Mikel John Obi

[Kojo 4,676]

Read from this post onward about what members here thought about his performance in the CL final: http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/29-12-john-obi-mikel/?p=417848

People seem to forget his good games easily but remember every single half-mistake he makes. He was honestly my MOTM after Cech.

By the way Choulo that page you just linked, look above Manpe's post and look at mine. I predicted the outcome of Mikel for a long time. I have always been saying this, I'm not just some random hater.

[bleed_blue 136]

Got to love all these ignorants who keep saying that people hate mikel and Mikel is just a scapegoat.

Just because you are too thick to understand that Mikel is not good enough to be a regular started for a club that aims to win trophies like PL and Cl, you start calling others haters.

A guy comes here and says that Mikel is very good at tackling and winning the ball back. Has this guy ever watched Mikel play? or Does he know what tackling and winning the ball back is? Its like when Choulo19 said that Oscar cannot tackle. Why do you people come here to embarass yourself.

PS: reg that UCL final, that is the only style of game where Mikel is remotely useful. Play with 10 men behind the ball, everyone in our own half, Pray that the other team misses loads of chances, misses penalty and voila you are done. Unfortunately that strategy is only gonna win you very few big titles. But I don't expect Choulo19 to understand this basic thing because he just cannot.

[bleed_blue 136]

Beware people, If you point out factual inaccuracies in Choulo19's posts, he is going to use his moderator powers and give you a warning/block you.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Beware people, If you point out factual inaccuracies in Choulo19's posts, he is going to use his moderator powers and give you a warning/block you.

I got a whole thread started about me because he got upset with something I said in a private conversation....implied I had a problem with international fans (despite me attending matches and drinking with fans from around the world for almost two decades) to garner sympathy for himself/start a bit of trouble.

In his defence I think he has to make a certain number of posts per day and he's not too fussed about the content/quality.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

[lucio 5,417]

yeah he was good back then in the league. but for me 2011/12 and 2012/13 were below par from him

[bleed_blue 136]

I got a whole thread started about me because he got upset with something I said in a private conversation....implied I had a problem with international fans (despite me attending matches and drinking with fans from around the world for almost two decades) to garner sympathy for himself/start a bit of trouble.

In his defence I think he has to make a certain number of posts per day and he's not too fussed about the content/quality.

Another member was banned for arguing with him while Choulo19 kept sprouting racist banter all over the forums.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Another member was banned for arguing with him while Choulo19 kept sprouting racist banter all over the forums.

racist banter? serious accusations. proof?

[Stats 6,987]

Beware people, If you point out factual inaccuracies in Choulo19's posts, he is going to use his moderator powers and give you a warning/block you.

TBH, when you post you do sometimes insult people, even though you might not be intentionally doing this but so much times I have seen you reply to Choulo you have insulted him in some sort of way which is what I think he takes offence to. Rather than replying in a civil way, the message comes across quite rude. For instance in one of your previous posts you stated : "Just because you are too thick to understand that Mikel is not good enough to be a regular started for a club that aims to win trophies like PL and Cl, you start calling others haters"

That is the kind of thing moderators want to kick out and you have done that on a few occasions to be honest with you.

[English Freak 456]

Mikel's a good midfielder at the wrong club. He'd be very well suited for a 3 man midfield..

Hope Mourinho gives him a kick up the ass, we need him to play like he did in previous seasons if we seriously wanna win the PL.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Beware people, If you point out factual inaccuracies in Choulo19's posts, he is going to use his moderator powers and give you a warning/block you.

I got a whole thread started about me because he got upset with something I said in a private conversation....implied I had a problem with international fans (despite me attending matches and drinking with fans from around the world for almost two decades) to garner sympathy for himself/start a bit of trouble.

In his defence I think he has to make a certain number of posts per day and he's not too fussed about the content/quality.

Get back on topic you two and stop derailing the thread. If you want to gossip about people do it via PMs or go to a hair saloon.

And bleed_blue, you know exactly why I warned you.

Best DM in the league is a big claim to make, and it's a claim you've made many times. There is not enough evidence of performances to say Mikel is the best DM in the league, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. And by the way if you read my post I said Carlo's 2nd season, not his 1st, you said that he was our star midfielder during carlo era, that still includes 2nd season. You want to go back 4 years ago when we where a different side? Okay sure then but it's not going to do much good, if that's the debate why don't we get Drogba back? Oh that's right he's 35 years old now and not the player he once was.

