Jorginho

[El P. 1,354]

Even his short passing was bad in Arsenal game, but they pressed like crayze - credit where it's due.

But I don't think I could ever love him if he doesn't show very good long-passing ability. A think he is not offering enough currently. People are comparing him with Busquets - while he may not be great in long passing, too, I have a feeling that he is significantly better in defense and he has slightly better touch.

Many players could be Jorginho-type players, it's just that teams rarely play with out-and-out/pure deep lying playmaker. They mostly play with some kind of Fernandinho - Brozović balanced type. From what I am seeing in last 2 months I don't think Jorginho is more useful than Brozović or Fernandinho.

Hope Higuain will shake him up with his movement.

[Vesper 29,081]

5 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

So, when Herrera marked Hazard out of the match a couple of seasons ago, are we saying the same thing about Hazard?  He's not capable of overcoming it?  As in most sports, if you want to change the whole shape of your defence and make 1 player spend the whole match following another, that other player is going to have a tough time and he will need team mates to move in to the space and help out because there are gaps now.

It's the same for Jorginho.  It means that he has to get some help in the build up.

Our 2 worst matches were against a a 442 diamond midfield.  2 strikers mark the CBs, man marking in midfield.  The space is down the wings where we can actually create a overloads.  But teams don't mind giving us the ball out wide, because we can't cross and have no one getting in to the box anyway.  That's on Sarri to fix.

But, having your game reduced because you've got a player acting like your shadow has happened to a lot of players who are better than Jorginho and it does suggest that he will pose you problems if he's left alone (or so these opposition managers believe).

More the system I think, than down to Jorginho alone, but I do have to say, after watching him half a year in the EPL, he is not up to speed defensively, which cascades over into the other 2 MF'ers in the  4 3 3 Sarri system.

His passing of late has also be atrocious in terms of being the cauldron from which truly offensive football in boiled..

IMHO (and I am certainly not the football goddess) he has regressed from the beginning of the year.

I am far from the only human seeing this, judging off myriad numbers of commentary videos I have seen.

 

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

18 minutes ago, Vesper said:

More the system I think, than down to Jorginho alone, but I do have to say, after watching him half a year in the EPL, he is not up to speed defensively, which cascades over into the other 2 MF'ers in the  4 3 3 Sarri system.

Sure, but just because it's not one extreme, doesn't mean it's the other.  As always, it's probably somewhere in the middle.  And what I'm saying is that he's clearly not useless.  If he were useless you could leave him alone and sit back waiting for him to misplace a pass.  They are clearly trying to take his time away.

I don't think he's regressed, I just think he's not playing that well right now.  I think he, along with the rest of the team, will look better when we are moving off the ball.  It's much easier to man mark when everyone is just standing around and it's much easier to pass the ball when the receiver isn't just standing next to his marker.  He could also use a day off too.  This is his first season with a second useless cup and no winter break.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

Logical fallacy.

The fact they CAN take him out means the system is fucked and he is not capable of overcoming this.

Jorginho isn't a player who can have 80% of the opposing team trying to take him out and still win

unlike

Those guys are super rare.

[Vesper 29,081]

1 minute ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

Sure, but just because it's not one extreme, doesn't mean it's the other.  As always, it's probably somewhere in the middle.  And what I'm saying is that he's clearly not useless.  If he were useless you could leave him alone and sit back waiting for him to misplace a pass.  They are clearly trying to take his time away.

I don't think he's regressed, I just think he's not playing that well right now.  I think he, along with the rest of the team, will look better when we are moving off the ball.  It's much easier to man mark when everyone is just standing around and it's much easier to pass the ball when the receiver isn't just standing next to his marker.  He could also use a day off too.  This is his first season with a second useless cup and no winter break.

Do not think he is useless at all, I just think he is not the linchpin to build the system around with the current squad (and the board will NOT, IMHO give Sarri the Napoli level players to make his 4 3 3 work)

He clearly needs a break as well. Fuck those Zenit cunts for trying to grab €55m from us for Paredes.

[Vesper 29,081]

5 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

Those guys are super rare.

they are!!!

Was kind of a cheap shot on my part, as Jordan is arguably the greatest athlete in modern history.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

Just now, Vesper said:

Do not think he is useless at all, I just think he is not the linchpin to build the system around with the current squad (and the board will NOT, IMHO give Sarri the Napoli level players to make his 4 3 3 work)

He clearly needs a break as well. Fuck those Zenit cunts for trying to grab €55m from us for Paredes.

