great staff, they go further. Lets just look at some tech companies: Microsoft without Gates, Apple without Jobs, etc.

Those are different. Those people founded those companies (and invented the products), they were not managers. I think managers do make a difference, but it's very slight.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Those are different. Those people founded those companies (and invented the products), they were not managers. I think managers do make a difference, but it's very slight.

LOL

I am writing on the mobile skin, so I usually edit after posting. Give me sometime!

We wont reach a common sense, so I will keep rating the managers and you wont. Agree to disagree.

Lets concentrate on Chelsea vs Villa...

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Sorry mate but I wholeheartedly disagree with you, the right manager is absolutely fundamental to a teams success & you can dress up or try to knock down Jose achievements in anyway you want but the simple facts are he is the most successful manager in the last decade.

Yes RDM & Grant were more successful in Europe but it was Jose signing that won us that trophy & what did their sides do in the Prem? Just look at bacon face, Utd were nothing before he took over & he gas built an empire there after year on year success, that's because Utd got the right man in charge not some half wit!

Of course Jose is one of the most successful managers of the decade. He spent the decade at Chelsea, Inter Milan, and Real Madrid. The AVERAGE net transfer of his clubs when he was with them is around 85M pounds a year. Average. So, he went to teams that were in second place, first place, and second place in their leagues, spent more on average every year than any individual club spends a season on average and he won with them and you think it's because of his genius? What do you think would happen if Arsenal hired a new manager and spent 80M in the transfer market next year? What if Everton hired a new manager and spent 150M pounds? They'd do very well not because the new manager is some sort of genius, but because spending money=winning..

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

LOL

I am writing on the mobile skin, so I usually edit after posting. Give me sometime!

We wont reach a common sense, so I will keep rating the managers and you wont. Agree to disagree.

Lets concentrate on Chelsea vs Villa...

Agreed...have to go make a coffee and settle in for the match.

[GodZola 630]

Of course Jose is one of the most successful managers of the decade. He spent the decade at Chelsea, Inter Milan, and Real Madrid. The AVERAGE net transfer of his clubs when he was with them is around 85M pounds a year. Average. So, he went to teams that were in second place, first place, and second place in their leagues, spent more on average every year than any individual club spends a season on average and he won with them and you think it's because of his genius? What do you think would happen if Arsenal hired a new manager and spent 80M in the transfer market next year? What if Everton hired a new manager and spent 150M pounds? They'd do very well not because the new manager is some sort of genius, but because spending money=winning..

You are trying to disrespect jose's achievements by using expenditure or excessive use of, but fail to recognise that he made Porto into European champions spending next to nothing?! Arsenal have spent 40 odd million this season & are still nowhere near a challenge for the title, Jose would improve them without spending 80m!

I can never understand why are own fans try to discredit Jose after his successful tenure at our club - it is simply mind numbing!

[Tomo 21,751]

Of course Jose is one of the most successful managers of the decade. He spent the decade at Chelsea, Inter Milan, and Real Madrid. The AVERAGE net transfer of his clubs when he was with them is around 85M pounds a year. Average. So, he went to teams that were in second place, first place, and second place in their leagues, spent more on average every year than any individual club spends a season on average and he won with them and you think it's because of his genius? What do you think would happen if Arsenal hired a new manager and spent 80M in the transfer market next year? What if Everton hired a new manager and spent 150M pounds? They'd do very well not because the new manager is some sort of genius, but because spending money=winning..

Mark Hughes had shit loads to spend yet couldn't get City in the top 6 before he was sacked. Money helps but it should never devalue what Jose did, other manager's have had that type of money and failed, Dalglish the latest of the long list of example's.

At Porto he took over the team when they were 5th and in dissaray i think, recovered the season got them 3rd, the next two season's we know what happened.

He also showed at Uniao de Leiria that he can do mid table miracle work if need be.

Chelsea he took over in 2004, Arsenal just completed a season unbeaten and were threatening to dominate English football, no one gave Jose a chance of beating that great team but he done it with ease. He also gave us confidence and assurance we never had before, we went to Highbury in 2005 and thrashed Arsenal like never before, ground that was giving us nightmares for years.

inter, rubbish in Europe for years Jose comes in and wins it within 2 all with a negative net spend, enough said.