I said he was the best DM in the league at the time. The league was and still is lacking world-class DMs since Scholes got old. I don't get how going back to Carlo's second season is alright but his first is just too far back especially since we were still playing the same system with the same players. But, anyway, if you want to focus on Carlo's second season, I'm happy to. Mikel was by far our best central midfielder that season. Lampard missed the first half of the season and was bad when he returned. Ramires had a terrible first season with us and Essien had some excellent performances when he came back from injury but he couldn't keep his form and went downwards from there. Mikel was our only consistent central midfielder that season and again put in hist best performances in the big games that season like against Arsenal, City and United. I know a video compilation does not tell the whole story, but it does give you glimpse of what the player is capable of. Here is a compilation of his 2010-11 season:

His ball retention skills, his strength and composure on the ball and his passing was the best for his position in the league. I remember that season was the one that he finally started getting recognition from opposition fans and pundits. I remember reading the first praise article for Mikel that wasn't on a forum or football statistics site but in the mail or sun or something like that. It was in 2011 and the article was saying that in the previous three seasons Mikel had had more passing accuracy than any other midfielder in the league and had played more forward passes than anyone else except Scholes IIRC. And he was 23 back then! If he wasn't the best DM in the league in those two seasons then who was?

In 2011-12 Song was by far the best and last season Carrick was outstanding. We've had 4 managers since 2011 who tried to make changes with changing systems and our midfield was just in shambles sometimes and admitedly Mikel's performances did drop sometimes, I'm not going to pretend other wise, but he has always shown what he is capable of. Under Robbie he was brilliant and Rafa he had some excellent performances in some top games as well, basically almost every time he started next to Ramires. Ability wise he's still up there with the best in the league, but that's probably mainly because there are no world-class DMs in the league at the time.

Ramires was not as inconsistent as Mikel, Ramires had a good patch of games, Mikel didn't. I don't rate Ramires as highly as most of the forum do, infact I hate how bad of a footballer he is at times, and I would choose Mikel over him any day if we are playing in our own half. I beleive Mikel should've started against Bayern and United, but we aren't going to have games like that all the time.

I defended Ramires and got attacked for it last season too much to not remember how inconsistent he was. In fairness it wasn't his fault. He was often asked to play a role that is alien to him while he was isolated and had no support in the pivot. Everyone who played in the pivot last season was mostly terrible and that's not just their fault but the errors in our system. Ramires can't be asked to distribute the ball and cover for the back four. But when played as a box-to-box midfielder he can, and have been, very effective.

Mikel did not have a good patch of games? He had an excellent start of the season and covered over so many gaps in Robbie's system. Go watch the games against Arsenal, United at the Bridge and especially Tottenham at WHL. He was key to our good start to the season and I can assure you he was one of the first names on the sheet.

Lets face it Mikel wont fit into the 4-2-3-1, that's not his style, it requires more fluidity, not someone staying back all the time. One thing you need to stop doing is saying stuff like 'great' and 'amazing' it's silly, if he was putting in 'great' performances he would be at Madrid or Barcelona, so lets quit the bull shit. Mikel has let the side down defensively, he's no good in the holding midfield role either, he isn't good off the ball, he can't mark quality players, he can't deal with pace. Mikel can't cover space, it's a huge weakness.

4-2-3-1 is just how you set up your players, how you actually play is a completely different matter. For example, both we and Bayern played 4-2-3-1 in the CL run in 2012, but you can't say that the same players that fit our system would have fit Bayern's. Now, at the moment, we don't play anywhere near as advanced as Bayern play. It's too early to judge, but knowing Jose and watching the first four games we're playing with a fairly deep 'block' with little spaces between the pivot and the CBs and the wingers and the fullbacks. Unlike Bayern who try to congest their whole team in 25-30 meters of the pitch around where the ball is in a tiki-taka manner and try to win the ball back in their opponents half, we do use two of the front four to apply pressure to the opposition defense when off the ball, but the rest of the team goes fairly deeper while we try to win the ball back in our own half so we could exploit the spaces left in our opposition's half with pace on the counter.

