🇧🇷 Oscar

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

every goal or assist one player made in a game will influenced his rating big time on that game. You cannot separate it. It's not surprising Oscar get a high rating yesterday. Check out the player ratings on several newspaper online websites and you will see Oscar on top.

[didierforever 7,349]

boo hoo, are you mad? trololol

I won't bother checking them... that was the argument I said I wasn't part of - the stats - my only comment was about you being obnoxious - as usual - with the always so creditable sources. I stand by it. As many times as necessary.

I'll continue the discussion, not with you though... as I said, we shouldn't bother with you, it's the biggest waste of time in this forum...

as someone said the other day, three certain things in life, death, taxes and a response from you

Oh sonow its mt mistake that I responded to an idiotic , bitchy, asenine comment from someone whose iq is lesser than the room temperatire!! Well in hindsight it is.

If it was the first time u had tried to be almighty and a know it all, then I would not have said anything. But poor barbara simply can't stop being bitchy can she?

And creditable sources? I am challemging u to find if anything is wrong with these soirces. So rather than side stepping it, and then taking another pot shot at my sources, please try and prove me wrong. If u can't, why don't u just shut up, or atleast try writing anither one of yiur useless long essay like comments which more o ften than not don't have anything related to the subject at hand

[Barbara 15,149]

I agree with you. All of the things you mention are, in my opinion correct however, I meant my comparison in a direct sense. Take today's squad, include Jose as manager, add Mata to the side at the expense of Oscar and there will be a new calculation to be made. We will gain something on the swings but lose somewhat on the roundabout. Will we gain more than we loose? I would not say so.

but how the best manager in the world chose one over the other? Couldn't Jose keep Mata if he thought there would be space for him when he set up a 'better team'?

Mata never suited the style Mourinho wanted - or his plans - and never will. And that discussion has absolutely zero to do with Oscar. Oscar was the replacement Mourinho found in the squad. The moment he's not satisfied with him he'll negotiate him the same way he did with Mata and KdB. Or people think there aren't clubs that would like to have Oscar if Mourinho puts him in the sidelines?

so using the argument that we have a better manager now than we did back then and that's why Mata would do better now, when said manager concluded Mata didn't fit his present and future plans (otherwise he wouldn't have sold him) is contradictory.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

but how the best manager in the world chose one over the other? Couldn't Jose keep Mata if he thought there would be space for him when he set up a 'better team'?

Mata never suited the style Mourinho wanted - or his plans - and never will. And that discussion has absolutely zero to do with Oscar. Oscar was the replacement Mourinho found in the squad. The moment he's not satisfied with him he'll negotiate him the same way he did with Mata and KdB. Or people think there aren't clubs that would like to have Oscar if Mourinho puts him in the sidelines?

so using the argument that we have a better manager now than we did back then and that's why Mata would do better now, when said manager concluded Mata didn't fit his present and future plans (otherwise he wouldn't have sold him) is contradictory.

Thanks Barbara.

You appear to have misunderstood the point I'm making. Not surprising given that I maybe didn't express it as well as I should have done. I was saying that, despite Mata being, in my opinion, the better passer of the ball, Oscar makes a better overall contribution to our team and that therefore Jose was quite right to make that switch.

Meanwhile, I only introduced Mata to the discussion (a few posts back from the one to which you replied) as an example of the fact that passing is not the only contribution a player makes to his team. If Jose always preferred the better passer then I think he'd have kept Juan and sold Emboaba. If he did that however, he would not be the manager we all think he is. As it is Jose did what we would expect, he choose the better player, not the better passer.

I am simply arguing that out there somewhere there is a better player than Oscar. A player whose overall package of passing, pressing, and everything else will add more to our side than Oscar does. I think we should be perusing that player as a matter of urgency.* That said, I know you disagree with my assessment of Oscar but these disagreements are the essence of good conversations on a chat forum, are they not?

*As a matter of fact I think we have such a player coming through our development ranks but Charlie Colket is too young and, in any case, seems currently to be being groomed for the Cesc role not the 'ten'. Mind you development players are given chances in several roles so that a- they get the chance to find their true place and b- can gain an understanding of all the roles around them.

