Politics & Stuff

[Rmpr 8,977]

Can't say I have been sensitive any way but it is rather funny for me to listen to a teenager talking about different regimes when my country was occupied by an occupant practicing communism - a form of socialism. Or take a lecture from a person about poverty, who types through his iPhone/iPad and travels continents to see a football match. Said everything I've got to say, take care.

For starters, Comunism is an ideal free form of social system where there is no government, so this is already all wrong.

Second, you are very sensitive mate, serious. Cant you remeber the BF3 thread, where I did a joke and you got all offended? And what about the Roman Bear one?

Third, I have all the right to talk about things I have studied and know well. The fact your country was invades or if you are old (idk), does not make you smarter! Brazil was in some shit conditions at that time as well, for different reasons, but we had a super hard military dictatorship form 1964-1988. i may not have lived that period, but I had to study absolutely everything to pass my exams with good grades. I feel very low when people appeal for money or age, it trully makes me sad.

Lastly, did you just used irony to insinuate I am rich and that disqualify my arguments? One thing to be clear, I am not giving any lecture about poverty (re-read the posts), I am defending the stupid stereotype that people with money have no idea of what is going on and for that reason cant write a book about it!

P.S: iPad...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Going to merge the whole thread with the Politics thread since almost all of it is off topic.

[Peppen 934]

Can't say I have been sensitive any way but it is rather funny for me to listen to a teenager talking about different regimes when my country was occupied by an occupant practicing communism - a form of socialism. Or take a lecture from a person about poverty, who types through his iPhone/iPad and travels continents to see a football match. Said everything I've got to say, take care.

Not meaning any harm, but I'm assuming you are talking about the Soviet Union invading Estonia? But the thing is, they weren't a communist, nor a socialist government or regime. They were Stalinist, and there's a huge difference.

And unless you were born, and lived under the occupation, your argument about Rmpr doesn't make much sense. Brazil has, as far as I know, suffered from poverty from ages due to Imperialism which has certain connections to capitalism.

Your economical status doesn't necessarily change your objectivity or tamper your knowledge. Goes for poor people too.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Not meaning any harm, but I'm assuming you are talking about the Soviet Union invading Estonia? But the thing is, they weren't a communist, nor a socialist government or regime. They were Stalinist, and there's a huge difference.

And unless you were born, and lived under the occupation, your argument about Rmpr doesn't make much sense. Brazil has, as far as I know, suffered from poverty from ages due to Imperialism which has certain connections to capitalism.

Your economical status doesn't necessarily change your objectivity or tamper your knowledge. Goes for poor people too.

Thank you man, really!

Sometimes I cant express myself right enough because my English isnt that great...

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Yes, you're absolutely right. When the lower and middle classes get fed up with the ruling body, and revolts, only to turn their state into yet another totalitarian regime, it is quite obvious that SOMETHING is wrong. To claim that the Soviet Union was indeed socialist though, is horribly wrong. It was a simple dictatorship, covered up with vague Stalinist elements.

To me, or at least in Denmark, ideologies seem to have played their role. Of course it is not the same around the globe, but these ideologies were invented in a whole different generation. Poverty was a much bigger issue (still is, but less), a much smaller - or non existent middle class and no social safety nets. In Denmark the citizens pay taxes according to their income. Granted, it still needs optimizing, but it's somewhat fair. Exploits of the systems still takes place, but to endorse ideals and thoughts which dates back to +100 years ago, would not do any good in my humble opinion.

The parties in Denmark have all gone towards the middle practicing a sort of consensus policy where either party, even divided by wing, color, ideals, can work out an agreement.

Peppen mate, can you tell me which world view party rules in Denmark atm? Because the policies you mentioned seem right and fair, something -in an ideal world- we could implement in Estonia.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Not meaning any harm, but I'm assuming you are talking about the Soviet Union invading Estonia? But the thing is, they weren't a communist, nor a socialist government or regime. They were Stalinist, and there's a huge difference.

And unless you were born, and lived under the occupation, your argument about Rmpr doesn't make much sense. Brazil has, as far as I know, suffered from poverty from ages due to Imperialism which has certain connections to capitalism.

Your economical status doesn't necessarily change your objectivity or tamper your knowledge. Goes for poor people too.

Why are they called communists then? Please mate, you can define and twist this whichever way you want but it was communism taken to a new level - Stalinism. Did I had to be deported to Siberia for the rest of my life, beaten half deaf, shot by the soldiers to make sense? We have a very deep wound from that era as a nation, everyone has seen their loved ones being taken away from them or punished in a very cruel way for nothing, that's why I'm a bit sceptical about the knowledge some of us here are trying to spread, just because 'I read it from my history book'.