Now, for the position that we are interested in here, that is the pivot, there are two main possibilities in the 4-2-3-1: You can either play two similar players who exchange roles between one going forward and the other holding throughout the game like Schweinstiger and Martinez (again I'm using Bayern as example because they are a team that execute their tactics almost to perfection so you can clearly see what I mean). But that is very hard to implement because the two players must be completely in sync and they must know each other's games inside out because any miss communication or miss coordination between the two and the team is in trouble. The other option is to have one player holding and the other with more freedom to go forward. In this case, the one who sits deep stays close to the back four to provide cover when needed and is responsible for getting the ball out of defense while retaining possession; basically what Ramires has been trying to do in the games so far this season. I made a post a couple of pages back showing how much deeper he has been playing and how he has been playing short simple passes. The other player can make forward runs and help the front four and make late runs into the box. In the current Jose system Mikel would do very well, in fact you need a Mikel type player for this system too work which is evident by the fact that Ramires has been trying to do what Mikel usually does.

Saying he would be at Madrid or Barcelona if he is putting in great performances is just laughable. So no one has ever put in great performances and not went to Barcelona or Madrid? Why don't you quit that nonsense, mate. If he wasn't a good holding midfielder then how has he been a key player for us for over four years? You don't think that a team like Chelsea would have replaced him by now? If Jose didn't think he was a good holding midfielder then why didn't he go out and get another one this summer when he had the chance? Some world-class managers have put their trust in Mikel, so saying he is shit does not make much sense.

Teams defend as unit and if they fail they fail together. Nowadays every team defends with all 11 players with every one of them, even the striker, playing a crucial role for the system to work. Mikel makes mistakes, just like any other player, that's only normal. In fact if you look at it he makes much less mistakes than the likes of Luiz, Cahill, Iva and even Terry, but that doesn't make any of them bad players. It's true Mikel can't deal with pace, I've said so myself several times. That's why he can't play as a fullback and that's also why he can't play further up the pitch like AVB wanted, but in our current system that does not really affect his game much. Mikel does not mark players, it would be a very bad idea to ask your holding midfielder to mark a player because he will drawn out of position leaving your team exposed.

The problem is that some people never agree that a holding midfielder can have a great performance. Put Mikel aside for second because we obviously won't agree on him, but take Carrick last season for example. He put in some performances that were world-class, imo. He had games with 90+% passing accuracy, where his movement and tactical awareness was almost perfect and he completely controlled the tempo and ran everything for united, but then some people come out and say he had an average performance and that he is being overrated. Holding midfielder will always be underrated by people because they never score, assist or make goal saving tackles.

This is the Premier League, players must cover space and Mikel can't do it, the amount of players he has let go in the box, Grant Holt with Norwich springs to mind? Also Luiz wasn't as bad as you thought he was, he did the trick, he added drive that we needed, he would never fit there in the long term no way, he wasn't structured or disciplined enough, Benitez only shot him there to get the ball upfield and do something, we where only trying to win as much games as we could then and midfield was lacking so much. The fact that Mikel has been benched by so many shows that he is lacking in quality, he has shown on the pitch that he can make mistakes and he has. Mikel is and never has been world class because sometimes he can't even do his duty. He has never flourished when he needed to.

Like I said, he does make mistakes like every other player. But it's not true that every player in the PL has to have pace, you also need physically strong players and Mikel more than makes up for his lack of pace with his physical strength and ability to keep the ball under immense pressure. I don't really want to get into the Luiz in midfield thing but I have made countless long posts about what I think was wrong with that. He was too aggressive, lacking discipline and tactical awareness and his passing was just awful. Hopefully we never have to suffer through that again. I never said Mikel is world-class, in fact I've said many times that he isn't! But that doesn't stop him from being a very good player for his specific role.

5 seasons ago he was the passenger not the maestro, Lampard and Ballack did all the work in midfield, we had a great side then, it wasn't John Obi Xavi Mikel who was pulling all the strings, but for some reason only you remember it that way. He will always be overrated and underrated, and there is a reason for it, because he can't show what he is capable of, not because he didn't have the chance he did, because he failed when he got the opportunity, he lacks character and determination, and it's a huge reason why I think we should sell him.