No, I don't think that YOU think he's useless (I've seen him in your 'meh' category).  It's more like a statement against some of the narrative going around that are saying he's useless.  Like rio Ferdinand saying "I don't see what he offers".  I mean, it's funny.  If he could see it he'd be a coach like some of his other peers.  But, he's just using his name to get a TV gig (fair play).  don't confuse me for saying that I think he's been stellar.  But, I think he'll look like a decent player (what he is) when all of the moving pieces are working properly.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

3 minutes ago, Vesper said:

they are!!!

Was kind of a cheap shot on my part, as Jordan is arguably the greatest athlete in modern history.

I'm actually reading "The Jordan Rules" right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jordan_Rules_(book)

There's this part in it where a player is telling the author about a conversation that he was having with Jordan about a particular shot and MJ says "You just hang in the air for 3 seconds and after the defender goes past you, it's an easy shot" (or something to that effect)

[Vesper 29,081]

16 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

No, I don't think that YOU think he's useless (I've seen him in your 'meh' category).  It's more like a statement against some of the narrative going around that are saying he's useless.  Like rio Ferdinand saying "I don't see what he offers".  I mean, it's funny.  If he could see it he'd be a coach like some of his other peers.  But, he's just using his name to get a TV gig (fair play).  don't confuse me for saying that I think he's been stellar.  But, I think he'll look like a decent player (what he is) when all of the moving pieces are working properly.

The meh was very recent, after watching for last half year. I thought he was great at first, now have become disenfranchised a bit.

Again, hardly my number one concern. I think if we had better supporting/attacking staff it would take the pressure off.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

4 minutes ago, Vesper said:

The meh was very recent, after watching for last half year. I thought he was great at first, now have become disenfranchised a bit.

Again, hardly my number one concern. I think if we had better supporting/attacking staff it would take the pressure off.

Right now, man-marking with a diamond is killing our build up.  When players start moving off the ball better, teams won't really be able to do that consistently.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2016/12/03/sarris-napoli-in-rampant-home-victory/

 

[Vesper 29,081]

1 minute ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

Right now, man-marking with a diamond is killing our build up.  When players start moving off the ball better, teams won't really be able to do that consistently.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2016/12/03/sarris-napoli-in-rampant-home-victory/

 

Good find!

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

Just now, Vesper said:

Good find!

I was all over that site when we were getting Sarri.

And this one to watch matches:

https://footballia.net/ (you have to register, but it's free)

I didn't want to just see highlights of Napoli's play.  I wanted to watch full matches to see what their play looked like when it wasn't all Harlem Globetrotter-esque highlights.

[Vesper 29,081]

Just now, Sideshow Luiz said:

I was all over that site when we were getting Sarri.

And this one to watch matches:

https://footballia.net/ (you have to register, but it's free)

I didn't want to just see highlights of Napoli's play.  I wanted to watch full matches to see what their play looked like when it wasn't all Harlem Globetrotter-esque highlights.

Full matches are the ONLY way to truly judge, and multiple ones at that.

It is how I try and rate players too.

It is how I fell in love with Junior Firpo and Nicolo Barella.

 

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

Just now, Vesper said:

Full matches are the ONLY way to truly judge, and multiple ones at that.

It is how I try and rate players too.

It is how I fell in love with Junior Firpo and Nicolo Barella.

 

Create an account.  There are tons of matches on there.

 

[LAM09 6,811]

Saw a post in the comments on WAGNH

If he's so useless and shit, why is every team trying to man-mark him out of the match?  

The team is set up to go through him. It has very little to do with his qualities, which you seem to be alluding to.

 

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

15 minutes ago, LAM09 said:

The team is set up to go through him. It has very little to do with his qualities, which you seem to be alluding to.

 

Vesper and I had a conversation about this.

I'm alluding to him not being shit or useless.  

[LAM09 6,811]

Vesper and I had a conversation about this.
I'm alluding to him not being shit or useless.  

What is he, as of now?

Number of passes is the only stat I see followed by his name.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

We are supposed to be taking advantage of the space other teams leave when they overload the center just to mark Jorginho. But our players don't know how to play quick one touch football, they love hugging the ball and we have poor players on the wings to exploit the space when the center is overloaded. Sarri has to buy his Alba and Alves to combat this because Jorginho is his Busquets, they maintain the tempo of possession and control the whole game for the team.

Every coach that has Jorginho in their team will start him 9 times out of 10, I don't think he's as bad as people are making him out to be.