closed Bayern Munich 4-1 Chelsea

[Vesper 27,318]

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Most of the games in your sample size are AFTER they won the league.

Bayern were so poor less than a year ago that they needed to fire their manager.

Recency bias aside and based on a significant sample size of 2/3 seasons, we have a CL final, a CL win and one of the best ever campaigns by any PL team. Last time Bayern were in a CL final, it was in 2013. 

Not dissing on Bayern, they are a great team (obviously), and one of the best, but pool have been the best team on the planet for a couple of years. 

spin spin spin

they fucking tanked m8

and this

is just pure tosh

they went out in the first knockout round in the CL

they bare beat a dodgy Flamengo side (took added time, which was the worst performance by a UEFA team at the FWCC, other than our 1 nil loss  in 2012  to fucking Corinthians (a far better side than this Flamego team), since the first 3 FWCC's)

barely beat us in the Super Cup (pens, grrrrrrrrrrr)

they lost the CS

they lost BOTH domestic Cups

and the year before they only trophy they won was the CL (granted a big one)

so no

I am not buying you pro scouser spin

sorry

fuck victimpool

 

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

spin spin spin

they fucking tanked m8

and this

is just pure tosh

they went out in the first knockout round in the CL

they bare beat a dodgy Flamengo side (took added time, which was the worst performance by a UEFA team at the FWCC, other than our 1 nil loss  in 2012  to fucking Corinthians (a far better side than this Flamego team), since the first 3 FWCC's)

barely beat us in the Super Cup (pens, grrrrrrrrrrr)

they lost the CS

they lost BOTH domestic Cups

and the year before they only trophy they won was the CL (granted a big one)

so no

I am not buying you pro scouser spin

sorry

fuck victimpool

 

Oh. Are we counting each of the losses. Same as the 5-1 drubbing that Bayern got? And you feel thats the best team?

You can not like Liverpool and still give them the credit they deserve. 97 and 99 Pl points in the last 2 seasons. That itself should be a sign of how consistent they have been. 

"Barely beating teams" is still beating teams. You don't need to go full throttle in each game. Our 14/15 team did not, we "barely" won games 1-0, does not mean we were not the best team in the world. 

I hate them as much as you, but imho, they have been over and above any team in the past 3 seasons. Be it by consistency, clutch wins whatever metric we want to use. 

Simply put, any team that you say has been a better team, will have more losses, and fuck ups than pool. Again 97 and 99 points. Unbelievable achievement

Anyways let's agree to disagree. And let's just hope they actually tank. Just like klopp's bvb. 

[Vesper 27,318]

24 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Oh. Are we counting each of the losses. Same as the 5-1 drubbing that Bayern got? And you feel thats the best team?

You can not like Liverpool and still give them the credit they deserve. 97 and 99 Pl points in the last 2 seasons. That itself should be a sign of how consistent they have been. 

"Barely beating teams" is still beating teams. You don't need to go full throttle in each game. Our 14/15 team did not, we "barely" won games 1-0, does not mean we were not the best team in the world. 

I hate them as much as you, but imho, they have been over and above any team in the past 3 seasons. Be it by consistency, clutch wins whatever metric we want to use. 

Simply put, any team that you say has been a better team, will have more losses, and fuck ups than pool. Again 97 and 99 points. Unbelievable achievement

Anyways let's agree to disagree. And let's just hope they actually tank. Just like klopp's bvb. 

I laid out a conclusive, factual results, and statistical-based case

and your are spinning again in regards to the FWCC

it was not some bloody 1 nil 1989 AC Milan catenaccio dominance display

the dippers were on the backfoot so often

they have NOT been the best team on the planet for two years

they certainly are not now, based on their form since February

it simply is not borne out in either the trophies the first year (and tbf, this year as well, as they failed at all the biggest ones, other than the league, as the FWCC is a pushover for the Euro teams, has been for the past 13 years) we are literally the only UEFA club to blow it in that time span

the Brasil and SA Latinx teams will never have the level of players they used to, as now Europe gobbles them up like candy

the only worse UEFA performance than us was the very first edition, when Manure did not even make it to the final 

those first 3 Brasilian teams (plus Vasco da Gama , the 2nd place team in 2000) were far better than any non UEFA since, with the exception of (just our luck) that 2012 Corinthians team we faced) and that 2017 Grêmio side, which had Arthur Melo (now at Juve, but bought by Barca in 2018), Luan, Everton, Lucas Barrios (44 goals in 2 seasons earlier under Klopp at Dortmund) etc

 