Are you talking about the 09-10 season? If so you probably don't remember all the big games we played. Mikel was the one pulling the strings in all the big games he was just brilliant and I highly advise you download the games and watch them again especially the ones again Arsenal. It's not just my opinion. I remember ShowTime (who used to cover the PL in the middle east back then) did a special episode at the end of the season analyzing how we won the league and they highlighted the 6 games against the 'big four' in particular and talked specifically about the Mikel effect. I remember them saying he had something like 6 "assist's assist" (meaning the pass to the player who made the assist) in the 6 games. I particularly remember the very cagey game at Arsenal where neither team was creating anything but them Mikel cut the ball out, played a pass, got it back and then played the most sublime through ball to Cole who crossed to DD for the goal.

I find it very strange that you can say that he can't show what he is capable of after so many big performances in big games, starting from those six games in particular in 09-10 to the big games especially against Arsenal and City in 10-11 to the brilliant performances in the final stages of the CL and FA cup in 2012 to the performances he put in against Arsenal, Tottenham and united (on three different ocassions in the league and FA cup) last season.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

^EDIT :

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Mikel's a good midfielder at the wrong club. He'd be very well suited for a 3 man midfield..

Hope Mourinho gives him a kick up the ass, we need him to play like he did in previous seasons if we seriously wanna win the PL.

The problem with mikel is simple.

1. He thrives in a 4-3-3, 3 man midfield.

2. He is not a natural DM, he's not an AM, he can only play as a CM. His peformances for nigeria from the youth stages till now is proof of this

3. He enjoys possession football. Proof of this is his best season came under ancelloti who was a total possession manager. Even in nigeria now, he is the star player because of the possession football we play.

This is what makes him limited, he can't change his game to suit a counter attacking style, he is not a mobile player which is required for a pivot. His main attribute is to keep possession as long as chelsea don't play possession, mikel will struggle. Only ancelloti played his true game.

[zolayes 14,489]

The problem with mikel is simple.

1. He thrives in a 4-3-3, 3 man midfield.

2. He is not a natural DM, he's not an AM, he can only play as a CM. His peformances for nigeria from the youth stages till now is proof of this

3. He enjoys possession football. Proof of this is his best season came under ancelloti who was a total possession manager. Even in nigeria now, he is the star player because of the possession football we play.

This is what makes him limited, he can't change his game to suit a counter attacking style, he is not a mobile player which is required for a pivot. His main attribute is to keep possession as long as chelsea don't play possession, mikel will struggle. Only ancelloti played his true game.

that looks a good rational unbiassed summary

[The only place to be 11,313]

Another member was banned for arguing with him while Choulo19 kept sprouting racist banter all over the forums.

Must've missed that.

It's a shame because this is a fantastic community with a diverse range of views but Choulo seems to want to ruin it. It's why I've stopped logging on so much and won't donate a single penny more to the running of this site.

Quite how he's still got a position of power around here when he started that thread about me (which he then had to close because it was such a embarrassment to this site) is beyond me. You don't get the same thing with other mods/admins.

[bleed_blue 136]

Get back on topic you two and stop derailing the thread. If you want to gossip about people do it via PMs or go to a hair saloon.

And bleed_blue, you know exactly why I warned you.

Yeah. You keep on posting factually incorrect claims and banning/warning people who point out those inaccuracies. You have the license mate.

[Kojo 4,676]

Get back on topic you two and stop derailing the thread. If you want to gossip about people do it via PMs or go to a hair saloon.

And bleed_blue, you know exactly why I warned you.

I said he was the best DM in the league at the time. The league was and still is lacking world-class DMs since Scholes got old. I don't get how going back to Carlo's second season is alright but his first is just too far back especially since we were still playing the same system with the same players. But, anyway, if you want to focus on Carlo's second season, I'm happy to. Mikel was by far our best central midfielder that season. Lampard missed the first half of the season and was bad when he returned. Ramires had a terrible first season with us and Essien had some excellent performances when he came back from injury but he couldn't keep his form and went downwards from there. Mikel was our only consistent central midfielder that season and again put in hist best performances in the big games that season like against Arsenal, City and United. I know a video compilation does not tell the whole story, but it does give you glimpse of what the player is capable of. Here is a compilation of his 2010-11 season:

His ball retention skills, his strength and composure on the ball and his passing was the best for his position in the league. I remember that season was the one that he finally started getting recognition from opposition fans and pundits. I remember reading the first praise article for Mikel that wasn't on a forum or football statistics site but in the mail or sun or something like that. It was in 2011 and the article was saying that in the previous three seasons Mikel had had more passing accuracy than any other midfielder in the league and had played more forward passes than anyone else except Scholes IIRC. And he was 23 back then! If he wasn't the best DM in the league in those two seasons then who was?