[Barbara 15,149]

Thanks Barbara.

You appear to have misunderstood the point I'm making. Not surprising given that I maybe didn't express it as well as I should have done. I was saying that, despite Mata being, in my opinion, the better passer of the ball, Oscar makes a better overall contribution to our team and that Jose was therefore quite right to make that switch.

Meanwhile, I only introduced Mata to the discussion (a few posts back from the one to which you replied) as an example of the fact that passing is not the only contribution a player makes to his team. If Jose always preferred the better passer then I think he'd have kept Juan and sold Emboaba. If he did that however, he would not be the manager we all think he is but he didn't do that. He choose the better player, not the better passer.

I am simply arguing that out there somewhere there is a better player than Oscar. A player whose overall package of passing, pressing, and everything else will add more to our side than Oscar does. I think we should be perusing that player as a matter of urgency.* That said, I know you disagree with me but this is the essence of good conversations on a chat forum, no?

*As a matter of fact I think we have such a player coming through our development ranks but Charlie Colket is too young and, in any case, seems currently to be being groomed for the Cesc role not the 'ten'. Mind you development players are given chances in several roles so that a) they get the chance to find their true place and can gain an understanding of all the roles around them.

I have no doubts there are better players out there than Oscar... my main point throughout this whole thing is that he's young, why can we not wait?

Willian is the one on his peak age that despite contributing with the defense has nearly zero attack return and the one we shouldn't expect much improvement from. Actually, someone should watch the last two matches closely... his energy level is slowing down - which is expected and completely acceptable as he's been running like the energyzer bunny since the season started. Yesterday Willian's defensive contributions weren't good, although I thought he looked better in the attack.

I feel we need a better RW more than we need a better CAM because when we need a better CAM than Oscar we just move Cesc higher in the pitch and problem solved. I think we also need to address a replacement for Cesc - not only for those times Mourinho decides to employ him higher, but also for when he's suspended/injured (knock the wood). I think those are more critical now than replacing Oscar as he's been delivering good return despite his problems (which I admit he has, sloppy passing at moments, carelessness at others, inconsistency, frail physique, etc). Even getting an upgrade from Cahill should be addressed before upgrading Oscar. He's renewed my hopes that he can have a big and great future here - something I was getting a bit doubtful lately given his presentations throughout December and the overall feeling of stagnation.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

You definitely don't have an agenda. You're adding in cup competitions when we're talking about League only here.

[didierforever 7,349]

You definitely don't have an agenda. You're adding in cup competitions when we're talking about League only here.

LOL. U wanted someone to do a stat comparision, I did.

The main problem with oscar is consistency, be it cup competitions or whatever. How does just counting league in this solve any purpose. Consistency is counted over the course of the season.

[lucio 5,418]

why is he being compared to ,muller.

and not people like coutinho and ramsey?

more useful than looking at muller and madrid players. who are always bound to have high stats

[Johnny Kills 164]

I have no doubts there are better players out there than Oscar... my main point throughout this whole thing is that he's young, why can't we not wait?

Willian is the one on his peak age that despite contributing with the defense has nearly zero attack return and the one we shouldn't expect much improvement from. Actually, someone should watch the last two matches closely... his energy level is slowing down - which is expected and completely acceptable as he's been running like the energyzer bunny since the season started. Yesterday Willian's defensive contributions weren't good, although I thought he looked better in the attack.

I feel we need a better RW more than we need a better CAM because when we need a better CAM than Oscar we just move Cesc higher in the pitch and problem solved. I think we also need to address a replacement for Cesc - not only for those times Mourinho decides to employ him higher, but also for when he's suspended/injured (knock the wood). I think those are more critical now than replacing Oscar as he's been delivering good return despite his problems (which I admit he has, sloppy passing at moments, carelessness at others, inconsistency, frail physique, etc). Even getting an upgrade from Cahill should be addressed before upgrading Oscar. He's renewed my hopes that he can have a big and great future here - something I was getting a bit doubtful lately given his presentations throughout December and the overall feeling of stagnation.