Real, he beats to the title the team widely regarded by many as one of the greatest teams off all time and beats them in their own ground to boot. Real don't get past R2 in the CL for nearly a decade until he came along.

There is more to Mourinho than just money.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

You are trying to disrespect jose's achievements by using expenditure or excessive use of, but fail to recognise that he made Porto into European champions spending next to nothing?! Arsenal have spent 40 odd million this season & are still nowhere near a challenge for the title, Jose would improve them without spending 80m!

I can never understand why are own fans try to discredit Jose after his successful tenure at our club - it is simply mind numbing!

First of all Arsenal sold their best player and maybe their second best as well so they actually made money this offseason. I am not trying to discredit Mourinho in particular, but rather the notion of the brilliant manager that makes all the difference in the world. If Mourinho goes to a bad team and wins, I'll change my tune, but it won't happen (he wouldn't go to a bad team and if he did, he wouldn't win). I have never seen any evidence that managers make any difference long-term. The teams that win consistently are the teams that spend money. You can get lucky for one year and almost every year there is a team in each league that overachieves (Newcastle last season, WBA so far this year) but those teams can never sustain their success for more than a couple of years. The correlation between money spent and winning is 92%. In the past 10 years, the top 4 spending clubs have been City, Chelsea, Liverpool, and United. Of the possible 30 top-3 finishes, those teams have finished in the top 30, 23 times. If you count this year instead of 10 years ago, it's be 25 of the 30 places. In the last five years, Barcelona and Real Madrid 170K and 275K pounds respectively on transfers Only one other team has spent more than 11K pounds in that period in La Liga and that's Malaga who spent a relatively paltry 50K. Of the 10 first and second spots in the last 5 years, Barcelona and Real Madrid fill 9 of them (Barcelona was third one year). Bayern Munich has spent more than double any other Bundesliga club over the past five years. They've finished first twice in that period, second twice, third once, and are well on their way to winning again this season.The highest spending club in Italy? Juventus...in first place a year after winning Seria A. This is not theory. This is fact. How do you not see the causation? The formula is spending money=winning. The manager is almost irrelevant. But sports fans love narrative so the myth of the manager will live on.

[Jase 43,479]

João Ruela ‏@joao_ruela

Mourinho in Portugal for Xmas holidays: "The first thing I'll do when I get home? I'll watch Chelsea against Aston Villa."

[DYC. 7,542]

Agree. PSG are a slight mess at the moment and could do with him. Plus he's conquered England, Spain & Italy. France or Germany would be logical, though Bayern's not a bad shout either.

Also agree about 'other managers' and I hope that's not limited to Guardiola. There are many potential diamonds in the rough in terms of football management, how brilliant would it be if we found our own Guardiola or Mourinho - Someone no-one's really heard of to an extent, but has plenty of potential to be world class. AVB had that potential and it didn't work, doesn't mean the club should stop trying.

What's your opinion on Luciano Spalletti?

I don't think the people currently in charge at Bayern will ever want a controversial manager again after Van Gaal haha.

Think Spalletti did a excellent job at Roma. He built a good team with limited funds. Also played good and attractive football with his Roma team. I remember us having a very hard time against him back in 08/09 I think. We even lost in the away match.

He also showed he's innovative as he was the first to play a real '4-6-0' formation.

Can't say I'm convinced he'd do a good job here but it would be a risk worth taking imo. Don't see it happening though.

[Tomo 21,751]

I've always felt really sorry for Ranieri. He was really the one that nurtured Lampard and Terry. Lampard was runner up to FWA player of the year before Mourinho arrived. It was Ranieri that first brought Terry into the side and first made him captain (when Desailly didn't play). It was Ranieri who was responsible for buying J. Cole, Cech, Robben, Makalele, and Gallas. I have no doubt that we would have won under Renieri as well (we got better every year under him) but he wasn't Roman's guy so he never got to see the benefit of Cech, Robben, Carvalho, Drogba, and Ferreira. I just can never understand why we think of the teams as Mourinho's when the core was almost all from before he arrived. Of the most common starting XI when we first won the league, only the Portuguese players were Mourinho's buys. He had the personality to manage the side which is no small feat, but we've won because of Roman's money not because of genius managers.

