Why Are We Playing 4-2-3-1?

[communicate 2,703]

Of course it was, Lampard-Ramires was asking for trouble, though i must admit i did think Lampard would do a much better job coming back and returning. Of course i was wrong about him, I think two new players is needed for DM positions.

I have been saying this so many times Lampard-Ramires does not work because both of them are better playing higher, It should be either mikel/romeu - ramires/lampard

We definitely need a midfielder, not sure about tiote though I much prefer getting a more creative central midfielder

[manpe 10,855]

I was gonna do the exact same thing, but as you already did it, I'll just quote you.

[communicate 2,703]

I'm just not sure why we are continuing to play this formation when it is clear we do not have the players for it.

I remember when AVB was absolutely determined to play 4-3-3, even though we did not have the players for it. He was trying to fit our players into his system, instead of fitting a system around the players we had. His stubbornness, refusal to play the old guard and persistence on playing Mata on the LW saw him lose his job. As soon as RDM came in, he changed it to 4-2-3-1 to basically pack the midfield to make up for the lack of quality we had there.

I'm unsure as to why we continued to play it in this campaign with the players we had and now it seems like a little bit of history repeating; trying to fit players into a system that does not suit them. The main thing for me is the stupid pivot. Fact is, we have no quality defensive-midfielders (Mikel fanboys can rant and rave all they like, I've always believed that there are other players that can do what Mikel does, except they can run and/or pass - see Tiote/Cabaye. Also, Romeu/Josh/Cahlobah are not ready yet). Couple this with no decent striker, which cannot be helped by changing formation I'll admit, makes the 4-2-3-1 pointless. Seriously, how can this formation be used when the pivot and the striker cannot fulfill their duties? It leads to a disconnect and lack of organisation between defense and midfield, along with a blunt attack.

Now i'll admit I'm not a tactical expert, but for me, I'd like to see something along the lines of a 4-3-2-1, 4-1-2-1-2 (January permitting another striker/s) or 4-3-3. Personally, I'd prefer to see a 4-3-2-1 like this:

Cech

Azip - JT - Luiz - Cole

Mikel

Oscar Ramires

Hazard - Mata

Torres

Ideally I'd have a better defensive-mid in there instead of Mikel. Ramires is best as a CM, no one can fault his work-rate there, but asking him to sit back in as a DM is shackling his strengths and it's is not working for him there at all. Oscar has a great work rate too. However, Mata & Hazard don't really, so they wouldn't have as much responsibility with 3 behind them instead of the 2. They can also be pushed out wide if we want a 4-3-3, which also accommodates Moses/Marin. And, of course, I'd have anyone except Torres leading the attack.

But mainly for me, having one DM, two CMs and two AM/Wingers also allows us to fully rotate and utilize all of our squad, giving multiple combinations instead of relying on just DMs and AMs:

DM = Mikel/Romeu/Josh/Cahlobah

CM = Ramires/Oscar/Josh/KDB/Cahlobah/Lamps (if he's still here)

AM = Mata/Hazard/Oscar/KDB/Moses/Marin

What do you guys think? Am I talking nonsense? What formation would you like to see?

(Sorry for the rant )

Not going to protect AVB here, but we have been playing 4-2-3-1 under AVB for a couple months before he was fired. I think he said he did that because we kept conceding goal from the left because mata was just awful defensively so mata was moved to the center. The difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 is very little. It bore down on your personell, if you play 2 cm you will play 4-3-3 but if you play 1 cm and 1 am you will play 4-2-3-1

[Kojo 4,676]

To say Tiote was anywhere near Essien before his injuries is a mockery to the Bison.

This is coming from the nutjob who said Mikel is the best DM in the world.

[OneMoSalah 8,614]

This is coming from the nutjob who said Mikel is the best DM in the world.

Said hes one of the best, not the best. Might want to get your quotes right mate.

Also your the one who insulted the Bison saying Tiote played better than him last year....

