Politics & Stuff

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Actually, I am quite against the current government, but alright, here goes mate

Currently, the government consists of three parties: "The Social democrats", "The Socialist People's Party" and the "Central Left Party". In Denmark we have a one chamber system, in which you have to control a certain amount of mandates (91 or something). The three parties don't, so they are being supported by the ultra-left party, former DKP (Danish Communist Party). However, right now they are pushing towards the middle, implementing loads of right wing reforms and policies, such as lowering the SU (Education Governmental Support) and budget cuts. Many socialists are actually taking great offense because of this, and the former biggest party in Denmark (Social Democrats) are now below 15% in opinion polls compared to 30-40% 5-10 years ago. The ultra left wing party though has seen an immense increase in popularity. They have gone from about 3-4% to 12-13% of the total votes. That's mainly due to the other left wing parties moving towards the middle, and I can understand that. They continued the direction of the former liberal government and has decreased social benefits to "utilize" private companies and decrease the taxes.

Regarding the communist label of Soviet Russia, you have to put things into perspective. If I call myself a goat, I'll still be a human, won't I? So if I proclaim that I am a socialist, and I go about liberal policies, and abandon my original ideology (communism/socialism), am I still a communist then? No. Stalin was a dictator. He was not a communist, because if a state is 100% communist, there would be no government, no dictators, no rulers, no oligarchy, nothing. The resources would be entirely managed by the workers, and the means of production would be in the control of the "people". Of course you can disagree with this, but that is essentially the basic factors of communism. There are loads of different variations though.

I agree with you, the Soviet Union was no better than fascism. But true communism has never been applied to any state in the world. Bolshevism, collectivism, Leninism are all variations of Marxism (socialism), but they have been only existed as a transitional ideology, while eventually turning into something else.

Regarding your nation, of course you can relate to the times of occupation. But my point was, if you can relate to a period in the past of your country, how can Rmpr not relate to the situation of people less fortunate than him? Of course he can, and of course you can, mate.

Woah, almost every party seems to be more of a left wing one. For the past 10 years, only 2 parties have actually ruled, other parties having a minor role. One is a right wing one, other a more pro-russia left wing. Though, there has been a bit of a change in form of Social Democrats (I vote for them) bursting onto the scene. They possess fair solutions to working class, decrease corporations' and companies' bonuses. Basically something that has worked wonders in Northen countries and in Denmark looking at the salaries, health care etc. Atm we just went through a strike by teachers, doctors and almost also pilots, because of low wages and mental working hours. One down fall I can think of is that IF SDE can get the power and form Estonia into a welfare country - how will we stop the immigrants coming in?

[Peppen 934]

It's hard to find a family in Estonia that hasn't been touched by the deportations and warfare of the World War II. God knows where we'd be now if it wasn't for Boriss Jeltsin who called back the troops (it got very intense here, I remember my father saying that he thinks it's about to get bloody - keep in mind there were already bloody consequences in neighbouring Baltic state Latvia, tanks on the streets, civilianz blocking the path to Tallinn's Broadcasting Tower to keep in touch with the people and the world, freeing the parliament building from russian demonstrants after Edgar Savisaar asked people to save the nation over live-radio) from Estonia during the Moscow's August Coup in 1991. So as Estonians, we take anything like that very personally as we've experienced it first hand. Till this day Estonia pretty much has the word "enemy" and "Russia" as synonyms and the feelings are still there. Just as little back as 2007 there was a major riot on the streets of Riot where russian speaking community used the removing of a statue (that was a memorial statue for Soviets from WW2) from downtown Tallinn (capital of Estonia) to a more quieter, less provocative place as an excuse to riot, burglar shops and trash the city. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night

So the feelings run deep, as if the hate for russians runs in our DNA, whereas I've only heard good (well, good as in as good as they can be when your country is being invaded by foreign troops) things about the German soldiers from my family members or history class for that matter.

Mate, I wasn't trying to discredit your country's history at all. Denmark was occupied by the Germans too, and my Grandma even gave eggs, bread and meat to the soldiers. I really believe you, when you tell stories of suffering and despise. I'm not trying to change that. I am merely discussing whether or not the Soviet Union was in fact communist or not.

Not that it matters that much, when I hear stories like that. Humankind can be so cruel.

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

Mate, I wasn't trying to discredit your country's history at all. Denmark was occupied by the German too, and my Grandma even gave eggs, bread and meat to the soldiers. I really believe you, when you tell stories of suffering and despise. I'm not trying to change that. I am merely discussing whether or not the Soviet Union was in fact communist or not.

Not that it matters that much, when I hear stories like that. Humankind can be so cruel.

I was just adding to this thread, didn't take any of your comments as an insult, far from it, was a good read as you seem to orientate in history very well. If you take history book definition of communism, then yes, it wasn't anything like that but they'll always be known as the reds or as the commies.

