Politics & Stuff

[jasonlol 154]

Firstly free market capitalism has never been practiced in full. The closet we have ever had(and it was very close) was the U.S.A from 1776 to 1913(after this you got stuff like incometax, regulations and fed reserve). So criticizing capitalism based on current situations of any countries is misguided. U.S.A right now spends 22 percent of its gdp at fed level and is varies but around another 20 at state level. That means 44ish % of GDP in u.s.a is spent by the govement(central planning). Sweeden is is at 48%.. So indeed we lived in MIXED economies not free market capitalism(not even close) and anytime we increase economic freedom prosperity always ensues.

One more point capitalism is not just an economic system, but rather one of individual rights free of the coercive force of government. Its the most moral system because it allows the individual to pursue his desired values and interests without other people telling him or voting on what he can and can not due assuming what he does does not violate individual rights of others.

[jasonlol 154]

If you guys have 1 hour and half to kill I recommend you watch this video.

It articulates my sentiments on inequality& equality. Equality before the law is the only equality worth fighting for and inequality rather a virtue than a vice; because in free systems wealth is created not a zero sum game so you are compensated based on what you deserve(this is inequality). Also equality of outcome is a very scary thought because only way to make people equal is by punishing virtue.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Don't think any new system you bring up will change it either.

Communism in the past was a disaster.

When you look at the Muslim brotherhood it feels sort of the same. Either you follow their believes or you die.....as I heard the radical islamic hate Christians and jews and are out to kill them.

With such think minded people you cannot reason.

The old structure of kings ruling over the land was almost the same. You might have one good king that does great, but when one bad kings come it erases the entire work someone did and puts them back into the dark ages.

So if you have something that is really great that will respect every religion and ethnicity then I would like to hear it. Who is going to overrule it, how he or she will be appointed to power and such?

What happens when you have a corrupt ruler?

The problem with the so called brotherhood is that they have been misinterpruting the Muslim Holy Book which is the Quran. They came through deductions and very narrow sighted analysis of the early days of Islam to something called the Shari'a law. Basically a set of laws that they claim are in the Quran based on their understanding. Their goal was to re-establish the so called Khalifa. Basically what that means is the union of all Muslim countries under one " Chosen" leader. They will try to seek that by any means necessary even if it means killing not only the Christians and the Jews but other Muslims too.

That being said I want to clarify that there is no such thing as a clear economical model in Islam, but rather broad lines, like caring for the poor which is I know from reading the Bible that is in Christianity and Judaism. So whatever claims they promote are not accurate and are so much debatable withing the Muslim world and the Muslim Scholars.

[jasonlol 154]

The problem with the so called brotherhood is that they have been misinterpruting the Muslim Holy Book which is the Quran. They came through deductions and very narrow sighted analysis of the early days of Islam to something called the Shari'a law. Basically a set of laws that they claim are in the Quran based on their understanding. Their goal was to re-establish the so called Khalifa. Basically what that means is the union of all Muslim countries under one " Chosen" leader. They will try to seek that by any means necessary even if it means killing not only the Christians and the Jews but other Muslims too.

That being said I want to clarify that there is no such thing as a clear economical model in Islam, but rather broad lines, like caring for the poor which is I know from reading the Bible that is in Christianity and Judaism. So whatever claims they promote are not accurate and are so much debatable withing the Muslim world and the Muslim Scholars.

You bring up a very good point about the brotherhood and other groups of similar nature. Alot of people seem to think correctly so that they seek to impose their view and kill if they must Christians, jews, etc but people seem to forget they also do this to other muslims who do not conform to their more radical khalifa views. This is a point we should not overlook. Which is why the west should morally support the liberals(in the good sense of the world liberal) in the mideast.

[Fernando 6,484]

The problem with the so called brotherhood is that they have been misinterpruting the Muslim Holy Book which is the Quran. They came through deductions and very narrow sighted analysis of the early days of Islam to something called the Shari'a law. Basically a set of laws that they claim are in the Quran based on their understanding. Their goal was to re-establish the so called Khalifa. Basically what that means is the union of all Muslim countries under one " Chosen" leader. They will try to seek that by any means necessary even if it means killing not only the Christians and the Jews but other Muslims too.

That being said I want to clarify that there is no such thing as a clear economical model in Islam, but rather broad lines, like caring for the poor which is I know from reading the Bible that is in Christianity and Judaism. So whatever claims they promote are not accurate and are so much debatable withing the Muslim world and the Muslim Scholars.

Sounds similar to the Jewish and Catholic.

The Jewish had the Torah the most sacred book but then comes the rabbi interpreting their own stuff and making up their own rules and regulations in the Talmud and such.

Likewise Catholic taking the Bible and turning the Bible into political gains of each party.

Granted today Catholic church is not what it used to be ages ago, but nonetheless it was the same.

A sect that took all the authority to interpret and create rules and guidelines to govern people.

This is why I said there's no perfect system. In every religion and in every government you will have people corrupting the nature of the original rules.