 

[Puliiszola 519]

6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I laid out a conclusive, factual results, and statistical-based case

and your are spinning again in regards to the FWCC

it was not some bloody 1 nil 1989 AC Milan catenaccio dominance display

the dippers were on the backfoot so often

they have NOT been the best team on the planet for two years

they certainly are not now, based on their form since February

it simply is not borne out in either the trophies the first year (and tbf, this year as well, as they failed at all the biggest ones, other than the league, as the FWCC is a pushover for the Euro teams, has been for the past 13 years) we are literally the only UEFA club to blow it in that time span

the Brasil and SA Latinx teams will never have the level of players they used to, as now Europe gobbles them up like candy

the only worse UEFA performance than us was the very first edition, when Manure did not even make it to the final 

those first 3 Brasilian teams (plus Vasco da Gama , the 2nd place team in 2000) were far better than any non UEFA since, with the exception of (just our luck) that 2012 Corinthians team we faced) and that 2017 Grêmio side, which had Arthur Melo (now at Juve, but bought by Barca in 2018), Luan, Everton, Lucas Barrios (44 goals in 2 seasons earlier under Klopp at Dortmund) etc

 

 

Lol. So one FWCC performance makes them not the best? 

Totally disregarding 97 and 99 points in the PL. Do RM, barca have as many points despite being in a far less competitive league? 

Bayern Munich had 78 in 2018/19 and 82 in 2019/20. Total of 160 in 68 games @ 2.35 points per game. Liverpool 99+97 has 2.57 points per game. And thts a one horse race and a league 10 times less competitive than PL. Even PSG had 91 in 18/19 and 68 in 27 games this season. That's 2.44 points per game. And that league is a joke

Now that's what I would call conclusive, factual and statistical based. 

Add a CL and a CL final, there is no doubt who has been the best team in the world.

Again, agree to disagree. But there can be no doubt by any measure which is the best team in the world. And the fact that you are not saying which you think is the best team in the world in the same time period, is more conclusive as there is no way tht team has more points or better performances in the said time period (which is not since February specially when there was no football for 3 of those months 😂)

[Vesper 27,318]

2 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

 

Add a CL and a CL final, there is no doubt who has been the best team in the world.

 

lol, now you are moving the goalposts and bringing in a THIRD season

which

btw

#steamroller

 

 

2017-18 Liverpool

ZERO trophies

 

 

next after that

 

Liverpool

2018–19 season

1 trophy, failed at the other 3

 

Premier League 2nd

FA CupThird round

EFL CupThird round

UEFA Champions League  Winners

 

 

Liverpool

2019–20 season

3 trophies , (League, Super Cup, FWCC),

failed at other 4 including first knockout round CL loss, and then losses in CS, League Cup, and FA Cup

 

so,  in your 3 years (see I am being generous)

15 possible trophies

they won 4

plus the really poor last 16 game finish to the season in 2020, including being dumped out of the CL first knockout round (and were not unlucky, they were thrashed)

 

not best team on the world now, atm,, not best over the past two years, and  certainly not best not for the past 3

 

the board can decide if I am right or you are

 

 

I also will go out on a limb now, and say they do not repeat in anything

they probably win 1 trophy next season, the CS

although lets see who Arse brings in, and let's see if the scousers do not suffer injuries (and of course lets see if they get some players in too, Thiago would be a MASSIVE upgrade for a 3 or so years)

[Puliiszola 519]

3 minutes ago, Vesper said:

lol, now you are moving the goalposts and bringing in a THIRD season

which

btw

#steamroller

 

 

2017-18 Liverpool

ZERO trophies

 

 

next after that

 

Liverpool

2018–19 season

1 trophy, failed at the other 3

 

Premier League 2nd

FA CupThird round

EFL CupThird round

UEFA Champions League  Winners

 

 

Liverpool

2019–20 season

3 trophies , (League, Super Cup, FWCC),

failed at other 4 including first knockout round CL loss, and then losses in CS, League Cup, and FA Cup

 

so,  in your 3 years (see I am being generous)

15 possible trophies

they won 4

plus the really poor last 16 game finish to the season in 2020, including being dumped out of the CL first knockout round (and were not unlucky, they were thrashed)

 

not best team on the world now, atm,, not best over the past two years, and  certainly not best not for the past 3

 

the board can decide if I am right or you are

 

 

I also will go out on a limb now, and say they do not repeat in anything

they probably win 1 trophy next season, the CS

although lets see who Arse brings in, and let's see if the scousers do not suffer injuries (and of course lets see if they get some players in too, Thiago would be a MASSIVE upgrade for a 3 or so years)

You seriously DONT read anything another person writes, do you?