[Peppen 934]

Woah, almost every party seems to be more of a left wing one. For the past 10 years, only 2 parties have actually ruled, other parties having a minor role. One is a right wing one, other a more pro-russia left wing. Though, there has been a bit of a change in form of Social Democrats (I vote for them) bursting onto the scene. They possess fair solutions to working class, decrease corporations' and companies' bonuses. Basically something that has worked wonders in Northen countries and in Denmark looking at the salaries, health care etc. Atm we just went through a strike by teachers, doctors and almost also pilots, because of low wages and mental working hours. One down fall I can think of is that IF SDE can get the power and form Estonia into a welfare country - how will we stop the immigrants coming in?

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety net including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a a social security like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

[bushman 2,043]

When you chaps find out that cloud-land, please make a note of it here. Tomorrow, I am flying there immediately.

[Peppen 934]

I was just adding to this thread, didn't take any of your comments as an insult, far from it, was a good read as you seem to orientate in history very well. If you take history book definition of communism, then yes, it wasn't anything like that but they'll always be known as the reds or as the commies.

Oh, cheers mate. I don't intend to insult anyone. Everyone is welcome to "donate" their input to the discussion, in politics there's rarely something that's wrong or right.

Yup, sadly, they'll always be remembered as that. Let's end this post with a quote from Orwell, shall we?

"'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a safety net like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

I'm all for foreigners who come and contribute to the community but my worry is that they turn up and start demanding just like they did in France, wanting autonomy in an independent country without learning the language, having prper education or qualification to do anything, live off subsidies etc. That's my concern. Plus wherever you go, you will always be treated as a foreigner. I guess that's why there's the saying: there's no place like home.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a safety net like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

The multicultural debate is a very very interesting one. I am from an incredibly multicultural city and have friends from almost every background you can think of but I do see the downside and the complications as well. Many people point to Northern Europe as the ideal society but one of the reasons they are able to have that social structure is that they are small, homogeneous populations. It's much harder to run that sort of society with many different different types of people, You look at Europe, they haven't been able/willing to assimilate many immigrant groups and the end result has been isolation and resentment, in many cases a two-tiered society one for the natives and one for the immigrants. (Who sometimes live in almost a ghetto with satellites all around, they are barely even in their own country) If you look at the US which allows multiculturalism but only within the context of being American, immigrant groups do much better there. I hate nationalism and ethnic nationalism most of all. Immigration is mostly a good thing, but it's a complicated issue.

[Peppen 934]

The multicultural debate is a very very interesting one. I am from an incredibly multicultural city and have friends from almost every background you can think of but I do see the downside and the complications as well. Many people point to Northern Europe as the ideal society but one of the reasons they are able to have that social structure is that they are small, homogeneous populations. It's much harder to run that sort of society with many different different types of people, You look at Europe, they haven't been able/willing to assimilate many immigrant groups and the end result has been isolation and resentment, in many cases a two-tiered society one for the natives and one for the immigrants. (Who sometimes live in almost a ghetto with satellites all around, they are barely even in their own country) If you look at the US which allows multiculturalism but only within the context of being American, immigrant groups do much better there. I hate nationalism and ethnic nationalism most of all. Immigration is mostly a good thing, but it's a complicated issue.

The debate of multi ethnicities is fuming here as of now. To add to the growing interests, the Danish National Party (nationalism, patriotism and slight racism) has never been bigger than it is now. It currently has 22% of the combined votes. That's a fairly large chunk. But not only that, the mentality towards immigrants has also changed a lot. When the Soviet Union occupied Hungary, loads of people immigrated to Denmark (I believe it was 1958-59), and they were treated like heroes, because they fought back the Soviets. They were housed, offered jobs and the integration into the Danish society was a resounding success.

Now however, people have changed their views on immigration. A lot of the right wing parties, as of now, wants to refuse to adhere international conventions of immigration policies. They want to take away their right to vote, cut social benefits and increase the punishment for crime. People with a foreign surnames are being turned down, merely because of the fact that they are not natives. That's not blunt nationalism or patriotism, that's pure discrimination.I have friends from various different cultures, and of course some of them don't quite contribute to society as an individual. But the latest studies show that immigrant females right now have as high an educational rate as native Danish females. The system however seems to fail to address the males.

I concur, though. It's an interesting debate, and people will probably never agree. I like you despise nationalism, and think it's often being used as an excuse to act as a complete ignorant.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Rmpr, I'm still a bit stunned how I always come off as arrogant or offended, because I'm not a person to hold a grudge or take offense that easily, must be that you cant show real emotions through a screen. So there is nothing to talk about here. For sure, if I still got to contribute to this thread alongside your posts then we can continue doing so in a grown up way as you suggested, cant say though that it got out of hand in any given time.

I dont think you are any bit arrogant. I just think you overreact when I use strong sarcasm. I am just a problematic dude, nonsense from time to time. I use irony expecting people to play along...

You trully shocked me when you replied in the BF3 thread, you really did. It was clearly a healthy joke and you interpret it differently. Today I was already expecting though. It could also be just me misinterpreting your reactions, but I think you did take it the wrong way!

We didnt get out of hand and that is why I gor concerned you didnt answer. It was/is alright by my part, but since you didnt reply, I thought tou had taken something personally.