Barbara, I'd like to see if you agree with me or not since you're generally very level-headed with Oscar. I believe the main disconnect in the Mata/Oscar debate was the creator vs the central midfielder. Mata can make something out of nothing, all over the pitch making himself available for a return pass which seemed like always. Oscar is rigid in his positioning, his first touch can be awful at times (I always laugh when I see articles talking about his silky first touch), and his passing range and ability is nothing like his predecessor. However, he works his ass off, which generally gets fans on your side, and he's still capable of producing around the box. He doesn't really contribute to the buildup play like Mata, Hazard, or Fab.

That's where I think lies the problem. He doesn't contribute to the buildup like a #10 should - but he still produces at times like the match vs Newcastle. Fans who don't care about him contributing more to the team while we're on the ball say, "look at him scoring, look at him assisting" and then there are fans that notice he hasn't had a good game at all minus that moment of the goal/assist. His deficiencies have been masked by Fab becoming the best CM in the league and Eden elevating his play. God forbid one of them suffers an injury, we have to rely on an inconsistent 10 and RW to pick up the pace and then we're RIGHT back to last season, which is why it never made sense to me that Mata was never made the 10. Really, that was reflected in our inability to beat the lower sides. For our team's needs last season, Mata shouldn't have been on the wing.

[lucio 5,418]

Barbara, I'd like to see if you agree with me or not since you're generally very level-headed with Oscar. I believe the main disconnect in the Mata/Oscar debate was the creator vs the central midfielder. Mata can make something out of nothing, all over the pitch making himself available for a return pass which seemed like always. Oscar is rigid in his positioning, his first touch can be awful at times (I always laugh when I see articles talking about his silky first touch), and his passing range and ability is nothing like his predecessor. However, he works his ass off, which generally gets fans on your side, and he's still capable of producing around the box. He doesn't really contribute to the buildup play like Mata, Hazard, or Fab.

That's where I think lies the problem. He doesn't contribute to the buildup like a #10 should - but he still produces at times like the match vs Newcastle. Fans who don't care about him contributing more to the team while we're on the ball say, "look at him scoring, look at him assisting" and then there are fans that notice he hasn't had a good game at all minus that moment of the goal/assist. His deficiencies have been masked by Fab becoming the best CM in the league and Eden elevating his play. God forbid one of them suffers an injury, we have to rely on an inconsistent 10 and RW to pick up the pace and then we're RIGHT back to last season, which is why it never made sense to me that Mata was never made the 10. Really, that was reflected in our inability to beat the lower sides. For our team's needs last season, Mata shouldn't have been on the wing.

we could have kept bruyne. mata was never likely to stay. too valuable in the case of a transfer, and pretty much physically impossible for him to fulfil the managers vision. de bruyne needed work on that, but had the tools to achieve it.

[didierforever 7,349]

why is he being compared to ,muller.

and not people like coutinho and ramsey?

more useful than looking at muller and madrid players. who are always bound to have high stats

We want to be the best team in the world along with the likes of RM, barca, bayern. What would a comparision with pool and arsenal players give us, 2 teams that are not in top4 presently.

[lucio 5,418]

We want to be the best team in the world along with the likes of RM, barca, bayern. What would a comparision with pool and arsenal players give us, 2 teams that are not in top4 presently.

a comparison of how so called good players in the same position, fare against the same opponents in the same league. its easier to get an assist vs almeria , where you can pass to ronaldo from 35 yards out.

the guy has 28 goals. theres going to be alot of assists to go around

i generally dont see as much value in cross league comparison, different dynamics, most teams have a budget of £2m over there.

bt if you and others think its useful, then by all means, but i wont alter my opinion on a chelsea player on la liga stats

[Barbara 15,149]

Barbara, I'd like to see if you agree with me or not since you're generally very level-headed with Oscar. I believe the main disconnect in the Mata/Oscar debate was the creator vs the central midfielder. Mata can make something out of nothing, all over the pitch making himself available for a return pass which seemed like always. Oscar is rigid in his positioning, his first touch can be awful at times (I always laugh when I see articles talking about his silky first touch), and his passing range and ability is nothing like his predecessor. However, he works his ass off, which generally gets fans on your side, and he's still capable of producing around the box. He doesn't really contribute to the buildup play like Mata, Hazard, or Fab.