 

8 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Most of the games in your sample size are AFTER they won the league.

Bayern were so poor less than a year ago that they needed to fire their manager.

Recency bias aside and based on a significant sample size of 2/3 seasons, we have a CL final, a CL win and one of the best ever campaigns by any PL team. Last time Bayern were in a CL final, it was in 2013. 

Not dissing on Bayern, they are a great team (obviously), and one of the best, but pool have been the best team on the planet for a couple of years. 

I mentioned a CL final here. But dont worry, it hardly matters what I write as you are simply gonna continue with your drivel or that "i am moving goal posts"LOL

You still have not said who you think is the best team in the world over this same period. I am waiting for an answer mate. COme on. Lets see all the records of the team you think is better than them. Hahahaha. 

[Vesper 27,318]

7 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

 

You still have not said who you think is the best team in the world over this same period. I am waiting for an answer mate. COme on. Lets see all the records of the team you think is better than them. Hahahaha. 

atm Bayern

if they win CL then they are easily, in an utter cakewalk the best

IF PSG win the CL, then them (as they will have won all 5 trophies they could have and will have an easy run it to equal Pep's linear Septuple)

if neither of those win the CL, it gets really murky, and I would say that IF they had won the FA Cup, you might have then made a case to Liverpool, and if they had won the CS and the league Cup, then for sure, but they failed 4 times,2 of them part of the big 3 ( CL, main Cup,(they won the league, which is the third pat of the ultimate treble) plus the not so important CS and then LC)

I think it is almost impossible to name the best team if both PSG and Bayern fail, Shitty, if they win will try and claim it, but they were mediocre in the league <<<< so put thsi all down to be determined

last season, (2018-19) Shitty or Liverpool, its flip a coin (if Shifty had made it to the SF or final in the CL and then lost, then them for sure for sure, as they won the domestic quad  and took every trophy from the dippers save for CL

(we never discussed year by year) as you went right to naming them the best in the last TWO years

the year before, Real, in a cakewalk

some years it is just hard to say who is actually the best team, other years it is easy

as long as Bayern or PSG win the CL (I picked them preseason as the two favourites) then it will be an easy year the main 3 teams who could fuck it all up are Atleti , Shitty, and Barca

Barca and Shitty (Shitty due to their buying their way out of just punishment) are the only two teams  left that would make me angry to see win the CL

I would love to see Atletico Madrid win it finally, always have loved Simeone and I love defensive football (that is pretty obvious when you look at my player wants and see who I bash the msot (it is lamsot always for shit defence, the only I have conssitently went off on players over offence is Azpi/Emerson as a left back, Jorginho when he slows the fuck out of the game (same for Willian) and then Bats. All the others one I am very patient with in terms of offensive cockups, save for Kante and Barkley at times (CHO has played so little it is hard to judge)

[Rapkun 668]

The discussion probably deserves it's own thread, but personally I don't think it's that easy to designate the "best team in the world" especially over a long period. For starters, not every candidate for that title plays in the same league so it's difficult to judge them fairly. Obviously there's the UCL but it's a single elimination format so it's impossible to have concluding results. And even if the candidates somehow came to play in a league of their own, there's always some unpredictable factors like the fitness of the players, injuries, refereeing etc..

In recent memory, the only team I could confidently call the "best team in the world" was Pep's Barça because they were so ridiculously good that the gap between them and their peers was too big. Everyone else was debatable IMO.

Everyone have their diferent criterias to designate a winner so it's really difficult to come up with an objective answer that will satisfy everyone.

[Puliiszola 519]

10 minutes ago, Vesper said:

atm Bayern

if they win CL then they are easily, in an utter cakewalk the best

IF PSG win the CL, then them (as they will have won all 5 trophies they could have and will have an easy run it to equal Pep's linear Septuple)

if neither of those win the CL, it gets really murky, and I would say that IF they had won the FA Cup, you might have then made a case to Liverpool, and if they had won the CS and the league Cup, then for sure, but they failed 4 times,2 of them part of the big 3 ( CL, main Cup,(they won the league, which is the third pat of the ultimate treble) plus the not so important CS and then LC)

I think it is almost impossible to name the best team if both PSG and Bayern fail, Shitty, if they win will try and claim it, but they were mediocre in the league <<<< so put thsi all down to be determined

last season, (2018-19) Shitty or Liverpool, its flip a coin (if Shifty had made it to the SF or final in the CL and then lost, then them for sure for sure, as they won the domestic quad  and took every trophy from the dippers save for CL