You don't see me trying to justify to a jew why Nazi Germany is better than Soviet Russia. It comes down to morals and respect. So in a sense, some things are best meant to be unsaid, even if you are about to explode from definitions and termins

[Rmpr 8,977]

Why are they called communists then? Please mate, you can define and twist this whichever way you want but it was communism taken to a new level - Stalinism. Did I had to be deported to Siberia for the rest of my life, beaten half deaf, shot by the soldiers to make sense? We have a very deep wound from that era as a nation, everyone has seen their loved ones being taken away from them or punished in a very cruel way for nothing, that's why I'm a bit sceptical about the knowledge some of us here are trying to spread, just because 'I read it from my history book'.

This must have been hard and dont think Brazil were in a better situation. My sincere condolences....

One thing really bothers me though, this is not Comunism, no matter what they say. Comunism is the last phase of Marxism, where all forms of governmemts become existinct. Comunism and anarquism are very much alike (weird that their followers have such rispid fights). So, if they were actually a dictatorship disguised into Socialism, clearly way too far from being Comunism, lol.

Onr question though, why wont you answer me? I did not insult you nor was I disrespectful. I trully hope we can continue the debate in a civilized way, one where sarcasm wont be used if you dont like it so much...

[Peppen 934]

Peppen mate, can you tell me which world view party rules in Denmark atm? Because the policies you mentioned seem right and fair, something -in an ideal world- we could implement in Estonia.

Actually, I am quite against the current government, but alright, here goes mate

Currently, the government consists of three parties: "The Social democrats", "The Socialist People's Party" and the "Central Left Party". In Denmark we have a one chamber system, in which you have to control a certain amount of mandates (91 or something). The three parties don't, so they are being supported by the ultra-left party, former DKP (Danish Communist Party). However, right now they are pushing towards the middle, implementing loads of right wing reforms and policies, such as lowering the SU (Education Governmental Support) and budget cuts. Many socialists are actually taking great offense because of this, and the former biggest party in Denmark (Social Democrats) are now below 15% in opinion polls compared to 30-40% 5-10 years ago. The ultra left wing party though has seen an immense increase in popularity. They have gone from about 3-4% to 12-13% of the total votes. That's mainly due to the other left wing parties moving towards the middle, and I can understand that. They continued the direction of the former liberal government and has decreased social benefits to "utilize" private companies and decrease the taxes.

Regarding the communist label of Soviet Russia, you have to put things into perspective. If I call myself a goat, I'll still be a human, won't I? So if I proclaim that I am a socialist, and I go about liberal policies, and abandon my original ideology (communism/socialism), am I still a communist then? No. Stalin was a dictator. He was not a communist, because if a state is 100% communist, there would be no government, no dictators, no rulers, no oligarchy, nothing. The resources would be entirely managed by the workers, and the means of production would be in the control of the "people". Of course you can disagree with this, but that is essentially the basic factors of communism. There are loads of different variations though.

I agree with you, the Soviet Union was no better than fascism. But true communism has never been applied to any state in the world. Bolshevism, collectivism, Leninism are all variations of Marxism (socialism), but they have been only existed as a transitional ideology, while eventually turning into something else.

Regarding your nation, of course you can relate to the times of occupation. But my point was, if you can relate to a period in the past of your country, how can Rmpr not relate to the situation of people less fortunate than him? Of course he can, and of course you can, mate.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

This must have been hard and dont think Brazil were in a better situation. My sincere condolences (?)....

One thing really bothers me, this is not comunism, no matter what they say. Comunism is the last phase of Socialism, where all forms of governmemts become existinct. So, if they were actually a dictatorship disguised into Socialism, clearly way too far from being Comunism, lol.

Onr question though, why wont you answer me. I did not insult you nor was I disrespectful. I trully hope we can continue the debate in a civilized way, one where sarcasm wont be used if you dont like it so much...

Rmpr, I'm still a bit stunned how I always come off as arrogant or offended, because I'm not a person to hold a grudge or take offense that easily, must be that you cant show real emotions through a screen. So there is nothing to talk about here. For sure, if I still got to contribute to this thread alongside your posts then we can continue doing so in a grown up way as you suggested, cant say though that it got out of hand in any given time.

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

Not meaning any harm, but I'm assuming you are talking about the Soviet Union invading Estonia? But the thing is, they weren't a communist, nor a socialist government or regime. They were Stalinist, and there's a huge difference.

And unless you were born, and lived under the occupation, your argument about Rmpr doesn't make much sense. Brazil has, as far as I know, suffered from poverty from ages due to Imperialism which has certain connections to capitalism.

Your economical status doesn't necessarily change your objectivity or tamper your knowledge. Goes for poor people too.

