Politics & Stuff

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You bring up a very good point about the brotherhood and other groups of similar nature. Alot of people seem to think correctly so that they seek to impose their view and kill if they must Christians, jews, etc but people seem to forget they also do this to other muslims who do not conform to their more radical khalifa views. This is a point we should not overlook. Which is why the west should morally support the liberals(in the good sense of the world liberal) in the mideast.

The problem is the west don't get that my friend. Do you know that the radical Islamists in Gaza are killing muslims in Egypt in the name of Islam now. Every day there is some sort of an attack. I would understand if they fight the Israelis because of the long conflict. But they are focusing their attention at Egypt cause it was their best chance by far to start their Khilafa ideology. It is soooooo sick if you ask me. But unfortunately the west don't understand that and they are debating democracy. With all due respect, if democracy is going to bring murderers to rule Egypt and wage wars against our own people and other nations, then screw democracy at this time. I would rather have someone who is not a Muslim build Egypt economically, socially, and scientifically than a radical so Muslim who is willing to destroy it under the name of Islam.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Sounds similar to the Jewish and Catholic.

The Jewish had the Torah the most sacred book but then comes the rabbi interpreting their own stuff and making up their own rules and regulations in the Talmud and such.

Likewise Catholic taking the Bible and turning the Bible into political gains of each party.

Granted today Catholic church is not what it used to be ages ago, but nonetheless it was the same.

A sect that took all the authority to interpret and create rules and guidelines to govern people.

This is why I said there's no perfect system. In every religion and in every government you will have people corrupting the nature of the original rules.

The only thing that makes sense is to keep balances and checks. Can't have all the power concentrated in one place or person.

The Muslim world right now are like the Christians during the medievel time. The persumed religious man would mislead the poor and the uneducated to satisfy personal needs under the name of God and salvation. That is exactly what we are going through. I am a Muslim but I have been called an infidel by such extreme groups, just because I said that we should pray for mercy for our late Christian Pope Shunuda like we pray for mercy for Muslims

[jasonlol 154]

The problem is the west don't get that my friend. Do you know that the radical Islamists in Gaza are killing muslims in Egypt in the name of Islam now. Every day there is some sort of an attack. I would understand if they fight the Israelis because of the long conflict. But they are focusing their attention at Egypt cause it was their best chance by far to start their Khilafa ideology. It is soooooo sick if you ask me. But unfortunately the west don't understand that and they are debating democracy. With all due respect, if democracy is going to bring murderers to rule Egypt and wage wars against our own people and other nations, then screw democracy at this time. I would rather have someone who is not a Muslim build Egypt economically, socially, and scientifically than a radical so Muslim who is willing to destroy it under the name of Islam.

Just wrote a long reply and backspaced and paged got earsed. So ill rewrite a shorter version. Democracy is a tricky word, if 60 percent of people vote to kill someone cause majority said so than this is clearly not democracy in the good sense, now if you vote in a goverment thats there to protect rights than thats good. We did not get this in egypt(they were better off under mubarak), and not all westerners are ignorant to this but current u.s leadership is(one before was no better). They sold the brotherhood weapons and gave them billions. I think what needs to happen in the greater islamic world is a revolutionary like averroes needs to step up but its hard because political freedom is hard to come by in the middle east. So for me any intellectual revolution that would enlighten the masses in the islamic world would have to come from the u.s(most likely). People such have Dr. Zhuddi Jasser have stepped up to the plate. You would love his book http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Soul-Islam-American-Patriots/dp/145165796X he fights the fight you fight and makes the case that islam is compatible with western values and coexsistence.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Just wrote a long reply and backspaced and paged got earsed. So ill rewrite a shorter version. Democracy is a tricky word, if 60 percent of people vote to kill someone cause majority said so than this is clearly not democracy in the good sense, now if you vote in a goverment thats there to protect rights than thats good. We did not get this in egypt(they were better off under mubarak), and not all westerners are ignorant to this but current u.s leadership is(one before was no better). They sold the brotherhood weapons and gave them billions. I think what needs to happen in the greater islamic world is a revolutionary like averroes needs to step up but its hard because political freedom is hard to come by in the middle east. So for me any intellectual revolution that would enlighten the masses in the islamic world would have to come from the u.s(most likely). People such have Dr. Zhuddi Jasser have stepped up to the plate. You would love his book http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Soul-Islam-American-Patriots/dp/145165796X he fights the fight you fight and makes the case that islam is compatible with western values and coexsistence.