(we never discussed year by year) as you went right to naming them the best in the last TWO years

the year before, Real, in a cakewalk

some years it is just hard to say who is actually the best team, other years it is easy

as long as Bayern or PSG win the CL (I picked them preseason as the two favourites) then it will be an easy year the main 3 teams who could fuck it all up are Atleti , Shitty, and Barca

Barca and Shitty (Shitty due to their buying their way out of just punishment) are the only two teams  left that would make me angry to see win the CL

I would love to see Atletico Madrid win it finally, always have loved Simeone and I love defensive football (that is pretty obvious when you look at my player wants and see who I bash the msot (it is lamsot always for shit defence, the only I have conssitently went off on players over offence is Azpi/Emerson as a left back, Jorginho when he slows the fuck out of the game (same for Willian) and then Bats. All the others one I am very patient with in terms of offensive cockups, save for Kante and Barkley at times (CHO has played so little it is hard to judge)

Fair enough on a lot of points.

Main thing is what weight does a person give to what criteria. For me, results throughout the season and specially in the league are far higher than trophies. Simply because trophies can be mis-leading. Taking psg and bayern as example. PSG already has a treble, but is that even worth mentioning? They are so far above any of their domestic rivals that its a given. Same with Bayern. Winning bundesliga and Pokal should be the base minimum given their class and the difference with even the 2nd best team - BVB. Hence CL becomes paramount to judge these teams. In which the recent history does favour Liverpool. 

The whole discussion and matter is so subjective. I mean none of these discussion will take into consideration that liverpool played an u23 team against villa because their first team was in another continent playing the club world cup within the next 24 hours. Priorities have to be made and more so in english football compared to any other league. And then there are the respective leagues.

Liverpool:

2019/20: P38 W32 D3 L3

2018/19: P38  W30 D7 L1

Oveall: P76, W62, D10, L4. Win% - 84.2%, PPG - 2.57

PSG:

2019/20: P27 W22 D2 L3

2018/19: P38  W29 D4 L5

Overall: P65 W51 D6 L8. Win% - 78.4%, PPG - 2.44

Bayern:

2019/20: P34 W26 D4 L4

2018/19: P34 W24 D6 L4

Overall: P68 W50 D10 L8. Win% - 73.5% PPG - 2.35

This is just an unbelievable stat and one of the main reasons for me to say they have been the best. Again very subjective and depends on person to person. But to have a better win % than PSG and Bayern in their respective leagues and that too in such a competitive league like PL, its just out of this world, imo. That Level of consistency - A1. 

Again, no wrong or right in this. But I can understand your opinion, or mine or someone else's. Different opinions and preferences define a person's choice.

[Vesper 27,318]

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Fair enough on a lot of points.

Main thing is what weight does a person give to what criteria. For me, results throughout the season and specially in the league are far higher than trophies. Simply because trophies can be mis-leading. Taking psg and bayern as example. PSG already has a treble, but is that even worth mentioning? They are so far above any of their domestic rivals that its a given. Same with Bayern. Winning bundesliga and Pokal should be the base minimum given their class and the difference with even the 2nd best team - BVB. Hence CL becomes paramount to judge these teams. In which the recent history does favour Liverpool. 

The whole discussion and matter is so subjective. I mean none of these discussion will take into consideration that liverpool played an u23 team against villa because their first team was in another continent playing the club world cup within the next 24 hours. Priorities have to be made and more so in english football compared to any other league. And then there are the respective leagues.

Liverpool:

2019/20: P38 W32 D3 L3

2018/19: P38  W30 D7 L1

Oveall: P76, W62, D10, L4. Win% - 84.2%, PPG - 2.57

PSG:

2019/20: P27 W22 D2 L3

2018/19: P38  W29 D4 L5

Overall: P65 W51 D6 L8. Win% - 78.4%, PPG - 2.44

Bayern:

2019/20: P34 W26 D4 L4

2018/19: P34 W24 D6 L4

Overall: P68 W50 D10 L8. Win% - 73.5% PPG - 2.35

This is just an unbelievable stat and one of the main reasons for me to say they have been the best. Again very subjective and depends on person to person. But to have a better win % than PSG and Bayern in their respective leagues and that too in such a competitive league like PL, its just out of this world, imo. That Level of consistency - A1. 

Again, no wrong or right in this. But I can understand your opinion, or mine or someone else's. Different opinions and preferences define a person's choice.

