Politics & Stuff

[nadavTKL 1,787]

I really appreciate your open-mindedness mate and there is a lot of common ground between my opinion and what you wrote above. Besides the point that LDN already made about Mahmoud, the only point I would disagree with is that you can't, imo, put as much blame on the Palestinians as on your government. I am in no way saying that they are guilt-free, in fact the Palestinian leaders are all corrupt corrupt bastards and idiots who gamble with the lives of their people and sell for cheap. But I, as human being, can't help but think why are those humans extremists which something I could never be? What happened to force these people to the extremes? And I know you probably won't like my opinion on this, but it is Zionism that drove them to the extreme. It's been an ongoing slaughter from 1948; they have been thrown out of their homes or had them bulldozed on their heads, they've been under siege and they've lost most of their land as well as their basic human rights. I am not excusing their extremism or blood lust, just saying that Israel and the west have played a major part in it.

i said couple of times that i put more blame on our side, much more acctualy. To surprise you, i do think Israel drove them to the extreme, at least some of it (we dont know exactly what was before). Like i said, our approch always was wrong IMO, too agressive and most of all we didnt compromise almost never.

Another point is, I honestly think they stopped fighting for land a long time ago, and despite what their leaders keep on saying in a rather poetic way, all the Palestinian people want is simply to live. End the siege, allow them to have their basic rights of life and the people themselves will kick Hamas and the extremists out because everyone has had enough fighting imo.

I hope you right, and i didnt say something else about that, just saying you cant be sure.

On a side note, Hamas are part of the Ikhwan, or muslim brotherhood that is mainly found in Egypt, and since their election in Egypt the US has managed to 'convince' them to take a 180 degrees turn and are now supporters of Israel. So despite them being muslim extremists, they are now what Hilarity Clinton would call "Arabic Moderation".

I know that your media does their best to portray a different image but this what's happening. Tell me then, what has your army been targeting since Friday? Take yesterday for a example: ALL the attack yesterday were on civilian houses in Gaza (well to be completely fair, one was on a russian tv station) and almost all the causalities yesterday were women and children.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but your army does kill civilians deliberately, and has done countless times in the past, sometimes even in front of the media's cameras like the Mohammed the little boy who was shot while he was in his father's arms which was the catalyst for the second 'intifada'. The Israeli army has in the past bombed a UN shelter were all the women and children Qana had taken shelter killing 80 of them at once, they have bulldozed homes with their inhabitants still inside them to build new settlements and they have targeted many reporters. There are records of hundreds of Palestinian CHILDREN who were killed by snipers. And there are just examples of much much more. In fact, I knew civilians who were deliberately killed by the Israeli army when they occupied parts of Lebanon.

I'll correct myself, i do know about some horrible stories that our army did in Gaza, also things you mentioned, not denying that at all, what i meant is that our government and the head of the army are not giving orders to kill civilians deliberately.Those things you mentioned are terrible things that soldeirs and stupid commanders decided to do on their own. Again, im sure its not orders from the top (prime minister, our Chief of General Staff etc). If you do think its direct orders from them, i think its you that listen to much to your media. maybe their were uglier stories from the past that i dont know of, but right now, those people who lead Israel dont give those orders. about that: "what has your army been targeting since Friday? Take yesterday for a example: ALL the attack yesterday were on civilian houses in Gaza". Again, i cannot agree on those actions(and not all the attack was on houses, again, dont lie because i know whats going on too)- but they are attcking places that from them Hamas sending their rockets. Like you said Hamas "gamble with the lives of their people and sell for cheap", i do belive they are firing from places with civilians just to make our army attack there, and then they will say our army is killing civilians. Its obvious and everyone knows that. If you didnt understand my ideas- i acttualy think we shouldnt attack at all, not if its near civilians or if it is. but i think we messep up too much so now everything is irreversible, and Israel cant do nothing when rockets flying all the time on the citizens. Its sad that we are choosing the wrong option again and again.

Oh, and dont worrey, "media" is a big word, there is alot on sources here, like every country almost. alot of channels and alot of different newspapers, and the media in israel consider as an opposite to whats going on in the gonverment, fully left wing. So we know everything and they are not giving any mercies on the mistakes of our army and gonverment.