You know what mate, I am really thankful, for referring a book to me and that video too. I am going to watch it sometime today after the Champions League matches. I appreciate it mate

[Kieran. 6,317]

Look at the prison system of the United States. Our cops target young people of color, mostly black or latino, for drugs and then these kids have to serve double digit prison sentences for minor drug offenses. Prison for profit is so outrageous and it's just one adverse affect of capitalism.

The Prison Industrial Complex needs to be discussed more in mainstream media but of course it won't lol.

[Rmpr 8,977]

If you guys have 1 hour and half to kill I recommend you watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FAb3yAmBSM

It articulates my sentiments on inequality& equality. Equality before the law is the only equality worth fighting for and inequality rather a virtue than a vice; because in free systems wealth is created not a zero sum game so you are compensated based on what you deserve(this is inequality). Also equality of outcome is a very scary thought because only way to make people equal is by punishing virtue.

This idea is fundamentally wrong because people dont gain what they deserve, they gain in correlation with how much money they make to their bosses!

Something quite well explained in Marx's theory...

[Peppen 934]

Firstly free market capitalism has never been practiced in full. The closet we have ever had(and it was very close) was the U.S.A from 1776 to 1913(after this you got stuff like incometax, regulations and fed reserve). So criticizing capitalism based on current situations of any countries is misguided. U.S.A right now spends 22 percent of its gdp at fed level and is varies but around another 20 at state level. That means 44ish % of GDP in u.s.a is spent by the govement(central planning). Sweeden is is at 48%.. So indeed we lived in MIXED economies not free market capitalism(not even close) and anytime we increase economic freedom prosperity always ensues.

One more point capitalism is not just an economic system, but rather one of individual rights free of the coercive force of government. Its the most moral system because it allows the individual to pursue his desired values and interests without other people telling him or voting on what he can and can not due assuming what he does does not violate individual rights of others.

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

[jasonlol 154]

This idea is fundamentally wrong because people dont gain what they deserve, they gain in correlation with how much money they make to their bosses!

Something quite well explained in Marx's theory...

I dont quite understand what your saying. In a free society you get paid according to how productive you are, if you feel your being underpaid you can find someone who properly values your production better.

[jasonlol 154]

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

Ye ive always found it odd people called sweeden socialist. When they regulate less than the u.s does and they protect inovation better, and in Swedish culture they don't seem to demonize businessmen like they do in the u.s. Now Sweden they did go through socialism in the 80s but they have reduced the size of government since. Now as for the socilzed medicine and stuff, for me its a moral issue. I just dont feel im entitled to other peoples stuff. I have no right to use goverment(which is force) to than coerse you to pay for my Medicare. You create your wealth you keep it. Now you can voluntarily give some of it away, you do as you choose fit.

[jasonlol 154]

Look at the prison system of the United States. Our cops target young people of color, mostly black or latino, for drugs and then these kids have to serve double digit prison sentences for minor drug offenses. Prison for profit is so outrageous and it's just one adverse affect of capitalism.

The Prison Industrial Complex needs to be discussed more in mainstream media but of course it won't lol.

Its because these kids are institutionalized into poverty because of the welfare state and an entitlement attitude.

[jasonlol 154]

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3906/how_the_welfare_state_hurts_the_poor

This article is on how welfare hurts the poor.

Heres a video to go along

[jasonlol 154]

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

this is a more indepth argument from my side. Sorry I should of included this in my first reponse

[Peppen 934]

Its the most moral system

That is subjective.

Ye ive always found it odd people called sweeden socialist. When they regulate less than the u.s does and they protect inovation better, and in Swedish culture they don't seem to demonize businessmen like they do in the u.s. Now Sweden they did go through socialism in the 80s but they have reduced the size of government since. Now as for the socilzed medicine and stuff, for me its a moral issue. I just dont feel im entitled to other peoples stuff. I have no right to use goverment(which is force) to than coerse you to pay for my Medicare. You create your wealth you keep it. Now you can voluntarily give some of it away, you do as you choose fit.

Yeah, they have privatized public businesses and school systems, and I don't think that was particularly more efficient or popular, at least what I recall reading. The flaw of capitalism is that you cannot guarantee that practicing your individual rights, won't hurt my individual rights.