Bayern has one huge, built in advantage over the rest of the powerhouses (well 2 over the EPL as we still have that 2nd cup to drain off manpower resources as well, we now the only big 5 league leftw with two cups, as the Coupe de Ligue was shuttered by the French footballing association)

They only play 34 league games, so are fresher

the only downside is that the players league and overall stats are lower due to less games (only goals and assists matter in this regard)

The FA and EPL need to close down the League Cup after this coming season, as the FWCC is expanding in 2021 to 24 teams

the top EPL teams will be crushed with too many games. I think it will be possible, if you go deep into all possible cups, to play 70 or more games in one season. That is madness

[Puliiszola 519]

23 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Bayern has one huge, built in advantage over the rest of the powerhouses (well 2 over the EPL as we still have that 2nd cup to drain off manpower resources as well, we now the only big 5 league leftw with two cups, as the Coupe de Ligue was shuttered by the French footballing association)

They only play 34 league games, so are fresher

the only downside is that the players league and overall stats are lower due to less games (only goals and assists matter in this regard)

The FA and EPL need to close down the League Cup after this coming season, as the FWCC is expanding in 2021 to 24 teams

the top EPL teams will be crushed with too many games. I think it will be possible, if you go deep into all possible cups, to play 70 or more games in one season. That is madness

Exactly. But it will impact the teams from championship and below. Had read an article which said that it was a decent source of income for them. 

But FA needs to do something. Totally agree.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,776]

On 10/08/2020 at 7:10 AM, Vesper said:

Bayern has one huge, built in advantage over the rest of the powerhouses (well 2 over the EPL as we still have that 2nd cup to drain off manpower resources as well, we now the only big 5 league leftw with two cups, as the Coupe de Ligue was shuttered by the French footballing association)

They only play 34 league games, so are fresher

the only downside is that the players league and overall stats are lower due to less games (only goals and assists matter in this regard)

The FA and EPL need to close down the League Cup after this coming season, as the FWCC is expanding in 2021 to 24 teams

the top EPL teams will be crushed with too many games. I think it will be possible, if you go deep into all possible cups, to play 70 or more games in one season. That is madness

We did it in 12/13 and survived. That season we played every possible round, of every tournament barring the League Cup Final and The Cup Final. The top clubs need the League cup because they need squad harmony. They have the power, their participation cannot be compelled. They control the Premier League and the rest of English football would gladly cut off both arms rather than give up the Premier League handouts. If the Premier League said our clubs are not playing in the League Cup anymore, the football League would try to find a way to keep them in but, ultimately, their response would be 'yes sir'.

If top clubs want out they'd be out. The fact that they are still in is evidence that they've settled for the status quo. They've found an accommodation with it for now but as soon as they want out, they'll be out. I don't think we need to worry about it.

P.S. I never thanked you for the recommending Blueprint For Armageddon and The Guns of August. Both excellent. I enjoyed them a lot and learned lot. That from someone who thought he knew a fair amount on this already. If I had to choose I'd go for the Dan Carlin because he set out to tell a story so his narrative flows but the quality and depth of Tuchman's work is evidenced by the number of times Carlin quotes her.

[Vesper 27,318]

1 hour ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

We did it in 12/13 and survived. That season we played every possible round, of every tournament barring the League Cup Final and The Cup Final. The top clubs need the League cup because they need squad harmony. They have the power, their participation cannot be compelled. They control the Premier League and the rest of English football would gladly cut off both arms rather than give up the Premier League handouts. If the Premier League said our clubs are not playing in the League Cup anymore, the football League would try to find a way to keep them in but, ultimately, their response would be 'yes sir'.

If top clubs want out they'd be out. The fact that they are still in is evidence that they've settled for the status quo. They've found an accommodation with it for now but as soon as they want out, they'll be out. I don't think we need to worry about it.

P.S. I never thanked you for the recommending Blueprint For Armageddon and The Guns of August. Both excellent. I enjoyed them a lot and learned lot. That from someone who thought he knew a fair amount on this already. If I had to choose I'd go for the Dan Carlin because he set out to tell a story so his narrative flows but the quality and depth of Tuchman's work is evidenced by the number of times Carlin quotes her.

Awww, yw, I am glad you found them rewarding!!

[Valdo 583]

Cheer up lads, Bayern lead Barca by 4-1, So we aren't the only "trash side" to be beaten.  And that's at HT only.

[King Kante 1,299]

Barca just got ripped a new one.

[xPetrCechx 13,546]

Not so bad after all...