Okay beg was an exaggeration, but what I meant is that, despite the army's threats and Nataniaho's speeches, Israel is not at all benefiting from the current situation. They are clearly unable to stop the rockets, and while air-raids are just another day in Gaza, the resistance's rockets have managed to disrupt the life in many Israeli cities most significant of which is Tel Aviv which had never been bombed before. I think that the threats of a land invasion are just hot air simply because they know that the losses will not be worth it. Especially with the Cornett missiles that the Palestinians now have and that cause the Israeli army great losses in Lebanon, the cost of a land invasion will be too high and it will achieve next to nothing because the rockets will not stop.

"air-raids are just another day in Gaza", not its not, civilians in Gaza arent killed day by day by our army, our army doesnt attack so many objective in Hamas in normal days. i think youre lying to youself abit, and with no reason realy, becuase im not someone to argue with, i agree on alot of the things you said. so we should be realistic. I will tell you the truth- yes rockets have managed to disrupt the life in israel, but the thing is no one is surprised that Hamas got all the way to Tel Aviv with their rockets, no one is in shock. And i can also tell that most people here want the oparation to go to another level, people are fully behind the gonverment (again, most of them).

I don't think any sane man can believe Hamas can 'win the war'. The amount of funding, arming, and international support for Israel is absolutely ridiculous compared to Hamas'. Hamas and the Palestinians are fighting because they have nothing else left to do. The Palestinians will never have the power to get their land back nor will the west let them get it if they ever manage to have enough power to get it.

And just for the record, the vast majority of the rockets launched on Israel are not by Hamas who after the Egyptian revolution are now in the anti-Iran axis which consequently meant that they are not being armed anymore. The rockets, in particular the Iranian rocket "Fajer 5" which is causing you all sort of problems, are being launched by the "Islamist Jihad" militia...just for factual accuracy.

I apologize my wording of the statement did not make it clear. I did not mean that Hamas don't intend to kill Israelis, that is ultimately the why you launch missiles, to kill. The fighters in Gaza have as much blood lust as the Israeli army. But what I meant is that the Palestinian missiles don't need to actually kill to achieve their purpose. The moment the sirens in the targeted city sound, the launching is considered a success. That is because, as I said before, they can never dream to match Israel's fire power, instead all they try to achieve is a "Terror Balance" i.e. make you afraid of war just as much as they are.

They kill you in Gaza not because they are racists but because of what Israelis have done to them in the past. It's not like Hitler who just decided that Jews should not live; it's not racism against the Jewish religion like Hitler, or skin color like in the US. In fact, throughout history the only place that Jews were not oppressed in was the Arab world. A nice historical fact to serve as evidence to that, is when Arabs were forced out of Andalusia in Spain and Portugal, the Jewish community there moved back with Arabs to north Africa in fear of Christian oppression and they remained there till the early 20th century and some are still there now. Moreover, only a century ago, Jews were peacefully living side by side next to Muslims and Christians in none other than Palestine, as well as Lebanon and Syria and various Arab countries. So it was never about racism against Jews, it has always been about ant-Zionism.

I know, just wanted to say it so people will understand whats going on, maybe it was unnecessary.

i won't get into the complicated situation of the Palestinians living in Israel but it is no surprise, it is, after all, their land.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

Mahmoud Abbas is a US puppet that they openly endorse because he's a reactionary which means he'll appease the Israeli's and open the door for them to continue building their illegal settlements into Palestine.

I do sympathize with most Israeli citizens because I don't believe for a second that they approve of the what's going on in that region, everyday living in fear of what's coming your way from the other side. It's refreshing to actually talk to an Israeli who does recognize the atrocities of their government.

Hamas are quite violent in their approach and of course that's undeniable that they are guilty of not trying to fix the situation, a fault that lies with both Hamas & the Israelis. Though I wouldn't stretch so far as to call them terrorists, I mean you have to remember the Palestinians did actually vote in that regime so democracy does exist somewhere in this war-torn region.

I think Choulo made a very good point though, your government has underestimated exactly how much power Hamas has gathered in anticipation of this renewed escalation of further violence. But ultimately you're right, nothing will be done in terms of settling this. Certainly not while the UN & US remains quiet of the crimes Israel continues to commit, because they've been more than vocal about Hamas.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you consider yourself a Zionist?

I call them terrorists becuase i see how they talk, i see how they are acting, hiding on houses of citizans and schools to send their

rockets so we'll attack there.

a Zionist? what do you mean by it?