The only thing that makes sense is to keep balances and checks. Can't have all the power concentrated in one place or person.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Firstly free market capitalism has never been practiced in full. The closet we have ever had(and it was very close) was the U.S.A from 1776 to 1913(after this you got stuff like incometax, regulations and fed reserve). So criticizing capitalism based on current situations of any countries is misguided. U.S.A right now spends 22 percent of its gdp at fed level and is varies but around another 20 at state level. That means 44ish % of GDP in u.s.a is spent by the govement(central planning). Sweeden is is at 48%.. So indeed we lived in MIXED economies not free market capitalism(not even close) and anytime we increase economic freedom prosperity always ensues.

One more point capitalism is not just an economic system, but rather one of individual rights free of the coercive force of government. Its the most moral system because it allows the individual to pursue his desired values and interests without other people telling him or voting on what he can and can not due assuming what he does does not violate individual rights of others.

You see you are right that the haven't practiced 100% capatalism and neither does China practiced 100% socialism. It is the way you approach each of them. If you don't pay attention to the very high competion in capatalism you will end up with unempoyement and what results from it socially and economically. You don't pay attention in socialsim to the necessity of competion and efficiency and welfare spendings you end up with exactly the same results. Extremes are always bad in every aspect in life philosphically and practically speaking in my opinion. Balance is the key apraoch

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You bring up a very good point about the brotherhood and other groups of similar nature. Alot of people seem to think correctly so that they seek to impose their view and kill if they must Christians, jews, etc but people seem to forget they also do this to other muslims who do not conform to their more radical khalifa views. This is a point we should not overlook. Which is why the west should morally support the liberals(in the good sense of the world liberal) in the mideast.

The problem is the west don't get that my friend. Do you know that the radical Islamists in Gaza are killing muslims in Egypt in the name of Islam now. Every day there is some sort of an attack. I would understand if they fight the Israelis because of the long conflict. But they are focusing their attention at Egypt cause it was their best chance by far to start their Khilafa ideology. It is soooooo sick if you ask me. But unfortunately the west don't understand that and they are debating democracy. With all due respect, if democracy is going to bring murderers to rule Egypt and wage wars against our own people and other nations, then screw democracy at this time. I would rather have someone who is not a Muslim build Egypt economically, socially, and scientifically than a radical so Muslim who is willing to destroy it under the name of Islam.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Sounds similar to the Jewish and Catholic.

The Jewish had the Torah the most sacred book but then comes the rabbi interpreting their own stuff and making up their own rules and regulations in the Talmud and such.

Likewise Catholic taking the Bible and turning the Bible into political gains of each party.

Granted today Catholic church is not what it used to be ages ago, but nonetheless it was the same.

A sect that took all the authority to interpret and create rules and guidelines to govern people.

This is why I said there's no perfect system. In every religion and in every government you will have people corrupting the nature of the original rules.

The only thing that makes sense is to keep balances and checks. Can't have all the power concentrated in one place or person.

The Muslim world right now are like the Christians during the medievel time. The persumed religious man would mislead the poor and the uneducated to satisfy personal needs under the name of God and salvation. That is exactly what we are going through. I am a Muslim but I have been called an infidel by such extreme groups, just because I said that we should pray for mercy for our late Christian Pope Shunuda like we pray for mercy for Muslims

[jasonlol 154]

The problem is the west don't get that my friend. Do you know that the radical Islamists in Gaza are killing muslims in Egypt in the name of Islam now. Every day there is some sort of an attack. I would understand if they fight the Israelis because of the long conflict. But they are focusing their attention at Egypt cause it was their best chance by far to start their Khilafa ideology. It is soooooo sick if you ask me. But unfortunately the west don't understand that and they are debating democracy. With all due respect, if democracy is going to bring murderers to rule Egypt and wage wars against our own people and other nations, then screw democracy at this time. I would rather have someone who is not a Muslim build Egypt economically, socially, and scientifically than a radical so Muslim who is willing to destroy it under the name of Islam.

Just wrote a long reply and backspaced and paged got earsed. So ill rewrite a shorter version. Democracy is a tricky word, if 60 percent of people vote to kill someone cause majority said so than this is clearly not democracy in the good sense, now if you vote in a goverment thats there to protect rights than thats good. We did not get this in egypt(they were better off under mubarak), and not all westerners are ignorant to this but current u.s leadership is(one before was no better). They sold the brotherhood weapons and gave them billions. I think what needs to happen in the greater islamic world is a revolutionary like averroes needs to step up but its hard because political freedom is hard to come by in the middle east. So for me any intellectual revolution that would enlighten the masses in the islamic world would have to come from the u.s(most likely). People such have Dr. Zhuddi Jasser have stepped up to the plate. You would love his book http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Soul-Islam-American-Patriots/dp/145165796X he fights the fight you fight and makes the case that islam is compatible with western values and coexsistence.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Just wrote a long reply and backspaced and paged got earsed. So ill rewrite a shorter version. Democracy is a tricky word, if 60 percent of people vote to kill someone cause majority said so than this is clearly not democracy in the good sense, now if you vote in a goverment thats there to protect rights than thats good. We did not get this in egypt(they were better off under mubarak), and not all westerners are ignorant to this but current u.s leadership is(one before was no better). They sold the brotherhood weapons and gave them billions. I think what needs to happen in the greater islamic world is a revolutionary like averroes needs to step up but its hard because political freedom is hard to come by in the middle east. So for me any intellectual revolution that would enlighten the masses in the islamic world would have to come from the u.s(most likely). People such have Dr. Zhuddi Jasser have stepped up to the plate. You would love his book http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Soul-Islam-American-Patriots/dp/145165796X he fights the fight you fight and makes the case that islam is compatible with western values and coexsistence.