[Rmpr 8,977]

The problem is not the formation, since real life is not like FIFA and in a good team with decent tactics and movements the players actually swap positions and changes formation depending on the situation. There is no such thing as a static 433, 4231, 41212, 352, etc. It changes with possession, scoreboard and mentality. Any formation is useful and successful if they are performed by the right players and manager. My personal favorite is 4-3-3, but it wont make us any better, we need players with stong characters and a manager to make it thrive. Any formation we try we this squad will leave a flaw somewhere.

That leaves us to the real problem: players, board, owner and staff.

Players: What we have is not a team, it is a bunch of players thrown to play together. They dont complement each other in any possible way (experience, style, leadership, etc). We lack quality in some positions, leardship in others and commitment where its left. Apart from Cech (who isnt even playing well), every position need or will need some improvement. We can try to play 4-1-2-1-2, but it will just move our problems to another area of the pitch. There is no way out, the only thing we can do now is accept we have done some horrible moves and they will need to be repaired. We will lose a lot of money, but there isnt other way. RM was exactly like us, buying load of players that would never fit together and when Mourinho came, he basically bought a whole new team. I dont really think we are that bad, but we are far from good.

Board: There is no fucking hierarchy and it will kill us if nothing is done about it. Of course there is also incompetence, but the lack of a decent division of power is much worse. It is Roman Abramovich and everyone else trying to suck his cock. We dont have executives with clear roles and magnitude of power. No one reports to anyone and everyone reports to Roman. This makes comunication non existing, useless issues are taken care twice and important manners are left aside. This is insane, a high school bowling team has a better hierarchy than a giant european club. Once this is done, we can start evaluating who is capable and who needs to be replaced.

Owner: I am immensily happy with you. BUT, decide whether we are a buying team or a developer. If we are going to buy the best players, there is no need to spend loads of money in a unnecessary expensive academy and vice-versa. Also, stop being friend with the players...

Staff: Get a fucking manager, stick with him and make him in charge, trust the fucking guy for once. Let him have a say in the transfers and build up of the squad. Any good manager (with money) is able to find the players that suit his desired formation and style of play. He needs no absurd pressure and he cant be a cunt who will get booed by the fans. Ultimately, hire someone in the summer (Jose hopefully) and let him work hard and well.

So, analyse the problems and fix it, for fuck sake, stop using bandaids for CFC!

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Yeah I'm beginning to hate the formation too. I would much prefer the christmas tree or the 4-3-3.

Thing is he wont change it halfway through the season.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Because no matter what formation we put out, we have problems. 4-3-3 means that Mata and Hazard become de-emphasized by playing the wings. The narrow 4-3-3 sort that is suggested in the first post means that we have 4 players in the attack in middle of the pitch and our width has to come from our fullbacks which will mean that we would get slaughtered on the wings as they have no protection. People want to believe that changing a formation or having one player instead of another in the starting XI will magically save our season. It's the definition of theoretical management whereby your choices which will never be implemented will always result in us winning while the managers' choices when we lose are always the problem. The reality is that we simply are not good enough or deep enough to win this year and little tweaks of the lineup won't magically fix that..

[Blue Gino 377]

Great question. It's because no matter the type of player the manager has, it's the formation he is forced to play. Look at the reserves and academy. 4-2-3-1 is the formation Chelsea as a club want and no matter the short term manager the club hires that's what he has to put out there. Mereiles sold? Essien loaned out? The club don't give a sh*t, just do it! Look at Ramires, he is fast, oh wow what an engine on the lad. Can't pass to save his life and he plays in the pivot where he's supposed to link play and he has to practically run up to Hazard to give him the damn ball. Nice player, wrong formation position. Better suited to a 4-3-3. Mikel, well he's slow, doesn't make a lot of tackles or interceptions, just asked not to turn it over, but when you are this thin on defensive midfielders, he looks world class. Now to the midfield three, all three are number 10's pretty much. So they pass amongst each other "you pass it to Torres" "no YOU pass it to Torres" and so Torres is running around like a chicken with his head cut off "SOMEONE just pass it to me, oh no too late, there's three defenders on me but oh you're passing me the ball anyways and oh look it's too late to shoot or I've been dispossessed. Then Torres, c'mon Roman admit you wasted money but hey you spent that kind of dough on PAINTINGS and just move on and get another striker in January because Sturridge is not liked by you and you refuse to play him as the starter because you're afraid of the egg on your face after the Sheva fail if Torres is on the bench pouting. Does anyone honestly think this club can win any of the remaining competitions out there? I don't. No cohesion, no certainty on management. Wrong players for a formation that doesn't suit them.