That's where I think lies the problem. He doesn't contribute to the buildup like a #10 should - but he still produces at times like the match vs Newcastle. Fans who don't care about him contributing more to the team while we're on the ball say, "look at him scoring, look at him assisting" and then there are fans that notice he hasn't had a good game at all minus that moment of the goal/assist. His deficiencies have been masked by Fab becoming the best CM in the league and Eden elevating his play. God forbid one of them suffers an injury, we have to rely on an inconsistent 10 and RW to pick up the pace and then we're RIGHT back to last season, which is why it never made sense to me that Mata was never made the 10. Really, that was reflected in our inability to beat the lower sides. For our team's needs last season, Mata shouldn't have been on the wing.

I think the one aspect he improved this season compared to the two previous ones is his linkup with Eden (and has been also creating a good one with Cesc). It's been a very slow process, but I'm starting to see it happen. He's much more connected, aware and has a much better understanding now with Eden (and Cesc) than in previous years. That was one of the biggest advantages Mata had... his understanding not only with Eden, but about the game in general, with a killing vision are among his best qualities.

Oscar is miles away from catching up, but I've seen progress there. And that's what we need him to progress the most. If you look at the second goal, he was the one that passed with a first touch to Cesc and that has happened many times before this season between Cesc-Eden-Oscar regardless if before an assist or not.

He needs to get himself involved, he needs more consistency with his passing and vision. We've seen him give some amazing first touch passes, he has a good first touch, as well as good vision, good passing, good finishing. The problem is that he isn't consistent on any of those things and he isn't great in any of them either.

Mata had no space in this team, mate. The style José wanted didn't suit him and I think the way modern football developed, the last league he should have gone is the English. Mata is a classical playmaker that is also very weak physically, very slow and who needs the team to be built around him for him to produce his best outcome.Regardless of Oscar or Kevin, even if we didn't have either in the team, I don't see Mata playing consistently in a Mourinho's team. Two goals came yesterday from amazing pressing (Oscar involved directly in both pressing moments), we are quick to try to recover the ball after we lose it and Mata can't do it for many reasons.

Oscar may not be the answer or the best option for the position, but there's a reason Mourinho let go of Juan and regardless of who stayed, joined or will join, I support his decision 100%... Cesc is a good combination of Oscar and Mata, having the best of each - which is why I consider him, and not Oscar, as Mata's replacement. José knew he had a creativity issue with only Hazard in the team, then he brought Cesc. We keep dreaming about an improvement in the RW but I'm not sure José will pursue one... at least not this year.

[DYC. 7,542]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

According to WhoScored, Oscar played 80 passes at a 85% pass completion rate. Which 12 passes out of 80 didn't reach it's target. You're exaggerating. That said, he did annoy me with his at times wayward passing. But looking at the bigger picture, Oscar did perform well. Any player's job goes further than passing.

Rating a player's performance is subjective. What's more valuable, a beautiful pass setting up a goal (not directly assisting) or a great tackle dispossessing your opponent. Is a dribble going past two players more valuable than some excellent tracking work preventing runners from going through on goal? Does a goal line clearance trump a goal scored that ends up winning a match? Brilliant movemement vs brilliant passing? What is a passer without a receiver?

But decisveness is always key. I've seen Cristiano Ronaldo put in ordinary performances, score 2 goals and receive all the plaudits. Meanwhile, players like Modric, Ozil, Alonso would provide a brilliant performance. CR being crowned MOTM is still deserved because goals win games. Top all-round performances don't necessarily win you games. Still, one of the midfielders being awarded MOTM would've been deserved as well.