It's hard to find a family in Estonia that hasn't been touched by the deportations and warfare of the World War II. God knows where we'd be now if it wasn't for Boriss Jeltsin who called back the troops (it got very intense here, I remember my father saying that he thinks it's about to get bloody - keep in mind there were already bloody consequences in neighbouring Baltic state Latvia, tanks on the streets, civilianz blocking the path to Tallinn's Broadcasting Tower to keep in touch with the people and the world, freeing the parliament building from russian demonstrants after Edgar Savisaar asked people to save the nation over live-radio) from Estonia during the Moscow's August Coup in 1991. So as Estonians, we take anything like that very personally as we've experienced it first hand. Till this day Estonia pretty much has the word "enemy" and "Russia" as synonyms and the feelings are still there. Just as little back as 2007 there was a major riot on the streets of Tallinn where russian speaking community used the removing of a statue (that was a memorial statue for Soviets from WW2) from downtown Tallinn (capital of Estonia) to a more quieter, less provocative place as an excuse to riot, burglar shops and trash the city. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night

So the feelings run deep, as if the hate for russians (and I don't mean those russians who live in Estonia, learn the language, obey the law like a normal citizen. I mean thos russians who haven't learnt Estonian while living here for 20+ years, demand for russian to be second national language, more benefits for russians, waving Russian flags where they shouldn't etc, playing the CCCP anthem loudly etc, we're democratic and all that but there's a line.) runs in our DNA, whereas I've only heard good (well, good as in as good as they can be when your country is being invaded by foreign troops) things about the German soldiers from my family members or history class for that matter.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Actually, I am quite against the current government, but alright, here goes mate

Currently, the government consists of three parties: "The Social democrats", "The Socialist People's Party" and the "Central Left Party". In Denmark we have a one chamber system, in which you have to control a certain amount of mandates (91 or something). The three parties don't, so they are being supported by the ultra-left party, former DKP (Danish Communist Party). However, right now they are pushing towards the middle, implementing loads of right wing reforms and policies, such as lowering the SU (Education Governmental Support) and budget cuts. Many socialists are actually taking great offense because of this, and the former biggest party in Denmark (Social Democrats) are now below 15% in opinion polls compared to 30-40% 5-10 years ago. The ultra left wing party though has seen an immense increase in popularity. They have gone from about 3-4% to 12-13% of the total votes. That's mainly due to the other left wing parties moving towards the middle, and I can understand that. They continued the direction of the former liberal government and has decreased social benefits to "utilize" private companies and decrease the taxes.

Regarding the communist label of Soviet Russia, you have to put things into perspective. If I call myself a goat, I'll still be a human, won't I? So if I proclaim that I am a socialist, and I go about liberal policies, and abandon my original ideology (communism/socialism), am I still a communist then? No. Stalin was a dictator. He was not a communist, because if a state is 100% communist, there would be no government, no dictators, no rulers, no oligarchy, nothing. The resources would be entirely managed by the workers, and the means of production would be in the control of the "people". Of course you can disagree with this, but that is essentially the basic factors of communism. There are loads of different variations though.

I agree with you, the Soviet Union was no better than fascism. But true communism has never been applied to any state in the world. Bolshevism, collectivism, Leninism are all variations of Marxism (socialism), but they have been only existed as a transitional ideology, while eventually turning into something else.

Regarding your nation, of course you can relate to the times of occupation. But my point was, if you can relate to a period in the past of your country, how can Rmpr not relate to the situation of people less fortunate than him? Of course he can, and of course you can, mate.

Woah, almost every party seems to be more of a left wing one. For the past 10 years, only 2 parties have actually ruled, other parties having a minor role. One is a right wing one, other a more pro-russia left wing. Though, there has been a bit of a change in form of Social Democrats (I vote for them) bursting onto the scene. They possess fair solutions to working class, decrease corporations' and companies' bonuses. Basically something that has worked wonders in Northen countries and in Denmark looking at the salaries, health care etc. Atm we just went through a strike by teachers, doctors and almost also pilots, because of low wages and mental working hours. One down fall I can think of is that IF SDE can get the power and form Estonia into a welfare country - how will we stop the immigrants coming in?

[Peppen 934]

It's hard to find a family in Estonia that hasn't been touched by the deportations and warfare of the World War II. God knows where we'd be now if it wasn't for Boriss Jeltsin who called back the troops (it got very intense here, I remember my father saying that he thinks it's about to get bloody - keep in mind there were already bloody consequences in neighbouring Baltic state Latvia, tanks on the streets, civilianz blocking the path to Tallinn's Broadcasting Tower to keep in touch with the people and the world, freeing the parliament building from russian demonstrants after Edgar Savisaar asked people to save the nation over live-radio) from Estonia during the Moscow's August Coup in 1991. So as Estonians, we take anything like that very personally as we've experienced it first hand. Till this day Estonia pretty much has the word "enemy" and "Russia" as synonyms and the feelings are still there. Just as little back as 2007 there was a major riot on the streets of Riot where russian speaking community used the removing of a statue (that was a memorial statue for Soviets from WW2) from downtown Tallinn (capital of Estonia) to a more quieter, less provocative place as an excuse to riot, burglar shops and trash the city. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Night

So the feelings run deep, as if the hate for russians runs in our DNA, whereas I've only heard good (well, good as in as good as they can be when your country is being invaded by foreign troops) things about the German soldiers from my family members or history class for that matter.