[jasonlol 154]

That is subjective.

Yeah, they have privatized public businesses and school systems, and I don't think that was particularly more efficient or popular, at least what I recall reading. The flaw of capitalism is that you cannot guarantee that practicing your individual rights, won't hurt my individual rights.

Im arguing its most moral because it leaves man free to pursue his own values and interests assuming he does not violate rights of others. Now im happy you brought up the last point because im not advocating for anarchy, in fact I despise anarchy. Government is a necessary good and its sole role is the protect the rights of its populus. That means police to protect from criminals, military from forein invaders, and courts to protect from fraudsters.

And the standard for what is a right, is you dont have a right to somebody elses stuff, you have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Peppen 934]

Im arguing its most moral because it leaves man free to pursue his own values and interests assuming he does not violate rights of others. Now im happy you brought up the last point because im not advocating for anarchy, in fact I despise anarchy. Government is a necessary good and its sole role is the protect the rights of its populus. That means police to protect from criminals, military from forein invaders, and courts to protect from fraudsters.

And the standard for what is a right, is you dont have a right to somebody elses stuff, you have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That is still a subjective observation. There is no correct definition of human rights. Added to that, I might have different definition of what "somebody elses stuff" is. If some rich business owner does nothing than actually supply the means of production, and makes million of dollars of other people's labor, I (!) don't think he is contributing equally to the economy, nor to society. But that is a SUBJECTIVE observation, just like you believe capitalism is the most moral of ideologies. And again, the flaw in capitalism is still that you cannot necessarily guarantee those rights, and need some sort of government to enforce/protect them.

Your video is from the Ayn Rand institute, and while I accept every source or argument, I fucking can't stand Ayn Rand, sorry.

I thin anarchy is interesting in theory, but impossible in practice (at least in what I consider a successful political model).

[Rmpr 8,977]

I dont quite understand what your saying. In a free society you get paid according to how productive you are, if you feel your being underpaid you can find someone who properly values your production better.

Not true at all...

If this was how society worked, professionals like teachers/nurses/policemen would have the biggest salaries by far!

What gives one money is how much revenue he can generate with his job. Which is something a lot of important professions just cant do. A pre-school teacher will never be able to find a job that pays more than 50k/year, no matter how good they are. However, a movie star will get 15mi for one movie because they can generate 500+ if it becomes a hit.

So, that whole idea of yours (and that video) is easily proved wrong!!!

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You see buddies both what you are saying is correct. It is VERY subjective. You cannot pick a system over another and make it a universal one. It must sort of mixture between both and how much capitalism vs socialism is being applied again varies from a county to another and a sector/industry to another. Just try to think about other 1st world countries. Some are surely better off with less government intervention, while others require more intervention, possibly to aid a certain sector or solve a social aspect. A very healthy debate, but again due to cultural differences and a variety of human and social needs, is very subjective.

[Peppen 934]

One of the big issues with capitalism in the modern day is the relentless march of efficiency-increasing automation. It takes a higher intelligence to repair an advanced welding robot than it does to weld a car. Technology thus produces greater and greater inequality, as it forces the less-gifted segments of society into unemployment while increasing the productivity of the remaining workforce.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

One of the big issues with capitalism in the modern day is the relentless march of efficiency-increasing automation. It takes a higher intelligence to repair an advanced welding robot than it does to weld a car. Technology thus produces greater and greater inequality, as it forces the less-gifted segments of society into unemployment while increasing the productivity of the remaining workforce.

Agree with you but then comes the debate of customers satisfaction, added value of the end product, market demand and saturation and foreign and domestic competition and all of which would benefit the economy and would be ( idealistically speaking) reflected on society and individuals . That is one thing that I hate about economics man. It has a lot of assumptions embedded within it. Not as simple as 1+1=2

[Peppen 934]

Agree with you but then comes the debate of customers satisfaction, added value of the end product, market demand and saturation and foreign and domestic competition and all of which would benefit the economy and would be ( idealistically speaking) reflected on society and individuals . That is one thing that I hate about economics man. It has a lot of assumptions embedded within it. Not as simple as 1+1=2

I agree 100 %, bro. I was merely trying to get a point across that capitalism (even laissez faire, true capitalism) is not as good as people make it out to be. And I would even go as far to say it is impossible to achieve, just like true communism.

It's the economy, stupid. Haha, fuck economics

Shockingly fitting video - ROFL