I can say that i do think we deserve to live in Israel, the sons of israel lived in those lands thousends of years ago, but i do belive Palestines have their right to demand to live here to. I belive in justice and i want Israel to be a quiet place to live in- so i belive in a solution of two states living on those lands. If you'll ask almost anyone in israel today, they'll say im not a "Zionist", but i dont realy care about those things. Its intresting for me to know why you asked that actually..

[Rmpr 8,977]

I know that your media does their best to portray a different image but this what's happening.

Sorry, you are being extremely impartial. You cant think everyone`s media and means to obtain information is always missleading and you have all the right information. You are very much close to what is happening, but that does not mean you are with the absolutely right point of view. Any comunication service works for their own purposes. It is up to the individual to decide on what parts to believe and gather as much information from both parts as possible...

You both have great points, but it is not here that you both will agree on centuries of dispute and vengance!

IT IS JUST LIKE AFRICAN TRIBOS, IT IS NOT ABOUT RATIONAL REASONS ANYMORE.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Death toll: 100 Palestinians to 3 Israelis last time I checked. Is this true?

[Rmpr 8,977]

Death toll: 100 Palestinians to 3 Israelis last time I checked. Is this true?

I dont know if it the exact numbers are true, but the difference beetwen deaths is absurd.

Last big battle (2009) was 1300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

You both have great points, but it is not here that you both will agree on centuries of dispute and vengance!

For me we are agreeing on almost everything, on the important things for sure. thing is im realy not an example for the "average Israeli". Far far from that.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I dont know if it the exact numbers are true, but the difference beetwen deaths is absurd.

Last big battle (2009) was 1300 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.

This is actually true of pretty much all wars in the past 50 years and was perhaps true of most wars in history. War has become completely asymmetrical in virtually every way. It's no longer fought on battlefields between two relatively even fighting forces and hasn't been for a long time (probably since the Korean War). I'm pretty sick of the Palestinian-Israeli wars. Until both sides respect each others' right to exist, there simply will be no peace. It's a political conflict that both sides think that they can win militarily and they can't. It's amazing to me to continue to see people act as if they're just about to win or that the tide is turning so that they are close to achieving their goals (which are generally destruction of "the other"). It's not going to happen. The other side is not going to give up and thinking that they will is just ridiculous. They also both need to stop looking at the past and look to the future. If everyone in the world were obsessed about the past, there'd be unending wars in every single country. At some point, people have to care more about the future than the past. Also, the outside influences in the dispute are poisonous. If both sides got the support for peace that they get for war, there'd have been peace long ago.

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

[dave30 728]

Compared to usual i do think the media language has been more pro-Israel in the UK than it normally is.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

"Busy" they it was, not only in Chelsea FC. First, in noon there was an explosive charge that blow up a bus in Tel Aviv, and there was 21 injured people. Hamas didnt done it i understand, but they did praise this attack. after that the attack in Gaza got stronger by isreal, but in 9PM they announced a cease-fire. but for now, there was 13 rockets that were sended from Gaza after the announcement.

[zolayes 14,489]

dont usually get involved in the politics of the Middle East .....but imo the Israel -Palestine problem was caused by the UK government in 1947 or 1948

memory so if year is wrong apologise

[LDN Blue 7,903]

I call them terrorists becuase i see how they talk, i see how they are acting, hiding on houses of citizans and schools to send their

rockets so we'll attack there.

a Zionist? what do you mean by it?

I can say that i do think we deserve to live in Israel, the sons of israel lived in those lands thousends of years ago, but i do belive Palestines have their right to demand to live here to. I belive in justice and i want Israel to be a quiet place to live in- so i belive in a solution of two states living on those lands. If you'll ask almost anyone in israel today, they'll say im not a "Zionist", but i dont realy care about those things. Its intresting for me to know why you asked that actually..

Ah. Well I wanted to ask what exactly those who proclaim to be Zionists actually believe.. Hope you could've clarified for me?

[Rmpr 8,977]

dont usually get involved in the politics of the Middle East .....but imo the Israel -Palestine problem was caused by the UK government in 1947 or 1948

memory so if year is wrong apologise

It was not CAUSED by UK, but you guys left the region without a proper agreement and this led to the civil war. It definetly did not help...

At least it is partially resolved for now.

[zolayes 14,489]

It was not CAUSED by UK, but you guys left the region without a proper agreement and this led to the civil war. It definetly did not help...

At least it is partially resolved for now.

that really is what I meant

[Rmpr 8,977]

that really is what I meant

I know, I am trying to say it wasnt THAT big of a problem (UK leaving) as you seem to think (by reading your post).