You know what mate, I am really thankful, for referring a book to me and that video too. I am going to watch it sometime today after the Champions League matches. I appreciate it mate

[Kieran. 6,317]

Look at the prison system of the United States. Our cops target young people of color, mostly black or latino, for drugs and then these kids have to serve double digit prison sentences for minor drug offenses. Prison for profit is so outrageous and it's just one adverse affect of capitalism.

The Prison Industrial Complex needs to be discussed more in mainstream media but of course it won't lol.

[Rmpr 8,977]

If you guys have 1 hour and half to kill I recommend you watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FAb3yAmBSM

It articulates my sentiments on inequality& equality. Equality before the law is the only equality worth fighting for and inequality rather a virtue than a vice; because in free systems wealth is created not a zero sum game so you are compensated based on what you deserve(this is inequality). Also equality of outcome is a very scary thought because only way to make people equal is by punishing virtue.

This idea is fundamentally wrong because people dont gain what they deserve, they gain in correlation with how much money they make to their bosses!

Something quite well explained in Marx's theory...

[Peppen 934]

Firstly free market capitalism has never been practiced in full. The closet we have ever had(and it was very close) was the U.S.A from 1776 to 1913(after this you got stuff like incometax, regulations and fed reserve). So criticizing capitalism based on current situations of any countries is misguided. U.S.A right now spends 22 percent of its gdp at fed level and is varies but around another 20 at state level. That means 44ish % of GDP in u.s.a is spent by the govement(central planning). Sweeden is is at 48%.. So indeed we lived in MIXED economies not free market capitalism(not even close) and anytime we increase economic freedom prosperity always ensues.

One more point capitalism is not just an economic system, but rather one of individual rights free of the coercive force of government. Its the most moral system because it allows the individual to pursue his desired values and interests without other people telling him or voting on what he can and can not due assuming what he does does not violate individual rights of others.

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

[jasonlol 154]

This idea is fundamentally wrong because people dont gain what they deserve, they gain in correlation with how much money they make to their bosses!

Something quite well explained in Marx's theory...

I dont quite understand what your saying. In a free society you get paid according to how productive you are, if you feel your being underpaid you can find someone who properly values your production better.

[jasonlol 154]

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

Ye ive always found it odd people called sweeden socialist. When they regulate less than the u.s does and they protect inovation better, and in Swedish culture they don't seem to demonize businessmen like they do in the u.s. Now Sweden they did go through socialism in the 80s but they have reduced the size of government since. Now as for the socilzed medicine and stuff, for me its a moral issue. I just dont feel im entitled to other peoples stuff. I have no right to use goverment(which is force) to than coerse you to pay for my Medicare. You create your wealth you keep it. Now you can voluntarily give some of it away, you do as you choose fit.

[jasonlol 154]

Look at the prison system of the United States. Our cops target young people of color, mostly black or latino, for drugs and then these kids have to serve double digit prison sentences for minor drug offenses. Prison for profit is so outrageous and it's just one adverse affect of capitalism.

The Prison Industrial Complex needs to be discussed more in mainstream media but of course it won't lol.

Its because these kids are institutionalized into poverty because of the welfare state and an entitlement attitude.

[jasonlol 154]

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3906/how_the_welfare_state_hurts_the_poor

This article is on how welfare hurts the poor.

Heres a video to go along

[jasonlol 154]

On the other hand, true communism has never existed either. Not stating it would be superior to absolute capitalism or anything, but your reasoning goes both ways. Scandinavia is commonly considered to be socialist, and while that is true to some extent, we still lack several vital elements to true socialism. I can only speak for myself, but I would MUCH rather pay 50 % tax and have socialized medicine, notable public transportation subsidies, free access to education, public retirement, paid maternity leave, social security etc etc. I know that is not attractive to all people, and I respect that. But to me, something about true capitalism, objectivism, individualism and consumerism just seems wrong. Mixed economy, yes, people not leeching our system, of course.

A homeless man recently died on the streets of Copenhagen. That was the first time in a very long time I heard of anything like that. It caused severe debate in the media, specially politically. Why does anyone have to die in a country like ours? Now, I'm not claiming Denmark is better than any other country, cause we're not. But I'd much rather be part of a collective unit that takes care of each other, than the individualist alternative.

this is a more indepth argument from my side. Sorry I should of included this in my first reponse