In 2011-12 Song was by far the best and last season Carrick was outstanding. We've had 4 managers since 2011 who tried to make changes with changing systems and our midfield was just in shambles sometimes and admitedly Mikel's performances did drop sometimes, I'm not going to pretend other wise, but he has always shown what he is capable of. Under Robbie he was brilliant and Rafa he had some excellent performances in some top games as well, basically almost every time he started next to Ramires. Ability wise he's still up there with the best in the league, but that's probably mainly because there are no world-class DMs in the league at the time.

I defended Ramires and got attacked for it last season too much to not remember how inconsistent he was. In fairness it wasn't his fault. He was often asked to play a role that is alien to him while he was isolated and had no support in the pivot. Everyone who played in the pivot last season was mostly terrible and that's not just their fault but the errors in our system. Ramires can't be asked to distribute the ball and cover for the back four. But when played as a box-to-box midfielder he can, and have been, very effective.

Mikel did not have a good patch of games? He had an excellent start of the season and covered over so many gaps in Robbie's system. Go watch the games against Arsenal, United at the Bridge and especially Tottenham at WHL. He was key to our good start to the season and I can assure you he was one of the first names on the sheet.

4-2-3-1 is just how you set up your players, how you actually play is a completely different matter. For example, both we and Bayern played 4-2-3-1 in the CL run in 2012, but you can't say that the same players that fit our system would have fit Bayern's. Now, at the moment, we don't play anywhere near as advanced as Bayern play. It's too early to judge, but knowing Jose and watching the first four games we're playing with a fairly deep 'block' with little spaces between the pivot and the CBs and the wingers and the fullbacks. Unlike Bayern who try to congest their whole team in 25-30 meters of the pitch around where the ball is in a tiki-taka manner and try to win the ball back in their opponents half, we do use two of the front four to apply pressure to the opposition defense when off the ball, but the rest of the team goes fairly deeper while we try to win the ball back in our own half so we could exploit the spaces left in our opposition's half with pace on the counter.

Now, for the position that we are interested in here, that is the pivot, there are two main possibilities in the 4-2-3-1: You can either play two similar players who exchange roles between one going forward and the other holding throughout the game like Schweinstiger and Martinez (again I'm using Bayern as example because they are a team that execute their tactics almost to perfection so you can clearly see what I mean). But that is very hard to implement because the two players must be completely in sync and they must know each other's games inside out because any miss communication or miss coordination between the two and the team is in trouble. The other option is to have one player holding and the other with more freedom to go forward. In this case, the one who sits deep stays close to the back four to provide cover when needed and is responsible for getting the ball out of defense while retaining possession; basically what Ramires has been trying to do in the games so far this season. I made a post a couple of pages back showing how much deeper he has been playing and how he has been playing short simple passes. The other player can make forward runs and help the front four and make late runs into the box. In the current Jose system Mikel would do very well, in fact you need a Mikel type player for this system too work which is evident by the fact that Ramires has been trying to do what Mikel usually does.

Saying he would be at Madrid or Barcelona if he is putting in great performances is just laughable. So no one has ever put in great performances and not went to Barcelona or Madrid? Why don't you quit that nonsense, mate. If he wasn't a good holding midfielder then how has he been a key player for us for over four years? You don't think that a team like Chelsea would have replaced him by now? If Jose didn't think he was a good holding midfielder then why didn't he go out and get another one this summer when he had the chance? Some world-class managers have put their trust in Mikel, so saying he is shit does not make much sense.