[coolhead23 1,146]

I'm just not sure why we are continuing to play this formation when it is clear we do not have the players for it.

I remember when AVB was absolutely determined to play 4-3-3, even though we did not have the players for it. He was trying to fit our players into his system, instead of fitting a system around the players we had. His stubbornness, refusal to play the old guard and persistence on playing Mata on the LW saw him lose his job. As soon as RDM came in, he changed it to 4-2-3-1 to basically pack the midfield to make up for the lack of quality we had there.

I'm unsure as to why we continued to play it in this campaign with the players we had and now it seems like a little bit of history repeating; trying to fit players into a system that does not suit them. The main thing for me is the stupid pivot. Fact is, we have no quality defensive-midfielders (Mikel fanboys can rant and rave all they like, I've always believed that there are other players that can do what Mikel does, except they can run and/or pass - see Tiote/Cabaye. Also, Romeu/Josh/Cahlobah are not ready yet). Couple this with no decent striker, which cannot be helped by changing formation I'll admit, makes the 4-2-3-1 pointless. Seriously, how can this formation be used when the pivot and the striker cannot fulfill their duties? It leads to a disconnect and lack of organisation between defense and midfield, along with a blunt attack.

Now i'll admit I'm not a tactical expert, but for me, I'd like to see something along the lines of a 4-3-2-1, 4-1-2-1-2 (January permitting another striker/s) or 4-3-3. Personally, I'd prefer to see a 4-3-2-1 like this:

Cech

Azip - JT - Luiz - Cole

Mikel

Oscar Ramires

Hazard - Mata

Torres

Ideally I'd have a better defensive-mid in there instead of Mikel. Ramires is best as a CM, no one can fault his work-rate there, but asking him to sit back in as a DM is shackling his strengths and it's is not working for him there at all. Oscar has a great work rate too. However, Mata & Hazard don't really, so they wouldn't have as much responsibility with 3 behind them instead of the 2. They can also be pushed out wide if we want a 4-3-3, which also accommodates Moses/Marin. And, of course, I'd have anyone except Torres leading the attack.

But mainly for me, having one DM, two CMs and two AM/Wingers also allows us to fully rotate and utilize all of our squad, giving multiple combinations instead of relying on just DMs and AMs:

DM = Mikel/Romeu/Josh/Cahlobah

CM = Ramires/Oscar/Josh/KDB/Cahlobah/Lamps (if he's still here)

AM = Mata/Hazard/Oscar/KDB/Moses/Marin

What do you guys think? Am I talking nonsense? What formation would you like to see?

(Sorry for the rant )

We are playing 4-2-3-1 because we bought too many midfielders and missed out strikers in the transfer windows and also because while thinking we are used to a single dimensional plan ... make it works again and again, maybe it mite work some day ...

[Jase 43,479]

Because no matter what formation we put out, we have problems. 4-3-3 means that Mata and Hazard become de-emphasized by playing the wings. The narrow 4-3-3 sort that is suggested in the first post means that we have 4 players in the attack in middle of the pitch and our width has to come from our fullbacks which will mean that we would get slaughtered on the wings as they have no protection. People want to believe that changing a formation or having one player instead of another in the starting XI will magically save our season. It's the definition of theoretical management whereby your choices which will never be implemented will always result in us winning while the managers' choices when we lose are always the problem. The reality is that we simply are not good enough or deep enough to win this year and little tweaks of the lineup won't magically fix that..