What I'm trying to say is, there is no one way of looking at football. Oscar was not my MOTM but saying others are wrong for picking him, or for saying he was quality, is an ignorant statement. Btw, ESPN rated him a 9, he received a 8.9 on WhoScored, 4.5 stars out of 5 on Goal.com, 8.5 from The Daily Mail. So it's not just the posters here like you said.

[didierforever 7,349]

a comparison of how so called good players in the same position, fare against the same opponents in the same league. its easier to get an assist vs almeria , where you can pass to ronaldo from 35 yards out.

the guy has 28 goals. theres going to be alot of assists to go around

i generally dont see as much value in cross league comparison, different dynamics, most teams have a budget of £2m over there.

bt if you and others think its useful, then by all means, but i wont alter my opinion on a chelsea player on la liga stats

wait, what?

so its fair to compare a CAM who is servicing lambert/borini/sterling as a striker or a CM who is servicing welbeck/grioud to a 17 goal costa but not fair when isco is compared to oscar? coutinho is a "decent" player and if people want oscar to be compared to him, then this is a sad day. coutinho is not anywhere near chelsea first team material, the likes of isco, koke etc are and hence the comparison.

this nonsense about la liga being easier than PL has time and again been proven to be crap especially considering how well the la liga teams are doing in europe and even in its general play. for every almeria there is a qphaha.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Oscar already has as many assists as your boy (Coutinho) had last season despite feeding Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling so no you're wrong. Fact is he's outperforming every single one of the Young AM's this season bar James.

The fact some you genuinely believe Barkley (who Everton fans are begging to be benched) is better than Oscar is exactly why this I question the football knowledge of some you.

[Tomo 21,751]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

Tbf there was many games Mata was borderline anonymous then popped up with goal/assist and got POTY twice.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Oscar is finding some form at the right time.

His energy and work rate are vital to the way we play, as with Willian. Unpopular I know!

We have 16 cup finals in the league to win - 3 in the COC and plenty in other competitions - we're going to need all of our players and definitely OSCAR.

He's improving year on year and in a couple of seasons, I predict greater things from him.

[didierforever 7,349]

Oh, it's Club World Cup, fair enough. It's weird anyway. On Whoscored Isco has only 1 goal in the World Cup, in Transfermarkt he has 1 goal and 1 assist. Whoscored is usually right though.

Isco:

Whoscored.com - 4 goals, 5 assists.

Goal.com - 3 goals, 5 assists. (CWC not included).

Transfermartk - 4 goals, 10 assists.

Espn.com - 4 goals, 7 assists.

Honestly I haven't slept this last night so I'm tired and not willing to dig the truth behind the numbers.

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2014/12/20/world/fifa-club-world-cup/real-madrid-club-de-futbol/club-atletico-san-lorenzo-de-almagro/1974876/(CWC match against lorenzo)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862060/Live/Spain-La-Liga-2014-2015-Real-Madrid-Cordoba(vs cordoba)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862098/Live(deportivo la coruna -2 assists)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862174/Live(levante)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862155/Live(rayo valecano)

(the first and the fifth goal)

(the second and the 4th goal).

i cant be anymore thorough than this. have always felt that transfermarkt is one of the best sites for stats.

[Cescy 40]

I think 5 out of Oscar's 6 goals in the league have been the opening goals of the game. His assists are usually early in the game too. He's more decisive this season.

---

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

Ah yes contribution in the prestigious Club World Cup, Europa and against 3rd division Spanish sides. Even looking at your list Oscar fairs well against some of the best players in the world...

Comparison of Oscar, Isco, James, KDB, Gotze, Koke and Muller in their leagues. Quick let's make a £80m bid for James or Muller for their additional 0.04 or 0.03 respective contributions . If we can't get them, let's replace Oscar with Koke or Isco because... new toys. Forget how they fit our system, with our other players, if they are even an upgrade or opportunity cost.

Yeah let's be fair to Isco, but not our own player who drops deep regularly and defends way more than most of the people on that list...

It doesn't matter how much he improves with a few of you on this forum, the goal posts will just keep moving.