Ranieri did well building a team but he had absolutely nothing to do with the success we had under Jose beyond that. The same way Jose had nothing to do with the double despite most of those players playing under him.

You could say Ranieri nurtured Lamps and JT, well he did, he got them in the team but Jose took them up an extra level.

[GodZola 630]

Ranieri did well building a team but he had absolutely nothing to do with the success we had under Jose beyond that. The same way Jose had nothing to do with the double despite most of those players playing under him.

You could say Ranieri nurtured Lamps and JT, well he did, he got them in the team but Jose took them up an extra level.

You have got to admire this lads defence but its transparently clear that his problem is with Jose & not about expenditure. He 'feels sorry' for Ranieri for spending 110m & comes second & wins nothing, yet Jose spends less & wins all but everything & sets us up for years to come but he is 'no genius'!!!

Obviously a generous budget helps but you fundamentally have to have a manager who can buy the right players, integrate, motivate & establish them & prob most of all give them the confidence & self belief to win trophies as well as creating a team & unified spirit throughout the squad.

Argh well we will just do without managers then, seems its just a good cheque book that we need & its job done!!!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

You have got to admire this lads defence but its transparently clear that his problem is with Jose & not about expenditure. He 'feels sorry' for Ranieri for spending 110m & comes second & wins nothing, yet Jose spends less & wins all but everything & sets us up for years to come but he is 'no genius'!!!

Obviously a generous budget helps but you fundamentally have to have a manager who can buy the right players, integrate, motivate & establish them & prob most of all give them the confidence & self belief to win trophies as well as creating a team & unified spirit throughout the squad.

Argh well we will just do without managers then, seems its just a good cheque book that we need & its job done!!!

That's just nonsense. When Roman first came in and spent 150M, Ranieri took us from 4th to second, from the first round of the UEFA Cup to the Champions League semi-final. That's nothing, but Mourinho coming in on the backs of a much better spent 139M pounds taking us from second place to first? That's genius? A generous budget doesn't help, it makes you win. We improved every year under Ranieri. We got worse every year under Mourinho. You look at the teams we had and what our competition was in the league in and in Europe, what should we have won? We had 6 or 7 world-class players. We won exactly what you'd expect us to win. No less.

[GodZola 630]

That's just nonsense. When Roman first came in and spent 150M, Ranieri took us from 4th to second, from the first round of the UEFA Cup to the Champions League semi-final. That's nothing, but Mourinho coming in on the backs of a much better spent 139M pounds taking us from second place to first? That's genius? A generous budget doesn't help, it makes you win. We improved every year under Ranieri. We got worse every year under Mourinho. You look at the teams we had and what our competition was in the league in and in Europe, what should we have won? We had 6 or 7 world-class players. We won exactly what you'd expect us to win. No less.

You are the absolute epitome of why I rarely post on here - no matter what or how hard you try to be unbiased in a 'discussion' your kind always come back with some bullshit or stat or 'my mate' bollocks that trys to justify your argument!

Ranieri spent over a 100m to get second - wow! Jose spent 90m on Drogba, Carvalho, Feirarra & Tiago also a couple of others in his first 'double trophy season' then brought in Essien & a few others spending significantly less & oh won back to back Prems - yeah only bacon face has done that feat?! The third season he has the likes of Shevchenko forced upon him, spent less & sold more, we had an horrendous injury list including the best goalkeeper on the planet at the time & a very good back up injured in the same game, yet we still gave Utd one hell of a fight & let's not forget we won 2 cups that year........

You keep coming up with your useless stats of putting Jose achievements as nothing more than a good chequebook & I will continue to give you the truth of how things were - I see you conveniently forget the injuries we had in 06/07 but seem to fathom that we got worse year on year of Jose tenure, not sure how that was when we won back to back Prems & the second year we broke record after record?!!!!!!!

You just go back to your little Ranieri world of winning fuckall, spending more & continue to dismiss Jose achievements with ignorance & arrogance & I will go back to my own discussions with real football people that don't post on this site.

I would respect you more if just came & said you can't stand Jose, pfft...........