And besides, players make the formation work, not the other way around. We have the players to play the 4-2-3-1 now. It's just a matter of picking the right ones and putting the right application onto the pitch.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Board: There is no fucking hierarchy and it will kill us if nothing is done about it. Of course there is also incompetence, but the lack of a decent division of power is much worse. It is Roman Abramovich and everyone else trying to suck his cock. We dont have executives with clear roles and magnitude of power. No one reports to anyone and everyone reports to Roman. This makes comunication non existing, useless issues are taken care twice and important manners are left aside. This is insane, a high school bowling team has a better hierarchy than a giant european club. Once this is done, we can start evaluating who is capable and who needs to be replaced.

I don't know what your sources are, but this is complete bollocks. People have clearly defined roles and there is a hierarchical structure in place in terms of the playing, administrative and commercial aspects of the club. You're providing analysis that implies you have a fucking clue about how the club is run - you don't. I actually know people who work at the club and the things you're saying are fucking laughable.

As for the manager situation, you're not saying anything that people at the club don't already know. They want to get a guy they can stick with long-term but NONE of the options has panned out.

Look at the AVB situation. He was given as much support as anyone could ask for, but HE lost the players. Not just the senior ones like Spurs cunts like to suggest, but literally everyone from the first team to the reserves to the youth team. Even the staff came to despise him because he's just not a good people person.

After he went, Roman had eyes for one person only - Guardiola. People think I've got some man crush on him, and as a coach i do like him. But it's what he represents to Roman that I think is most important. He's the only guy he'll give his unconditional support to. He's the only guy who could suffer through some bad results whilst implementing a new style that would get time. It's why he's so important to us. So much rests on his appointment that it is un-fucking-true.

People don't seem to realise how important the next few years is to Chelsea Football Club. People who just want to sack Rafa without having a plan C really don't seem to have the best interests for this club at heart. I'm of the belief he can get us a top-four finish and that's all he needs to do. When he was first appointed I said I didn't want his name in our record books more than it needed to and that appears to be what will happen. But we need top four and whilst he's still the guy leading us, he'll get my support.

As for 4231, part of it is down to the way Emenalo sees football and it's partly down to it being the formation de jour. It offers defensive solidiity whilst providing more attacking options if done right, whilst placing a premium on possession which minimises fatigue and maximising opposition exertion.

[Spike 12,049]

WARNING FANTASY TEAM

1. Mata is lazy as all hell on defence and always looks somewhat afraid to make challenges. He is clever enough to be a sole Number 10 (I refuse to use the term false 9).

2. Theo works hard out right, and will play essentially as a wide foward.

3. Eden works hard out left and just let him do whatever he wants.

4. César and Fabio are very dynamic fullbacks that can attack and defend all day.

5. Captain and Gazz work well together even though they are less talented than Luiz.

6. Moutinho and Lamps work hard. They can put in a tackle and pick a clever pass.

7. Busquets is the best DM in the world bar none.

Just me having a wank. Leave me alone.

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

I agree with whoever said the formation isn't as important as the players out there on the pitch and their roles in the team. From now until the end of the upcoming transfer windows, it's damage limitation as far as i'm concerned. I posted my thoughts about the christmas tree formation ages ago, and i'm still waiting to see it, but if we're insistent upon sticking with 4-2-3-1, then we need to be lining up:

Cech

Azpilicueta - Ivan - Cahill (JT when fit) - Cole

Luiz - Mikel

Moses - Mata - Hazard

Torres

This has to be our starting lineup. The midfield is seriously lacking in power and on-the-ball ability going forward (we all know this), so Luiz needs to be there, especially as Romeu is out, Lampard isn't and never has been a deep-lying player. I know he only played the role against a poor opponent, but Luiz is our best option imo. This also means he isn't at CB, which is fine with me

So Ramires is out of the team, and so is Oscar. Having Oscar in the team means Mata has to play on the wing, in which he doesn't work hard enough up and down the flanks like Hazard, who, by the way I have been very impressed with lately, we're going to have a very complete player on our hands soon, as opposed to a new 'Messi'. Anyway, Mata is so crucial to the team (unfortunately) and the fact that we rely on him so much means he has to play the no.10 role even if he is a little too weak on the ball for me.