Teams defend as unit and if they fail they fail together. Nowadays every team defends with all 11 players with every one of them, even the striker, playing a crucial role for the system to work. Mikel makes mistakes, just like any other player, that's only normal. In fact if you look at it he makes much less mistakes than the likes of Luiz, Cahill, Iva and even Terry, but that doesn't make any of them bad players. It's true Mikel can't deal with pace, I've said so myself several times. That's why he can't play as a fullback and that's also why he can't play further up the pitch like AVB wanted, but in our current system that does not really affect his game much. Mikel does not mark players, it would be a very bad idea to ask your holding midfielder to mark a player because he will drawn out of position leaving your team exposed.

The problem is that some people never agree that a holding midfielder can have a great performance. Put Mikel aside for second because we obviously won't agree on him, but take Carrick last season for example. He put in some performances that were world-class, imo. He had games with 90+% passing accuracy, where his movement and tactical awareness was almost perfect and he completely controlled the tempo and ran everything for united, but then some people come out and say he had an average performance and that he is being overrated. Holding midfielder will always be underrated by people because they never score, assist or make goal saving tackles.

Like I said, he does make mistakes like every other player. But it's not true that every player in the PL has to have pace, you also need physically strong players and Mikel more than makes up for his lack of pace with his physical strength and ability to keep the ball under immense pressure. I don't really want to get into the Luiz in midfield thing but I have made countless long posts about what I think was wrong with that. He was too aggressive, lacking discipline and tactical awareness and his passing was just awful. Hopefully we never have to suffer through that again. I never said Mikel is world-class, in fact I've said many times that he isn't! But that doesn't stop him from being a very good player for his specific role.

Are you talking about the 09-10 season? If so you probably don't remember all the big games we played. Mikel was the one pulling the strings in all the big games he was just brilliant and I highly advise you download the games and watch them again especially the ones again Arsenal. It's not just my opinion. I remember ShowTime (who used to cover the PL in the middle east back then) did a special episode at the end of the season analyzing how we won the league and they highlighted the 6 games against the 'big four' in particular and talked specifically about the Mikel effect. I remember them saying he had something like 6 "assist's assist" (meaning the pass to the player who made the assist) in the 6 games. I particularly remember the very cagey game at Arsenal where neither team was creating anything but them Mikel cut the ball out, played a pass, got it back and then played the most sublime through ball to Cole who crossed to DD for the goal.

I find it very strange that you can say that he can't show what he is capable of after so many big performances in big games, starting from those six games in particular in 09-10 to the big games especially against Arsenal and City in 10-11 to the brilliant performances in the final stages of the CL and FA cup in 2012 to the performances he put in against Arsenal, Tottenham and united (on three different ocassions in the league and FA cup) last season.

Mikel wouldn't in any of the other top 6 teams in the league, he wouldn't get in over Lucas, wouldn't get in over Carrick, he wouldn't get in over Toure or Fernandinho he wouldn't get in over Paulinho or Dembele and he wouldn't get in over Wilshere or Arteta.

Stop rating Mikel so highly, he didn't have great games, he was the passenger and always has been, why do you think people where expecting him to flourish in 2010/2011? Because people wanted to see more of him because he was just a passenger, he did his duty and nothing more, he always had cover and he always had much better players around him. 2010/2011 season Lampard was out half of the season but in no way was Mikel the best, once Lampard came back Mikel was on the bench for the rest of the season and that's how it worked.

If you really think Mikel made a difference that season you're sadly wrong, because once Essien, Malouda and Drogba went down hill we started losing lots of games, the bad november when we were losing to Birmingham and 3-0 at home to Sunderland, and you're trying to convince me that Mikel was our best player that season? Don't make me laugh, if the team doesn't perform then neither will Mikel and that's how it's always worked. He has never been great, he has only been able to compete in the team when he can get in it, and even then he had the likes of Ballack and Essien around him.

Now that we have lost those players look at him now, he has been terrible the past two seasons, overall bad. The final is the cheapest thing you could possibly do for your argument, and you're using it, everyone was good that final, all we did was defend. If Mikel couldn't do that then he is a Championship midfielder. We only had to defend, Mikel didn't have space to cover, we just had to park the bus, that's why Bosingwa and Kalou had good games yet you just don't get the point. As for the system 4-2-3-1 again you have missed the point, since when did I ever specifically say that formations justify the way you play? I never said that, stop picking it out like it's some flaw in my argument. Games against United and Bayern aren't going to happen very often, we aren't even going to play 10 of those games where we will be getting dominated and we have to play in our own half, so if you really think we are going to sit in our own half against the likes of Palace and West Ham then you aren't even giving me a chance in this argument.