Only thing that bothered me was when you insinuated stuff about me and when you said I was trying to give you a lecture. Sorry if it did come out that way, but I swear to anything you want it wasnt my intention. From the begining what I was defending was the right for rich people (Marx) to give their opinion on what they think is best for the 'world' (so to speak). Just like I think poor people can openly critiize those billionaires...

[Backstreet09 499]

What's with North Korea lol ? THEY ARE THREATNING USA ? I mean are they even in their senses ? Do they want to become the next Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iran is going down pretty soon if they are following it's footstep .

[Peppen 934]

What's with North Korea lol ? THEY ARE THREATNING USA ? I mean are they even in their senses ? Do they want to become the next Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iran is going down pretty soon if they are following it's footstep .

It's a strategy to negotiate.

[Backstreet09 499]

It's a strategy to negotiate.

And you think America is going to fall for that ?

[Hutcho 8,443]

It's a strategy to negotiate.

It will result in the cold war 2.0

Lets threaten to nuke the crap out of each other...

[Peppen 934]

And you think America is going to fall for that ?

Not saying it's a reasonable way to negotiate.

[Rmpr 8,977]

What's with North Korea lol ? THEY ARE THREATNING USA ? I mean are they even in their senses ? Do they want to become the next Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iran is going down pretty soon if they are following it's footstep .

Not gonna happen, just a way to put pressure and 'tell the world' North Koera has nuclear weapon! This is actually not the first time it has happened, but USA is 'safe'. No one will let it reach that level. The only real problem is if they will 'attack' South Korea or not...

Also, Afghanistan is Vietnan 2.0. USA arent really losing, but they arent really winning either. The expenses and coleteral effects have just become too big to continue the war!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Not gonna happen, just a way to put pressure and 'tell the world' North Koera has nuclear weapon! This is actually not the first time it has happened, but USA is 'safe'. No one will let it reach that level. The only real problem is if they will 'attack' South Korea or not...

Also, Afghanistan is Vietnan 2.0. USA arent really losing, but they arent really winning either. The expenses and coleteral effects have just become too big to continue the war!

Afghanistan is unwinnable, but it's not Vietnam. In Afghanistan we're talking about 15, 000 troops, 15, 000 civilians, and unknown number of Taliban killed in about 12 years. In Vietnam, it was about 800, 000 fighters killed and millions of civilians the vast majority of whom were also killed in a 12 year period ('63-'75). We're talking the difference between say 50-100K dead and millions.

North Korea is the weirdest country in the world. This is what happens when countries become isolated. They start to listen to their own internal lies only and they forget what's true and what's not ("Did we make that up to scare people o is it true?). You look at South Korea and what a generally very good country that's become and then you look . North Korea is just impoverished, isolated, and ruled by maniacs who would be funny if not for the actual misery they inflict on their people.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Afghanistan is unwinnable, but it's not Vietnam. In Afghanistan we're talking about 15, 000 troops, 15, 000 civilians, and unknown number of Taliban killed in about 12 years. In Vietnam, it was about 800, 000 fighters killed and millions of civilians the vast majority of whom were also killed in a 12 year period ('63-'75). We're talking the difference between say 50-100K dead and millions.

North Korea is the weirdest country in the world. This is what happens when countries become isolated. They start to listen to their own internal lies only and they forget what's true and what's not ("Did we make that up to scare people o is it true?). You look at South Korea and what a generally very good country that's become and then you look . North Korea is just impoverished, isolated, and ruled by maniacs who would be funny if not for the actual misery they inflict on their people.

Spot on!

I just said it is Vietnam all over again because some major aspects is very similar. For instance, the desert makes things unsustainable for soldiers or whoever doesnt know the land (just change it to a forest). Also, we are talking about one super prepared and rich troop against amateur poor military force. And there is the massive media disaproval as well. 3 big similarities, but there is also the life impact that you rightfully discribed.

EDIT: I just realised how I vastly (see) overuse adverbs when writing in English. WEIRD!

[Backstreet09 499]

Afghanistan is unwinnable, but it's not Vietnam. In Afghanistan we're talking about 15, 000 troops, 15, 000 civilians, and unknown number of Taliban killed in about 12 years. In Vietnam, it was about 800, 000 fighters killed and millions of civilians the vast majority of whom were also killed in a 12 year period ('63-'75). We're talking the difference between say 50-100K dead and millions.

Afghanistan is quite winnable , if Pakistan stops his double game with USA . I mean we are supporting the extremists group , whenever NATO or other forces tryies to caged the terrorists , they run off from there in their safe houses here in our tribal areas.

[Peppen 934]

Afghanistan is quite winnable , if Pakistan stops his double game with USA . I mean we are supporting the extremists group , whenever NATO or other forces tryies to caged the terrorists , they run off from there in their safe houses here in our tribal areas.

But that's not likely to happen anytime soon now is it? You can't force change on Afghanistan or any other Middle Eastern state for that matter. The western societies can't simply deploy troops in foreign countries and expect the native populations to accept and adopt democracy.