Torres is our only true striker, and like it or not, he will be until we sign a new 'marquee' striker imo. The only way we're ever going to get some kind of form out of him, is with Mata in behind him. This means our best option for RW is Moses, who works incredibly hard, even if his end product is lacking. It may be like having a more powerful, more technical version of Ramires on the wing, but it's all we've got.

[Strike 6,961]

Henrique has pointed it out. We need a manager actually in charge of transfers etc and I believe no one other than Pep Guardiola or Jose Mourinho could walk into Chelsea and control all first team affairs under Roman's watch

Let us revaluate our objective this season and just finish top 4 regardless of what happens in Europa League, COC, FACup. Pep or Jose in the summer is A MUST to sort our team (bunch of talented individuals)

Jurgen Klopp or any other manager mentioned don't stand a chance imo. they would never get total control of first team affairs. Pep or Jose. That's all

[Deanocfc 22]

I've read a few detailed reports on what people think needs to be changed but I think 3 key things will improve the team:

1. If we aren't going to change the formation then play Lampard or Oscar in the double pivot with Mikel. Ramires is fantastic but the link between the defence and deep midfield to attack isn't working because of the lack of vision/passing ability that Rami and Mikel have. They move it on to the front three and it's like "you open up the defence", there's too much pressure on them. David Luiz looked good in this position as he threaded some balls to get behind the defenders, using the clever runs of the front three.

2. If we are going to change the formation, then I think a 4-3-3 has to happen again. I think this formation will loosen us up and we would lose the rigid, predictable look of our side in the last couple of months. Oscar/Lampard and Ramires playing off Mikel in the middle with Hazard and Mata playing off of STURRIDGE (when fit), sounds more appealing to me.

3. Sign a striker who can score goals. It's the most key thing we are missing. With Torres we are toothless and it's like playing with 10 men. You can see the lack of confidence that our attacking midfielders have in him as Mata and Hazard prefer to pass to each other than look for Torres. When Sturridge is fit I'd play him over Torres every day - he's quicker, more technical, confident and has a 'ready' attitude and body language. But we do need another striker. And right now I'd be happy with literally any other premier league striker who's playing every week.

I'd rather have a consistently good/run of the mill prem striker than a striker who shows flashes of excellence followed by hours of hopeless, infuriating crap.

I think we should seriously look at Fletcher at Sunderland, but to be honest I'd be more happy having fucking Grant Holt or Rickie Lambert wearing our number 9 shirt right now.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I was hoping for a good discussion about formations and tactics and sadly got yet another Mikel 'debate', if you can call it that. No offence to the opening post, but I stopped reading when you said Tiote is better than Mikel.

Luckily @Rmpr, managed to steer this topic back on track. Thank you!

I agree that there are very small differences between formations like 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1, 4-3-2-1...etc When you get on the pitch it's all about the players and how they move and where they like to play. The shape changes completely depending on the players and the situation.

Our current problem is not the formation. There is no formation that can magically solve all of our problems. Our problems are lack of squad depth, lack of quality in some areas (I'm looking at you Torres!), injuries and suspensions and mostly absence of team spirit since Robbie left.

[SeB 1,281]

Most of what I could have said has already been said on this page. In my opinion, in 4231 the player in the hole is crucial with and without the ball. He's the one who can make vary the shape of the team.

I did that after the Fulham game, that was the first time we saw that in a fairly regular basis in the first half