Carrick had a 90% passing accruacy, but you know what? I can remember Carrick playing in long balls constantly, he was like Paul Scholes, he could pick out any movement up top. Does Mikel do that? No he doesn't, but what are you going to do about it? Bring up his ACON performances like you always do? Stats will now show how good Mikel is, he has a good first touch on him I'll admit, but you want to talk about passing he has gave it away a lot also, most of his passes are sideways or back to the defence, or if it is forward it's someone in lots of space right infront of him. He always plays it safe, but way to safe, his mentallity is awful, he's far too calm on the ball, he's no master at it either because he has made so many mistakes, his pass against Juventus which lost us 2 points, and remember when he got out muscled by fucking Charlie Adam against Liverpool, and they went 1-0 up? It was Cechs fault but Mikel made a meal of it he tried to shield of Charlie Adam and Charlie Adam actually out muscled him and got the ball, that is shocking for a player who is supposed to be this big strong guy of the team.

He has always been an average player, he doesn't contribtue to much, never scores goals, never makes the great passes, never benefits the team massively in defence, he's just a passenger and that's all he can get away with. You expect Mikel to be this maestro in the team saying he's putting in 'great' performance and then claiming later on in your posts that he will be the 'key' player. He can't be the key player because he doesn't do much besides play in an additional support role. And in the 4-2-3-1 when we have 4 attackers we can't do that, we can't have 'additional' players in the pivot. The only additional player is the one behind the striker, we need really good players behind who can cover space and add fluidity so they can swap roles. Mikel can't offer that, and that's why he wont be playing many games this season.

I seriously hope Marco Van Ginkel gets more games because he is better than Mikel in my honest opinion, like it or not but I like the guys attitude, he doesn't give up.

This holding midfielder role you keep referring to isn't going to happen, he lacks the pace to play there, it doesn't matter how close we play together every team gets countered, especially in this league. Mikel is a poor man marker, he can't keep track of his man, if he's going to be a holding midfielder it isn't going to work. In this system we don't need holding midfielders, we need central midfielders who are all around good. Ramires has a specific duty of covering ground and putting pressure on players, he's immense at it. The other midfielder has more say in the attack and covers many tracks and spaces, Lampard does well even for his age.

Mikel can't fit in that role and if you think he can adapt then you've got another thing coming.

The problem is with Mikel he does make other mistakes like other players your right, but Mikel doesn't make up for it, he doesn't put in good consistent performances his mistakes make him a liability because that's all he does. And sorry don't keep going on to me that no one gets his role and no one sees what he actually does, because we've had people like JDY in the past that have proven that one wrong. Not many people see that nowadays, just the ones who have great belief in Mikel. In our system we have no room for passengers, we have 4 attacking midfielders and it's not possible, we need world class players and ones who can fit in the team and do the job, Mikel can't do that.

The 09-10 season Mikel had a lot of cover, I agree that was probably his best season, because even I didn't mind Mikel then, I had great faith in him believe it or not, but then I watched him play without those players and that was that for me. When AVB was our mananger there was this debate on Mikel, and after the Laverkusen and Stoke game I had really high hopes of Mikel but then it all changed with the Valencia game and all those games after it, he just couldn't do it, he failed. He had the chance to make his spot into the team and he couldn't do it, no excuses Choulo he couldn't do it, and he has done this for the past two seasons. This isn't 09-10 anymore, that was a while ago mate, look at that team compared to the team we have now it's almost completely different. The way we play is completely different as well. In my opinion there has been a big reason why Mikel hasn't played many games and has been benched by the likes of a centre back and had less game time than a 20 year old so far.

[Kojo 4,676]

And for the love of god please stop posting this video.

I have seen people post this video about 20 times in this thread for over a year. It's a poor argument when your resorting to shotting a video on Youtube of a compilation which only shows the good things from a player.

Funny thing is the video is only 3 and a half minutes long. That's with recording all his best parts of the season, I wouldn't exactly call that good for a so called 'key' player in our team.