Mate, I wasn't trying to discredit your country's history at all. Denmark was occupied by the Germans too, and my Grandma even gave eggs, bread and meat to the soldiers. I really believe you, when you tell stories of suffering and despise. I'm not trying to change that. I am merely discussing whether or not the Soviet Union was in fact communist or not.

Not that it matters that much, when I hear stories like that. Humankind can be so cruel.

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

Mate, I wasn't trying to discredit your country's history at all. Denmark was occupied by the German too, and my Grandma even gave eggs, bread and meat to the soldiers. I really believe you, when you tell stories of suffering and despise. I'm not trying to change that. I am merely discussing whether or not the Soviet Union was in fact communist or not.

Not that it matters that much, when I hear stories like that. Humankind can be so cruel.

I was just adding to this thread, didn't take any of your comments as an insult, far from it, was a good read as you seem to orientate in history very well. If you take history book definition of communism, then yes, it wasn't anything like that but they'll always be known as the reds or as the commies.

[Peppen 934]

Woah, almost every party seems to be more of a left wing one. For the past 10 years, only 2 parties have actually ruled, other parties having a minor role. One is a right wing one, other a more pro-russia left wing. Though, there has been a bit of a change in form of Social Democrats (I vote for them) bursting onto the scene. They possess fair solutions to working class, decrease corporations' and companies' bonuses. Basically something that has worked wonders in Northen countries and in Denmark looking at the salaries, health care etc. Atm we just went through a strike by teachers, doctors and almost also pilots, because of low wages and mental working hours. One down fall I can think of is that IF SDE can get the power and form Estonia into a welfare country - how will we stop the immigrants coming in?

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety net including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a a social security like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

[bushman 2,043]

When you chaps find out that cloud-land, please make a note of it here. Tomorrow, I am flying there immediately.

[Peppen 934]

I was just adding to this thread, didn't take any of your comments as an insult, far from it, was a good read as you seem to orientate in history very well. If you take history book definition of communism, then yes, it wasn't anything like that but they'll always be known as the reds or as the commies.

Oh, cheers mate. I don't intend to insult anyone. Everyone is welcome to "donate" their input to the discussion, in politics there's rarely something that's wrong or right.

Yup, sadly, they'll always be remembered as that. Let's end this post with a quote from Orwell, shall we?

"'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a safety net like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

I'm all for foreigners who come and contribute to the community but my worry is that they turn up and start demanding just like they did in France, wanting autonomy in an independent country without learning the language, having prper education or qualification to do anything, live off subsidies etc. That's my concern. Plus wherever you go, you will always be treated as a foreigner. I guess that's why there's the saying: there's no place like home.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Social democrats and worker unions have played an IMMENSE part in creating and sustaining the welfare systems we have in Denmark. Without them, there'd probably still be an incredible amount of exploiting happening every single day. They made sure we were granted a social safety including benefits like:

- Free health care for everyone.

- Free education

- Free economical support through education (like £200-800 per month in benefits)

- As student you can save 50% on public transportation

- Unemployment benefits.

- Massive investments in public transportation (the government has just published a plan in which they'll spend 34 billion DKK (£4 billion))

- Loads of other social benefits, such as care takers, economical support for kindergarten etc.

All these social reforms and benefits were not created by letting the multinational, nor the national companies run the show. They were implemented due to hard work and strikes from the public, and I hope that a safety net like this will once be normal around the world.

Regarding immigrants, I am divided. On one side, I can see why they interfere with our society, but on the other hand they bring a lot too, and I am pro a multicultural society. So can't really agree with you on that one mate

The multicultural debate is a very very interesting one. I am from an incredibly multicultural city and have friends from almost every background you can think of but I do see the downside and the complications as well. Many people point to Northern Europe as the ideal society but one of the reasons they are able to have that social structure is that they are small, homogeneous populations. It's much harder to run that sort of society with many different different types of people, You look at Europe, they haven't been able/willing to assimilate many immigrant groups and the end result has been isolation and resentment, in many cases a two-tiered society one for the natives and one for the immigrants. (Who sometimes live in almost a ghetto with satellites all around, they are barely even in their own country) If you look at the US which allows multiculturalism but only within the context of being American, immigrant groups do much better there. I hate nationalism and ethnic nationalism most of all. Immigration is mostly a good thing, but it's a complicated issue.